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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: deCypher]
    #14989848 - 08/28/11 06:41 AM (10 years, 5 months ago)

Glad you agree.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990012 - 08/28/11 09:07 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

That's a very intense read and I agree with much of it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990029 - 08/28/11 09:24 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
He's smart and he's had no more education than a high school drop out.



"I was so smart when I was a kid that I learnt that I was dumb fast."

--CM


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Poid]
    #14990067 - 08/28/11 09:51 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility.  He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security.  Nice guy, real friendly.  He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #14990433 - 08/28/11 11:50 AM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility.  He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security.  Nice guy, real friendly.  He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.




He should write a children's book, "Learning HTML with Uncle Charlie."


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990682 - 08/28/11 12:41 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility.  He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security.  Nice guy, real friendly.  He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.




He should write a children's book, "Learning HTML with Uncle Charlie."




Sure why not.  Everyone needs an Uncle Charlie sometime in their lives.

Shit if I told you to jump off a bridge and you did and landed on someone swimming in the water and killed them who murdered whom?

Silly.  He's a whack I would play cards with him and take soups just for fun.  Watch him get all pissed and puffed up.  You think Charlie would be a bad ass in the pen?  LOL.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14990696 - 08/28/11 12:44 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
You think Charlie would be a bad ass in the pen?  LOL.




What "prison"?

:awehigh:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990700 - 08/28/11 12:46 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
You think Charlie would be a bad ass in the pen?  LOL.




What "prison"?

:awehigh:




Any prison he has been at.  Corcoran, Pelican Bay etc.  He is an amusement in jail.  You think you couldn't get his goat along with soup?  Or maybe win a pie from him.  That would piss him off.


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Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14990717 - 08/28/11 12:49 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

I don't understand the soup and pie reference. Maybe you're hungry, dawg?

By "what prison?" I was quoting Manson whenever interviewers ask him how it feels to be behind bars and he suggests to them they should re-evaluate their definition of space.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990740 - 08/28/11 12:55 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)



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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990754 - 08/28/11 12:58 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
I don't understand the soup and pie reference. Maybe you're hungry, dawg?

By "what prison?" I was quoting Manson whenever interviewers ask him how it feels to be behind bars and he suggests to them they should re-evaluate their definition of space.




Obviously you are more interested in his BS them answer than what really goes on behind bars.  Carry on you obviously know Charlie.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14990813 - 08/28/11 01:14 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

The Whale said:
I don't understand the soup and pie reference. Maybe you're hungry, dawg?

By "what prison?" I was quoting Manson whenever interviewers ask him how it feels to be behind bars and he suggests to them they should re-evaluate their definition of space.




Obviously you are more interested in his BS them answer than what really goes on behind bars.  Carry on you obviously know Charlie.




I never professed to know anything about the man, or to be "more interested in his bullshit." You're the cat that cruised up in here talking about how you met him (my, Captain, what big balls you must have!), and then make sly and competitive jokes about my ignorance of the real situation. Go strut your peacock somewhere else.

On a different and classy note, this part is hilarious:



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990822 - 08/28/11 01:16 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Whale said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
I actually met Charles Manson at a California Correctional Facility.  He was in Corcoran CA at the time in medium security.  Nice guy, real friendly.  He was having some problems developing his website so they needed some outside assistance.




He should write a children's book, "Learning HTML with Uncle Charlie."





I've just had a long chat about Charles with Veritas and am going to revise my opinion somewhat. Not as to some of what he said being true but what he was about in saying it. 

I was convinced after the conversation that CM is a psychopath and that he was culpable in the murders.  His ability to speak as a sage was calculated to have an effect on the audience and due to his survival needs.  He of course studied these guru's and knew the effect their words have on people and would shine a certain light on how he was hoping to be viewed.  He is what Veritas calls and organized psychopath due to his great intelligence and was able to manipulate a group of unorganized psychopaths into a coherent action that they would have never been able to take on their own.  He was the master mind behind their actions.  He did not want to take the consequences for these actions himself and so persuaded others to do the actual murders. 

Veritas recommends the book Helter Skelter for those interested in a somewhat sensationalized but basically accurate account of the events and CMs mind set.  I'm going to read it myself. 

This does not change my views on Charlie being right about society and his parents nurturing these psychopathic traits. 

Very interesting stuff. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
    #14990831 - 08/28/11 01:18 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Damn, Ice. Nice 180. I hope you're still confident about your enlightenment though?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990855 - 08/28/11 01:23 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Of course I'm not. But my ability to change my mind when presented with compelling evidence speaks well for me I think.  Being wrong and being willing to change directions when necessary  has been one of the most important steps in my personal growth and learning. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleThe Whale

Registered: 11/02/10
Posts: 2,384
Loc: Flag
Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
    #14990879 - 08/28/11 01:30 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Of course I'm not. But my ability to change my mind when presented with compelling evidence speaks well for me I think.  Being wrong and being willing to change directions when necessary  has been one of the most important steps in my personal growth and learning. :thumbup:




Aw, come on, man. Wars are waged on conviction. Unstable truths and skepticism isn't good for the trigger finger. Who's going to protect us?

Kidding, glad you changed so quickly on a whim. That's actually fun to have your perspective and viewpoints bend around like a flexible woman. Mental stagnation is for the birds.

Now, get away! I'm trying to lull unsuspecting children into learning about gurus so they too can become organized psychopaths and seek revenge on Holywood [sic].


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InvisibleSly Stone

Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Icelander]
    #14990889 - 08/28/11 01:32 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I was convinced after the conversation that CM is a psychopath and that he was culpable in the murders.





Yay! :cheer:

I don't believe anything Charlie says. He is just acting like he is in control.

I read Helter Skelter about 30 years ago.


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InvisibleThe Whale

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Posts: 2,384
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: Sly Stone]
    #14990917 - 08/28/11 01:39 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

From: http://www.allthewayalive.com/One_World_Order/one.html

LIE - Charles Manson is a murderer. The assumption that Charles Manson is some kind of murderer has been so widely and blindly accepted that many people regard it as a fundamental truth. Manson's picture graces the covers of numerous books on mass murder. Media interviewers assume that he is a killer. (Geraldo to CM: "You're a mass-murdering dog.") Yet Manson has never killed anyone. The prosecution never claimed that he killed any of the persons for whose murders he was convicted (He was never present at the Tate residence; he left the LaBianca residence before anyone was killed; he was not present when either Gary Hinman or Shorty Shea was killed.). And aside from some wholly unsubstantiated rumors (e.g. that he shot someone in the head with a .45 in Death Valley) there is no evidence that he ever killed anyone in a murder that he wasn't charged with.


LIE - Charles Manson wanted to be a rock and roll star. In American society celebrity and attention have become so important to so many people that anyone who excels in certain fields (especially the fields of music, motion pictures, television, sports) can achieve a position of status and adoration that was formally reserved for great statesmen, military heroes, and members of royal families. In America today, recognition, in any form, is taken as greatness. Because this "cult of celebrity" is so much a part of the contemporary American psyche it is plausible to many people that fame and approval are desired by everyone.
Thus is Manson supposedly affected by the influences and yearnings of American society. But Manson is not a part of that society, and nothing in his history demonstrates that he ever had a desire to be well known. To the contrary, all of his behavior indicates a desire to get away from society and live in the total obscurity of the desert.

LIE - Prior to December, 1969 there was a group of individuals known as "The Manson Family". The people at Spahn Ranch never referred to themselves by any collective name. (There was a musical group at the ranch called "The Family Jams".) The term "Manson Family" was coined by the news media, adopted by the prosecution, and has been used since as a convenient way to categorize a group that in fact never existed in any organized form.

LIE - Charles Manson was the undisputed "leader" of that group. Since there was no group, there was no leader.

LIE - Manson and his associates abused drugs. While the people at Spahn Ranch did use substances such as marijuana, LSD, mescaline, peyote, and psilocybin, there was no widespread use of any drugs such as cocaine, amphetamines, or any of the spectrum of drugs commonly known as "downers". This fact is well documented by the statements of even such pro-prosecution people as Paul Watkins. Manson was known to run people off who abused drugs. Tex Watson and Susan Atkins have both stated in their books that their use of speed was hidden from the other people at the ranch. No substantial amount of any kind of drug was ever seized during any of the numerous police raids on Manson and his associates.


LIE- The motive for the Tate/LaBianca killings was to ignite "Helter Skelter". This is an important lie since it supposedly points the finger of guilt at Charles Manson and demonstrates that he had a personal motive for the Tate/LaBianca murders to take place. Motive is important, for while a prosecutor is not required to show motive they usually do because: a. it is usually pretty obvious, and b. motive is strong circumstantial evidence of a person's guilt. (Actually, it is more than that. It is an absolute requirement, one of the three things a person always has when they commit a crime. The other two are means and opportunity.) But conversely, lack of motive is strong circumstantial evidence of a person's innocence. Bugliosi, immediately assumed Manson's guilt and then arranged all the "evidence" to suit that premise. No other version of the crime or interpretation of any of the evidence was even considered. Unfortunately, the D.A. had trouble finding any motive tying Manson to the crimes. A large part of Helter Skelter, over 60 pages, is devoted to overcoming this troublesome flaw in the "Manson is guilty" scenario. And the only motive Bugliosi could come up with was the literally unbelievable 'helter skelter' motive. Briefly, this motive is as follows: Manson and his "family" were white racists who hoped to provoke a race war by committing atrocity murders against whites which would be blamed on blacks. The ensuing outrage over these murders would cause whites to retaliate, thus beginning the war ("Helter Skelter"). While this war was raging Manson and "the family" would be waiting it out in a bottomless pit in Death Valley. (The "bottomless pit", as presented by Bugliosi, is just one aspect of the 'helter skelter' motive which, if truly believed by Manson et. al., would have rendered them psychotic and probably incompetent to stand trial.) The blacks would win the war but not know how to run the world, so they would have to hand the power over to the only white people left on earth: Charles Manson and his "family". Literally fantastic.
The real motive was to get a brother, Bobby BeauSoleil, out of jail by committing "copycat" murders that would convince the authorities that BeauSoleil could not be guilty of the murder (of Gary Hinman) for which he had been arrested on August 6, 1969. This motive is much more realistic and has much more circumstantial support than the DA's fantastic 'helter skelter' motive. It's the real motive. There's only one thing wrong with it from the prosecutorial point of view: It is not a personal motive for Charles Manson.

LIE - Manson's father may have been black. Bugliosi offers this allegation in his book as a possible and convenient explanation of Manson's alleged hatred of black people (Shades of Hitler's Jewish grandmother!). It is a ridiculous contention. In the first place, Manson is totally lacking any of the physical Negroid features that one would expect to observe in a mulatto. In the second place, Bugliosi bases this allegation on the questionable premise (itself based on old and probably inaccurate records) that the "colored cook Colonel Scott" was Manson's father. But even if the mysterious Colonel Scott was Manson's father, it is unlikely that he (Scott) was "colored". To see this, one would only have to examine the newspaper articles from the Ashland, Kentucky Daily Independent that covered the murder of Colonel Scott's brother, Darwin Orell Scott, in May of 1969. The photograph of Darwin Scott (the brother of Manson's supposed father) that accompanies the articles is clearly of a white man.

LIE - Manson and his associates may have been responsible for as many as 35 murders. The basis for this lie is a single statement made during an LAPD interview with Juan Flynn on August 18, 1970. "(Manson) admitted -- he boasted -- of thirty-five lives taken in a period of two days." That's it for the "evidence" of additional murders beyond the nine for which convictions were obtained. Bugliosi spends over ten pages of Helter Skelter listing murders he hints that Manson or his associates may have committed, but there is no real evidence to support any of these contentions unless you believe the premise "Well, these murders happened around the same time and Manson and his friends were homicidal maniacs, so they must have done them." Here we will address three of Bugliosi's examples:
1. Darwin Orell Scott; Ashland, Kentucky; May 27, 1969 - Darwin Scott was found hacked to death in his modest apartment on May 27, 1969. Apparently Manson's motive for this murder was that Scott was the brother of his alleged father, "Colonel Scott". Despite the claims of several Ashland residents that Manson was in the area around the time of the death, even Bugliosi admits that Manson was probably in California on the day of the murder. Newspaper articles about the crime say that Scott was known to have large sums of money in his apartment and that local police believed money was the motive for the slaying. Scott, who had a record for breaking and entering and forgery, may have been involved in the area's illicit liquor trade. Police found 86 fifths and 28 pints of whiskey in his apartment.
2. Joel Dean Pugh; London, England; December 1, 1969 - Joel Pugh was found in a London hotel with his throat and wrists slashed. Pugh is usually described as the husband of Sandra Good. In fact they were never married. Although Pugh is also described as a "former Manson Family member" in Helter Skelter, he never met Manson or any of the other so-called Family members. After Joel Pugh's death his parents journeyed to London to satisfy themselves with the official verdict of suicide. After checking all the medical records (Pugh's father was a doctor at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota) and the files at Scotland Yard they were satisfied that the death was, indeed, a suicide.
3. Marina Habe; Los Angeles, California; December 30, 1969 - This one is easy. There is simply no evidence whatsoever to connect anyone from Spahn Ranch with the murder of Miss Habe. But she was killed in Los Angeles, so Bugliosi included her as a possible victim of the "Manson Family".


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale] * 1
    #14990965 - 08/28/11 01:48 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Kidding, glad you changed so quickly on a whim. That's actually fun to have your perspective and viewpoints bend around like a flexible woman. Mental stagnation is for the birds.


A three hour in depth conversation is not a whim. You throwing in that jab is evidence of your attachment to your POV here. :lol:  I do it all the time myself so I'm not just picking on you.  And comparing me to a woman is another jab and shows bias towards the opposite sex. :lol:

Veritas is one of the most accomplished psychologists I've ever met, especially in the field of abnormal psychology which is her special interest. All the time we were having our conversation I kept thinking how much  I would have enjoyed having you there to hear what she was saying and allowing you to question her.  My post was just a drop in the bucket.

I still admire much of what Charlie has to say. I'm just not  believing that those words belong to him on any true emotional level.

Many psychopaths are superior liars due to lack of normal guilt shame reactions. They can often easily pass a lie detector test for those reasons.  Lying does not threaten them even on a subconscious level.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Charles Manson: as a prophet and a shaman [Re: The Whale]
    #14990977 - 08/28/11 01:51 PM (10 years, 4 months ago)

Let's all not forget that Manson drove the killers to the house of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca and then held them at gunpoint as he instructed Tex Watson to tie them up.  Then he left before his family members stabbed Leno LaBianca 27 times and Rosemary LaBianca 41 times

Then he was with Bruce Davis and Steve Grogan as he instructed them to murder Shorty Shea.  Shorty was cut up 9 times and buried

For these crimes alone, Manson is to be despised.  These were real people.  These were people just like your loved ones.  They had emotions and feelings and family and friends who loved them, just like your loved ones.  What's worse is that they did absolutely nothing to deserve this.













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