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Meph
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Humans and laws
#1496250 - 04/26/03 04:13 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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As more and more humans colonized the earth and formed societies, it is normal that laws were installed, allowing people to live together in an organized manner. Sometimes I ask myself: "In my perfect world, would laws exist?" No. In my perfect world, laws would not exist. Note that this does not make of me an anarchist, because I believe in living without laws in a world of love, sharing and peace. However, this would require drastic changes in the nature of man. I see laws as an effective remedy against the flaws and hateful instincts of human nature; and in my perfect world, those flaws (vengeance, desire, jealousy...) would not exist and no actions or rules would be needed to force men and women to act in a rightful and just manner. Since we are not perfect, we need people to make sure things go smoothly. We need to be organized and numbered, categorized and sorted. We are not yet advanced enough to be totally independent. And since there are so many of us, we need to group, have leaders, laws and governments for the process to be taken to a larger scale without too many problems.
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Edited by Meph (04/26/03 04:19 PM)
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496266 - 04/26/03 04:17 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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wow....if we were pefect, and if we didnt have (vengeance, desire, jealousy...) we would be like robots. without negative emotions, we couldnt recognize the positive ones, and we would drone all day long and walk in circles because our existentialist angst would increase 10 billion times.
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496292 - 04/26/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I see laws as an effective remedy against the flaws and hateful instincts of human nature
How exactly are they effective?
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Meph
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Quote:
wow....if we were pefect, and if we didnt have (vengeance, desire, jealousy...) we would be like robots. without negative emotions, we couldnt recognize the positive ones, and we would drone all day long and walk in circles because our existentialist angst would increase 10 billion times.
Like robots? Not necesserily. A pure soul is not a robot.
Are you saying that it's our bad character traits that make us good human beings? Is the glass half empty or half full? I think you're just seeing it the other way around. The opposite makes more sense to me, but I'll let you explain.
And what use is there to recognizing our positive character traits if we have no bad ones?
Sure, mabye we should thank the rain for letting the sun come out once in a while. But I took the freedom of walking out of the limits of the possible. Rain will be there no matter what, it's part of the way the world works. But if things were perfect, the sun would never go away.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496312 - 04/26/03 04:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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im saying, if all our emotions and our mind was simplified so that we didnt have a choice between good and evil, if we didnt have these flaws, our lives would be pointless.
what is a pure soul? give me one real-life example. nobody is perfect or pure....and somebody was...it would be creepy.
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Revelation]
#1496342 - 04/26/03 04:38 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I see laws as an effective remedy against the flaws and hateful instincts of human nature
How exactly are they effective?
You could put laws into two main categories: laws that exist to prevent accidents, and laws that exist to scare people from doing things that are considered wrong, such as stealing, killing and hurting others.
For the first category, the laws concerning road transportation are a good example. If you're doing 100mph on a 30mph street, an accident has more chances of happenning than if you had followed the law. That's why it's there.
A law that makes killing others illegal is, in my opinion, perfectly acceptable, looking at the world we're living in. There will always corrupted people killing for fun or for fame, and those laws are there just to prevent that kind of disaster from happenning.
If there were no laws, the world would be chaotic. There are too many bad people out there to tolerate anything and everything.
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Meph
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Quote:
im saying, if all our emotions and our mind was simplified so that we didnt have a choice between good and evil, if we didnt have these flaws, our lives would be pointless.
There are many types of good and many types of evil. Are all good people the same? We'd still get to make choices even if we were perfect.
And what is the point of our lives, now that we have the choice between good and evil? I'm curious.
Quote:
what is a pure soul? give me one real-life example. nobody is perfect or pure....and somebody was...it would be creepy.
Well, you just understood my point. I said, "But I took the freedom of walking out of the limits of the possible. Rain will be there no matter what, it's part of the way the world works.". Meaning that I understand that there is no such thing as a pure soul. But it would be nice. I'm just dreaming out loud.
And I'm liking it.
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496373 - 04/26/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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World without laws: People kill people. World with laws: People kill people.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496375 - 04/26/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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if pure souls existed and we were perfect I would kill myself because of boredom. then I would go to heaven, which (in this reverse universe of yours) would be earth. then I would be in paradise....not that perfect-clean-hell you speak of.
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Revelation]
#1496381 - 04/26/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
World without laws: People kill people. World with laws: People kill people.
I agree. But if a law can stop just one person from doing something bad, then, in my opinion, it's justified.
Sure, people will kill each other no matter what. But don't tell me it wouldn't happen more often if there were no laws...
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Meph
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Quote:
if pure souls existed and we were perfect I would kill myself because of boredom.
So I guess you're the kind of person who's entertained by violent and gory shows on television.
If you think love is boring, you need to go out.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496385 - 04/26/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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no, im the type of person that is entertained by infinite freedom.
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496388 - 04/26/03 04:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm not sure about that. Couldn't it be argued that creating a law actually encourages people to break said law?
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atomikfunksoldier
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and the occasional vampire porn film
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Revelation]
#1496396 - 04/26/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not sure about that. Couldn't it be argued that creating a law actually encourages people to break said law?
Anything can be argued.
Yeah, some people will see laws as challenges. But most won't. Not everybody is self-centered and too proud of themselves. Not everybody likes to prove others wrong for the heck of it, because it makes them feel good.
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Meph
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Quote:
no, im the type of person that is entertained by infinite freedom.
Infinite freedom = no laws.
And a law-less system would only work in a world where people never do wrong. But you said you didn't want that, because it would be boring.
I smell contradiction.
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496406 - 04/26/03 05:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sorry I thought this was a discussion board...
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496408 - 04/26/03 05:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Infinite freedom = no laws"
what???? let me elaborate- by infinite freedom, I am describing the human mind, we can think of whatever we want and do whatever we want to do (physical laws abiding) this includes:
being a nice person and growing flowers
being a mean person and drowning puppies
im not reffering to social freedoms.
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Revelation]
#1496410 - 04/26/03 05:08 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sorry I thought this was a discussion board...
It is...
Why don't you help me understand your point, instead of attacking me? That really seemed like a last resort, desperate post...
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496429 - 04/26/03 05:19 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Okay. I didn't mean to attack you though . (I really didn't)
My point: Human nature is human nature. Why divide it into what we should do and what we should not do. Why judge human nature in that way?
Does the animal kingdom not function well enough without laws?
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Revelation]
#1496433 - 04/26/03 05:21 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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no it doesnt, owls are always victimizing and murdering mice,
viruses committ genocide
forest fires destroy thousands of homes
-i think we should impose our human laws on nature, so that maybe...one day, the world will be peaceful. no more shall the fledglings have to suffer.
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Dogomush
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I like going to the local all organic vegetable and overpriced hippy juice store. I love the way they market their products, always talking about mother nature and the bounty and love of the earth mother. And then I think about rotting diseased corpses on rainy days... oh wait, no that doesn't exist, and if it did, then it's not natural, no only picking fruits on sunny days is mother nature.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Dogomush]
#1496446 - 04/26/03 05:29 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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all the evil of the world is a product of humanity....and somehow...humans transcend the universe and are independant of everything.
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Dogomush
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my thoughts exactly.
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Meph
Synesthesiac

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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Revelation]
#1496448 - 04/26/03 05:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Okay. I didn't mean to attack you though . (I really didn't)
It's all good . I'd hate to see such a good discussion turn into a flame war!
Quote:
My point: Human nature is human nature. Why divide it into what we should do and what we should not do. Why judge human nature in that way?
Why? To make this world a better place. Some actions bring nothing but suffering, so making them illegal can't hurt. At least we'll have tried.
Quote:
Does the animal kingdom not function well enough without laws?
Yes, but the human world is different, in the sense that we are capable of things that are much worse than animals. In a blink, we could destroy this planet and everything that's on it. Sure, that's just an extreme, but to a smaller scale, negative actions are still to be avoided. Until people wake up and decide to make each other happy, I'll live with the laws and shut my mouth.
Note that I'm speaking in general. Some laws really are stupid, like drug prohibition laws. Laws aren't perfect either. Nothing is. But a little murder prevention here and there can't do us any bad, considering the traits of the modern occidental human nature...
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Meph
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Quote:
no it doesnt, owls are always victimizing and murdering mice, viruses committ genocide forest fires destroy thousands of homes -i think we should impose our human laws on nature, so that maybe...one day, the world will be peaceful. no more shall the fledglings have to suffer.
There's a difference between basic survival and plain vengeance. Not knowing how to make the distinction between the two takes away most of your credibility.
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Edited by Meph (04/26/03 05:40 PM)
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Dogomush]
#1496467 - 04/26/03 05:39 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I like going to the local all organic vegetable and overpriced hippy juice store. I love the way they market their products, always talking about mother nature and the bounty and love of the earth mother. And then I think about rotting diseased corpses on rainy days... oh wait, no that doesn't exist, and if it did, then it's not natural, no only picking fruits on sunny days is mother nature.
You and atomikfunksoldier don't seem to understand that I know evil and crime are, for the moment, an inevitable aspect of the world. I'm just saying that it would be nice if it was otherwise.
Wouldn't you like to leave all the doors in your house unlocked, knowing that nobody would come to steal your belongings?
I would, just like everybody else, rather live in a world based on trust rather than rules and laws; however, considering that we are capable of doing evil, rules and laws are necessary, or people will not hesitate to kill and rape each other. Until then, I'm allowed to dream of a flawless world where everything functions by itself, no rules or laws needed.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496484 - 04/26/03 05:47 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"There's a difference between basic survival and plain vengeance. Not knowing how to make the distinction between the two takes away most of your credibility"
exhibit a- felines.
"Wouldn't you like to leave all the doors in your house unlocked, knowing that nobody would come to steal your belongings?"
-my door is always unlocked
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496497 - 04/26/03 05:52 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm just not sure that creating laws is the way to discourage certain kinds of behaviour. One look at our society tells us that it plainly isn't. The prisons are packed, mang.
Are the words 'justice' and 'revenge' synonymous?
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Meph
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Quote:
-my door is always unlocked
Well, that's a risk I'm not willing to take just yet. There are still too many theifs out there.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496521 - 04/26/03 06:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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well....you have to live the changes you want to see my friend....even ghandi knew that.
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Revelation]
#1496523 - 04/26/03 06:03 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm just not sure that creating laws is the way to discourage certain kinds of behaviour. One look at our society tells us that it plainly isn't. The prisons are packed, mang.
I'd rather have prisons packed with murderers than have them roam free on the streets.
Quote:
Are the words 'justice' and 'revenge' synonymous?
It depends how you see it. If the law puts someone in prison, I don't see it as revenge. I see it as removing someone who is potentially dangerous from the free world, to protect others; it might also discourage others. If it doesn't, well, at least the world will be made a little more secure. Revenge is personnal, justice isn't.
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Meph
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Quote:
exhibit a- felines.
"Yes, but the human world is different, in the sense that we are capable of things that are much worse than animals."
Do you read half of my posts?
We are much more dangerous than cats. So preventive measures must be taken to avoid evil actions.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496529 - 04/26/03 06:07 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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do you know anything about cats? if cats had nuclear weopons, we would be all be dead.
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ClosetCase
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(shakes head)
This good thread has now fallen into the gutter and down the sewer.
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Dogomush
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: ClosetCase]
#1496591 - 04/26/03 06:37 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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has it? I thought he was making a strong point...
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Meph
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Quote:
do you know anything about cats? if cats had nuclear weopons, we would be all be dead.
The question is not "if cats had nuclear weapons", the question is "do cats have nuclear weapons?"
A little common sense wouldn't do you any bad. We humans are more dangerous, because we are more advanced and capable of mass killing, unlike cats, because they lack the intelligence required to invent and bulid weapons.
Plus, you're getting away from the point. If you want to talk about this, create a thread about the killer instincs of cats and how they want to exterminate world population. Because this is not what we were talking about.
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Dogomush
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496738 - 04/26/03 08:25 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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his point has something to do with cats half-killing mice and then batting them around for pleasure and tormenting them until they're dead.
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Dogomush]
#1496750 - 04/26/03 08:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"A little common sense wouldn't do you any bad. We humans are more dangerous, because we are more advanced and capable of mass killing, unlike cats, because they lack the intelligence required to invent and bulid weapons"
do you not understand my point? its very basic.
this discussion is about human nature, and how you want humans to be flawless, pure souls.
my argument against this is that:
a-that would ruin the concept of being human
and
b-humans cannot be singled out as the only flaw in the universe.
i am just using "cats" to illustrate this point, its an analogy.
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Dogomush]
#1496754 - 04/26/03 08:31 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
his point has something to do with cats half-killing mice and then batting them around for pleasure and tormenting them until they're dead.
You had to add to it, didn't you?
Are any of you two reading my post? I'm not even going to back myself up, because I'm sick of repeating myself because you can't read properly. Take your time, post something intelligent and I will be glad to answer.
Until then, I'll just wait until someone else comes up with something that is worth discussing.
Evolving?
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496785 - 04/26/03 08:42 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"post something intelligent and I will be glad to answer."
haha......man, heres your problem: you have an ideal, this ideal has blinded you from other possibilities, and when those possibilities are challenged, instead of truly considering them, you disregard them as "unintelligent", this is a problem alot of idealists have........an inability to think critically about their own beliefs.
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Meph
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Quote:
do you not understand my point? its very basic.
this discussion is about human nature, and how you want humans to be flawless, pure souls.
my argument against this is that:
a-that would ruin the concept of being human
Remember me calling it a "drastic change"?
It's not something that's possible, if we look at it from a realistic point of view. But through my expression of my views on my perfect world, all I'm trying to explain is the reasons laws are needed in this world..
Quote:
b-humans cannot be singled out as the only flaw in the universe.
And? Does that mean we have the right behavior? An intelligent being posesses the ability to be different, to stand out, and take over its instincts. When humans are truly intelligent, we will stop acting following our basic survival reflexes.
Quote:
i am just using "cats" to illustrate this point, its an analogy.
You can't compare apples and oranges. Cats are nowhere near being humans! They have different behaviors and a different conscience, but you're making an analogy between the two?
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atomikfunksoldier
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496850 - 04/26/03 09:13 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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analogy: Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
the similarity, both animals have the ability to be destructive and malicious.
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Meph
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Quote:
"post something intelligent and I will be glad to answer."
haha......man, heres your problem: you have an ideal, this ideal has blinded you from other possibilities, and when those possibilities are challenged, instead of truly considering them, you disregard them as "unintelligent", this is a problem alot of idealists have........an inability to think critically about their own beliefs.
Until your 10th reply or so in this thread you did not have a point. You are only passing comments that are totally far from the message I am trying to get you to understand.
I am, unlike you said, pretty good at looking at a situation or point of view from many angles. However, you are making a point that is not clear or structured, and based on a very distorted version of what I said.
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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Meph
Synesthesiac

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Quote:
analogy: Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.
the similarity, both animals have the ability to be destructive and malicious.
Mabye, but are you saying it's okay to be destructive and malicious because cats are, and because it's part of our instincts?
Cats are not a danger. Humans are.
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496919 - 04/26/03 09:59 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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the point im trying to make is that......this perfect world you describe..in my opinion, would have no meaning, our lives would be useless, because we would be such simplistic beings.
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Meph
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Quote:
the point im trying to make is that......this perfect world you describe..in my opinion, would have no meaning, our lives would be useless, because we would be such simplistic beings.
How is a world of trust and love meaningless and useless?
Simplistic beings? It's much harder to be trustable and caring than untrustable and careless...
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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Meph
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well....you have to live the changes you want to see my friend....even ghandi knew that.
Leaving doors unlocked is a consequence of the change. I want people to be trustable, and then I will leave my door unlocked.
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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atomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1496947 - 04/26/03 10:15 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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How is a world of trust and love meaningless and useless?
Simplistic beings? It's much harder to be trustable and caring than untrustable and careless...
trust and love do not exist if there is no distrust and hate. that is the nature of the universe. in order to recognize black you need white.
therefor, if you took away all of humanities flaws, we would be drones...there would be no point to love because we wouldnt know what love was
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Anonymous
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Well done to all!
Quite a conversation with everyone playing nice.
The moderator likes! 
Cheers,
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ClosetCase
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I disagree. Trust and love can exist without hate and distrust. Only the absence of love is needed to know what love is and that it exists, not it's opposite. I can easily tell that I love some people and have no feeling for others. But hate is part of our nature...
All of humanities flaws don't need to be eliminated to have a utopia. In fact, I find people's flaws sometimes are the greatest things about them. Look at nature. It's great because of the infinite uniqueness in everything.
-------------------- "as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.." "well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"
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Meph
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Quote:
trust and love do not exist if there is no distrust and hate. that is the nature of the universe. in order to recognize black you need white.
therefor, if you took away all of humanities flaws, we would be drones...there would be no point to love because we wouldnt know what love was
I understand where you're coming from. I agree that living well is much more enjoyable if you've been through pain and suffering. We all need hard experiences to teach us the value of life; but why should those hard experiences be caused by others? Even if we were perfect, hard times could still affect us. What about floods, fires and hurricanes?
There is always something to work on, always something to fix, to make better. If we were perfect, we could focus on space travel and eliminating poverty instead of wars and crime.
The sky is the limit.
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: ClosetCase]
#1497787 - 04/27/03 11:32 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
All of humanities flaws don't need to be eliminated to have a utopia. In fact, I find people's flaws sometimes are the greatest things about them. Look at nature. It's great because of the infinite uniqueness in everything.
Mabye all we need is a good balance?
What we need is open mindedness... any open-minded person can still hate, but they will take the time to sit down and explain the problem instead of going nuts and hurting others...
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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Meph
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: ]
#1497794 - 04/27/03 11:34 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well done to all!
Quite a conversation with everyone playing nice.
The moderator likes! 
Cheers,
I'm interested to know what you think on the subject!
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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Murex
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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Meph]
#1497796 - 04/27/03 11:36 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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If we were perfect, we could focus on space travel and eliminating poverty instead of wars and crime.
If we were perfect, we wouldn't have to focus on space travel. We would be further along than that.
-------------------- What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems? What if all the world you think you know, Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection, Is it all you want it to be?
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Meph
Synesthesiac

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Re: Humans and laws [Re: Murex]
#1497807 - 04/27/03 11:39 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
If we were perfect, we could focus on space travel and eliminating poverty instead of wars and crime.
If we were perfect, we wouldn't have to focus on space travel. We would be further along than that.
Elaborate?
It was just an example though. I was saying that we could do things that are constructive instead of destructive.
-------------------- I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator. Demonstration: 152.
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