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OfflineHBS
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The problem I see regarding people and spirituality
    #1495778 - 04/26/03 02:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There are many points to bring up, so I have no doubt that my ideas are going to intertwine and become a mass chaos, so bear with me  :smirk: I generally speak using stream of consciousness, because I tend to find it a lot easier than to plan what I am going to say

Also remember that EVERYTHING I post is my own opinion which I am not trying to force upon everybody else since everybody has a different perception of this subjective reality

When the average person thinks about the word spirituality, most likely the first things that come to their minds are images from movies of buddha, thoughts of nonsense, people sitting and doing nothing in a weird position, and the over-commercialised 'god'.

This is the first part of the problem.  Religion and spirituality have become commercialised to the point where Jews for Jesus knocks on your door asking for money, and you can go to the toy store and buy a jesus action figure.  Essentially, it's all become a big joke to everybody.

BECAUSE society has begun subtely 'teaching' people that religion and spirituality are a joke, it's hard to bring up the subject with most people because they will already have preset responses to it.  They'll instantly become closed-minded, putting all sorts of symbols in place of what is actually being said by the other person.

Beyond that, society and the government constantly embeds in our heads that the world is a very 'real' place (hey you can knock on wood and feel and hear and see it!) with set boundaries that by no means can you ever go beyond, and if you try then whatever you will find is wrong.

The 'system' of needing to get up every day and go to work, make money to 'live', pay your bills, etc. etc., are all in place in order to create a set order (hence, the 'system').  Obviously, the government needs order because order creates a sense of peace ... it keeps people grounded in an objective reality so that no radical thoughts can be born (remember how scared the government was by LSD in the 60's?  It sure wasn't because of whether it could 'fry' your brain ... )

The government makes you fulfill obligations all the time so that you are constantly kept watch on not to do anything that threatens their authority, which even means contesting whether that chair in your field of view is really a chair or not.

However, for multiple reasons the government LETS you do such things as drink alcohol at 21 and smoke at 18, because, first of all, it's a big profit for them.  Secondly, it APPEASES the people, because they now have a drug they are ALLOWED to take in order to calm themselves after a hard day of work.  Beyond that, you can go to a store and buy a million choices of materialistic things to keep you 'happy' ... for about 5 seconds until the 'new' toy comes out ...

Essentially, the government created a worldwide puzzle where every piece fits according to the way the GOVERNMENT wants you to live.

Life isn't necessarily going to school, learning 'concensus education', going to college, picking a major, and doing that major everyday of your life in order to 'live'.  That's only ONE path of life, and it's the path the government tells you is the right path to take -- because it's so organised.

Now to show how this ties back in to the problem with said people and spirituality.  Spirituality is it's own path of life, and this path is not any more 'pure' or 'real' than the path that Mr. CEO is taking, it's just different.  It's only the path less travelled.

The average person cannot even CONCIEVE that anything beyond this reality exists, much like how somebody who has never tripped before can fathom what a million years of peace or hell can feel like.  So if they cannot even percieve it, how could they ever experience it?

Secondly, they are drawn in by the media and society and the government, to essentially become no different than robots.  What do I mean by this?  Talk to the average person about drugs, and he will spew out lines from the government as if Uncle Sam himself was talking to you.  The person in front of you isn't really talking, he's reacting the way the government TOLD him to react.  Most of the time, he won't even hear or CARE about your opinion, because Uncle Sam told him that whatever you tell him is 'WRONG'.  He cannot fathom that you can ever be right, because that switch in his brain was most likely permanently flipped.

The government is constantly finding new ways to keep people satisfied with what I consider 'bare minimum reality', by doing as little as they can.  They don't want anybody to sit and meditate all day, because they consider that 'unproductive'.  Productive just means you are appeasing society with your efforts.  One ant in a giant ant hill, all doing the same thing for the same queen ant.  The government's way of telling you that by sitting and meditating or going for a hike in the woods when you 'should be doing your work' is wrong is by saying that you are UNPRODUCTIVE.  Yet another switch in your brain flipped by the government, not by you, to tell you that what you are doing is wrong.

If the government is flipping all these switches for people, then no longer do people have any control over themselves ... but they don't KNOW that they don't have control over themselves because the government told them that they do have choices.  They just are, again, blind to the fact that their choices far far exceed what they can even comprehend.

I can go on for a long time, but I don't feel like making your eyes bleed  :smirk:

I hope this was worth your time, I don't often post in S&P but I'm going to start now because I am so into it all ... comments/critiques/anything? 


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Offlinenubious
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Registered: 10/20/02
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: HB]
    #1495888 - 04/26/03 02:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Damn fucking strait!!

It's been said time and time again, but I don't think I've ever seen it put together so descriptively accurate.  To the point yet metaphorically enhanced in the right places - angered yet calm and collective..  BRILLIANT!

Seriously though, what do YOU plan to do about it?  Start a revolution?  I highly doubt it, but if you do, gimmie a call ..  I got your back...
That's the problem with the way things are - everyones willing to talk about it yet no ones willing to do anything ..  and why is that?  Because it's time and effort you need to spend slaving away to make the rich richer, and the poor poorer...  If I were on the upper side of it I'd almost think that's a pretty good fuckin' scheme they got going on - of COURSE they're going to try to suppress change..  what would YOU do in those shoes...

The thing is, change doesn't happen overnight - shit takes time, but don't you worry..  the ball is rolling ..  People have complaining about restlessness more and more over the years and eventually something's gonna snap and shits gonna be snowballing so fast your digitized rollex wont be able to keep up!  I'm not saying WE'RE ever gonna see it, but I'm no ruling that possibility out....

All I can say is thank you for illustrating how I've been feeling in such a fashon that tops what I could have ever hoped to achieve.  With or without your permission, I'm saving it on my hard drive. :wink:


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Offlinethelox
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Registered: 03/06/02
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: HB]
    #1495901 - 04/26/03 02:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree and dig what you wrote. You can tell when people aren't thinking for themselves
or have a closed mind. I actually went on a two hour hike today and it
was so peaceful. I don't remember the last time I could look 360 degrees and see no signs of civilization.
It felt so alive. I can't wait to try it on shrooms. I find myself more and more wishing I could just spend my life
trying to understand what exists past our human senses


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OfflineHBS
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: nubious]
    #1495919 - 04/26/03 03:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you for your comments =)

I am not sure what is to be done about it, that IS the eternal question, which those who agree with this should be thinking about ...

What I myself am doing individually is not allowing myself to fall to preconceptions and experiencing life the way I want, whether people are angry at me for it or whether they even refuse to ever talk to me. I have begun a while ago, and people are noticing it, and not everybody (especially my family) is happy with it. But, as empathetic as I am, I am not sacrificing my own self and beliefs for somebody else, because they are obviously not open enough to accept who I am.

If somebody can't accept who I am, with or without believing what I believe in, then that is not a person that is worth talking to. I accept EVERY view of reality down to hardcore christianity, though I do not necessarily BELIEVE in any of it.

The problem lies within people needing not only their voice to be heard, but that their voice become holy word (pushing thoughts and beliefs onto others instead of saying 'It's here for the taking if you'd like to participate')


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OfflineHBS
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: thelox]
    #1495926 - 04/26/03 03:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Every person whom I have ever taken with me on a hike, even those who are truly closed-minded, has found that it has brought them some degree of peace to which they have never experienced before

It's something I recommend to EVERYBODY ...

Sadly, there are still those who will be like 'I'm bored, there's nothing 'to do' here ..."


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OfflineNewSpore
Just Starting toSee the Light

Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: HB]
    #1496001 - 04/26/03 03:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

HB
I am glad you posted.Thank you for your thoughts. I agree with alot of what you see. I fought it for a long time but if the student wants it, the teacher will appear, when it comes to facing yourself and the way one truly sees the world.
I wonder if it is true to say "awareness is the booby prize"? I firmly believe that staying true to your beliefs, however they arrived and grow then, change over time is the most important part of our journey. One verse which comes from Judeo, Christian beliefs is "Give to Ceaser what is Ceasers and give to God what is Gods" This was answered when asked what to do regarding Rome's domination,occupation and unreasonalble taxes., I use this same belief today. I see so much control, manipulated truths for profit (to many areas to mention)unfair treatment of the poor(which they creating) and unfortunate in our country and the world. It can get to you. I see, try to smile not get angry, and refocus on the truth as I see it. I hope more will be revealed.........


--------------------
Be in truth and watch the magic happen.
SBP TEK


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OfflineSWAY
SurrealPhantasmicSubConscious

Registered: 04/12/03
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: NewSpore]
    #1496169 - 04/26/03 05:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Wow!
I think i've tried to say what u said in a half a dozen posts and it was poorly worded and you put those ideas into words as well as or better than i coulda dreamed!

I do believe that 'reality' is some sort of mainstream trick, cuz reality is something thats based on boundaries and i doubt there are any real boundaries for sure cuz NOTHING is for sure, the only things that are for sure is what YOU BELIEVE, so what you believe becomes true (for you), and i do believe that the government is partly responsible (maybe you mean the 'government' as in some high powerful and greedy people that want everyone to only see and live in a 2d world, or maybe christians or 'god' or.. etc)

I do believe somebody doesn't want us to sit around and ponder and ask questions about things we dont understand, so we don't get smarter or more powerful than them or expand our minds in ways that would be unsafe and hazardous to them and their control over us, so they brainwash us.. for example, 'winners don't do drugs' haha thats too bad cuz im a loser and im rebellious so i'll do em, but most of society is going to just let their life be controlled by the boundaries and rules our government or "____" sets for us, .. So its like we're rats in a cage

What am i going to do about it? i'm going to question every fucking thing i dont understand or don't like or feel should be questioned, im going to try to tear down and destroy these boundaries that are implanted in our minds, and i willl come up with ideas like this that most people consider to be crazy and tell some people that i consider to be intelligent and open minded and might actually go somewhere with it

your inspiring

S W A Y


--------------------
?People keep searching for happines in the outside, what they don't know is that it's in the inside?
?In an infinite universe, anything that can exist, must exist? Bear
?To think too long about doing a thing often becomes its undoing? Eva Young


Edited by SWAY (04/26/03 07:09 PM)


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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: SWAY]
    #1496691 - 04/26/03 09:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It is all up to the individual plain and simple. If a person chooses to live like a sheep than a sheep he will be. We all have a mind that interfaces reality and it is up to the individual to make use of it. At what point in history did people not face problems and oppressors? I don't disagree with you HB, government runs the game to an extent and most citizens are more than willing participants, but its their responsibility to question and act. Society makes psychedelic mushrooms illegal but look at our community here, we come together and thrive because the experience is stronger than the lies set against it. I'm not worried about spirituality or the psychedelic experience being eliminated because as long as there is something meaningful to be found in them they will never go away or be completely co-opted. The mind is what got our species this far and we will continue to use it or go over the collective cliff, I'll just try to do the best I can as I see it and act accordingly.


--------------------

"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


Edited by AislingGheal (04/26/03 10:48 PM)


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OfflineHBS
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: SWAY]
    #1496705 - 04/26/03 10:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

When I refer to the government, I refer to those who are in charge, the ones who are the first and last in making decisions, especially regarding legality

Quote:

I do believe somebody doesn't want us to sit around and ponder and ask questions about things we dont understand, so we don't get smarter or more powerful than them or expand our minds in ways that would be unsafe and hazardous to them and their control over us




Yes, I believe this as well, but notice when you say this to any average Joe they call you a paranoid freak and start laughing at you ... even milder, just arguing the dangers of pot with Joe will make him uneasy and defensive ...

Quote:

'winners don't do drugs



I remember this not only from 80's arcade games, but many public urinals have a little tag in the bottom that says 'don't do drugs' ... truly unbelievable ... I wonder if whomever was behind that all ever bothered to realize that not only anti-depressants and caffiene and aspirin are drugs, but food itself is a drug, and all of the above are just as dangerous as illicit drugs, if not worse than most.

It's funny, because if you argue this fact with somebody, they might say 'well yea but you take them in MODERATED DOSES'

'Um, yea, well if you take most illicit drugs in moderated doses you'll be most like about as unhealthy as those drugs, so what's your argument again?'

Quote:

What am i going to do about it? i'm going to question every fucking thing i dont understand or don't like or feel should be questioned, im going to try to tear down and destroy these boundaries that are implanted in our minds, and i willl come up with ideas like this that most people consider to be crazy and tell some people that i consider to be intelligent and open minded and might actually go somewhere with it





Excellent. Never accept what's given in front of you, because all you are doing is experiencing a symbol of what's 'actually there', instead of it itself in it's pure form.

The sad thing about having such a perspective as this is that you'll start feeling truly alienated from the world if you look at it the wrong way ... most likely, the majority of people you meet in your life will not think in this way, and thus it's hard to have a conversation with them, sadly you might even feel that talking to them is just like talking to a wall with preset responses ...

But again, it all depends on your perspective. Even if I have fewer acquaintances that I care to be with, at least I can relate with them rather than carry on long conversations about things I consider to be boring and pointless ...


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OfflineHBS
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1496716 - 04/26/03 10:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Agreed on all points, and:

Quote:

I'll just try to do the best I can as I see it and act accordingly




I think that's the strongest and most 'intelligent' way to live. As simple a concept as it is, it's still something a lot of people just don't grasp, but again, it doesn't mean that 'we're right' or that 'they're wrong' ...

I honestly don't believe in right and wrong, though some things I consider MORALLY wrong, but again, even morals are all defined by the percieving participant ...


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OfflineSWAY
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: HB]
    #1497437 - 04/27/03 09:01 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"The sad thing about having such a perspective as this is that you'll start feeling truly alienated from the world if you look at it the wrong way ... most likely, the majority of people you meet in your life will not think in this way, and thus it's hard to have a conversation with them, sadly you might even feel that talking to them is just like talking to a wall with preset responses ..."

I believe what you say about that, but.. does that mean that it isn't worth trying to go in another direction in the way we think? They may only see a 2d world with a few prime shades of color where we would see a 3d world with the whole spectrum which would allow us to see from their point of view, we could live the way we want to and try to pass on what we have learned and how we saw things to others, they may think we are crazy but if they sometime finally started realizing that it can be great that way then they might just turn

If everybody is afraid to change or be who they want to be or see how they want to see then where are we going to get? Maybe there are some others that feel the same way about things and just feel strange and unconnected to the rest of the world and could use some reassurance that what they are doing and how they are living is great because not only is it unique and brave but it also could change the world if you got others to see as well

One mind trying to break these boundaries is a big step, but two minds is twice as much, and three minds..., so i think we need to liberate our minds and souls and share what we find with eachother so we can all someday be able to stand up and say "Nobody tells me how to view the reality, nobody gives me guidelines on how to live my life or whether or not i should question what i don't understand, and whether or not reality is something thats inescapable, and whether or not there are certain boundaries that bind me to society and limit me from doing what i really want to do"

All it takes is one influencial brave person that is willing to share how he feels to the rest of the world, cuz this 'reality' just might be some sort of illusion or dream that we might wake up from or move on from

S W A Y


--------------------
?People keep searching for happines in the outside, what they don't know is that it's in the inside?
?In an infinite universe, anything that can exist, must exist? Bear
?To think too long about doing a thing often becomes its undoing? Eva Young


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InvisibleEffedS
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Re: The problem I see regarding people and spirituality [Re: HB]
    #1497487 - 04/27/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good post. Its funny I see those same problems.

Down with the Dominators

http://www.island.org/


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