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Anonymous #1
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New Atheists and the Internet
#14947160 - 08/19/11 12:02 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Note: Read this whole article before responding. Lets keep the discussion civil. Thanks in advance.
First, let me get one thing out of the way. I am from a non-theistic tradition. I don't believe in a god or gods, but I do believe in divinity (pantheism to be exact.) I am not a fan of magical thinking nor do I deny science in any way. The reason I am stating this in the beginning is because of the false dichotomy rolling around the web that you are either with them or against them.
Second, this is not a rant against atheism. Technically, I am one. But I don't go around calling myself an "a-Canadian" because I was born in the states. I happen to have a great amount of respect for Daniel Dennett, especially his very atheist book "Breaking the Spell." Atheism as a belief (or a non-belief, depending on your definition of 'belief') is not the subject here.
New Atheism was defined by Simon Hooper as the belief that:
Quote:
religion should not simply be tolerated but should be countered, criticized, and exposed by rational argument wherever its influence arises.
but is behooves my argument to focus not on certain academics who fit this criteria, but to focus on a growing internet trend that I am sure many on here will know. Hell, you can find a clique of them trolling the Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology forums right here on shroomery. They are intolerant, uncreative and viscous. These are not ad hominem attacks, as these qualities can be shown in their language and tone. Mind you, I am not refuting their arguments, though I will point out that they are repetitive, uncreative copy-pasta from one of their "gurus."
Here is an example ponderance: "Is Religion and Existentialism a Crutch?"
First of all, existentialism (outside of the Catholic variety and Kierkegaard) is an atheistic philosophy. It has even been called "the ethics of atheism" by Jean Paul Sartre. I am not cherry picking this, as three of the top four existentialist philosophers (Nietzsche, Sartre and Heidegger) were all vehement atheists (again, Kierkegaard being the only theist, but his philosophy including the belief that any "god" could not be found through reason.)
But here is the most important point. Look at the use of the word "crutch." A crutch is an implement used by a person who is handicapped so the implication is that the religious type are somehow inferior. While discussing this topic, new atheists engage in group think bully mentality, speaking with condescension and derision to anyone that objects. So what is the purpose of such a debate? I fail to see why any intelligent person, atheist or not, would engage in such a debate as the question includes an invitation to intellectual bullies. Those that do disagree with obvious perspective of the querent is in for quick assault using very simple arguments that have been read from books.
What the goal of these gangs is I cannot tell, as converting a person to their point of view is impossible in the atmosphere of hostility they engender. Some have argued that it is understandable that they are angry because they have been marginalized for centuries. Okay, it is understandable. But understanding your hatred does not condone it. Others have argued that many of their kind are on the fence, and through solidarity they are showing their strength, encouraging the fence-sitters to join their ranks openly. This is also wrong-headed. Were one of those "fence-sitters" to openly express their state, the derision would be as equally fierce. Finally is the argument that some atheists are "in the closet." There is some validity to this. But why would aggression trump pride? Pride and aggression are not co-relevant. On the contrary, the defensiveness and passive aggressive quality of these arguers highlights an inferiority complex, whether or not due to the argument in question.
There is currently a billboard in the headlines that reads "Being a good person doesn't require God. Don't believe in God? You are not alone." I have an enormous respect for the sentiment of this billboard. It should be understood not just by the atheists who are its intended audience, but by the theists who fear godlessness leads to immorality. It does not. (Notice that in the above quote, god is capitalized. Me being a non-believer, I do not capitalize, because there is no need for deference. God is not a title for me, but a concept and concepts are not capitalized.) However, I prefer people that lead by example. If atheists can be good people without god, why are the vast majority of new atheists on the internet behaving like bullies and trolls? Why are religious videos on youtube filled with sacrilege without argument at all? The answer lies in reactionary thinking.
Although I am arguing about the new atheist movement, there is sure enough blame to be placed on the monotheisms of the world. Their reign of terror has lasted three thousand years (ancient Israel was not truly monotheistic until around 1000 bce.) Recently, there seems to be an upsurge of insanity from their camp. With 9/11 (which used religion, but was a political event) and the intelligent design debacle to the recent attempts to break (or continue the ignorance of) the separation of church and state. A religious radical can easily out-crazy any new atheist. But, I would contend that the recent reintroduction of crazy religious behavior is itself in response to a growing secular society. Al Qida was founded because of western secularism intruding on their turf.
Personally, I see both the new atheism and the recent growth of radical theism as birth pangs of a new open secular society. It is to be expected. But the false dichotomy must be recognized. There are atheists who are spiritual, and there are theists who have fallibilistic outlooks. There are atheists who respect religious traditions for their art and believe that their contributions to human civilization are valuable, and there are theists who compartmentalize their faith when discussing the natural world, knowing that only science can here bring truth. I am not arguing for or against either perspective. I am arguing for civility from both sides. Especially atheists because, in my opinion, you are more in touch with our necessary future.
When feminism first began as a solid movement in the early seventies, there was a lot of anti-male rhetoric. After five thousand years of oppression, it was necessary to bend the bar farther than neutral to get across the point (much in the way that the black power movement did more for civil rights than the peaceful protests, in my opinion.) There were always men who wanted to support the women's movement, but didn't because they were frightened off by understandably angry (though not justifiably on a one to one basis) female populace. The women's movement was then successfully pushed back by a whole decade during the conservative 80's because of their more inflammatory statements. We don't need that with the secular movement.
Finally, I would like to call out those trolls that hang out on forums and youtube and bully people. I pity you. The internet is a very comfortable place to express such feelings, isn't it. I am a fan of reasonable discourse. I don't enter debates with a need to win, but a desire to ferret out the truth. Therefor, you have my pity and an entrance to my ignore list. I am posting this in anonymity because these folks will surely try to harass me in response. I hope that those of you that are just "joiners" will rethink your attitudes. Your arguments are valid, but your wrath and derision is not. Become a humanist, leave elitism behind.
Thanks for reading.
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Anonymous #2
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #1]
#14947392 - 08/19/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I like your write up. I label myself an atheist and was convinced to do so by the louder atheists who try to get people off the fence. Before that I called myself an agnostic, mainly because I still held the belief that we are all part of a larger consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. I don't totally reject that possibility now, but I also don't accept it at face value.
Anyway, I try to be a humanist, I practice mindfulness meditation, I try to empathize with my fellow monkeys as best I can, but it's hard not to be elitist sometimes. It's like being a 12 year old and knowing that Santa Claus is bullshit, but hearing your siblings/friends express a hardcore belief in him. Then they tell you that he's gonna bury you in coal while you sleep for thinking that he's made up.
It's especially hard when you live in the southern US and have to put up with fundie evangelicals anywhere you go. You mentioned that billboard you liked. The other day I drove by one in OK that said in giant flame letters: "Going to Hell? Ask Jesus into your heart and you can be saved!"
I can get over the ignorance, it's the fear aspect of religious belief that sets me off. Fear of the subconscious, fear of the unknown, fear of God, fear of Satan/Hell/demons, fear of death, fear of what-ifs, fear of education. Not having that fear makes me feel superior, from both an intellectual and evolutionary footing. I honestly believe that I am superior for not having those fears, but that doesn't mean I hate the minds I believe to be inferior, just the institutions instilling the fear.
Edited by Anonymous (08/19/11 12:45 PM)
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Anonymous #1
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #2]
#14947510 - 08/19/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous #2 said:
It's especially hard when you live in the southern US and have to put up with fundie evangelicals anywhere you go. You mentioned that billboard you liked. The other day I drove by one in OK that said in giant flame letters: "Going to Hell? Ask Jesus into your heart and you can be saved!"
You know, I did mean to include something about place in my original piece. I am spoiled by living in a more tolerant (one could say relativistic) community. There are mosques, Buddhist temples, Unitarian churches, theosophist meeting halls, and the headquarters for the American Humanist Society is within walking distance. My goal, outside of this essay, is to spread the open mindedness first. The obvious truth of secularism will follow. Education is the universal panacea.
I understand your frustration. I had some Jehovah Witnesses at my door the other day. I was nice, they were insistent. I try to recognize that they are well meaning, wanting to "save" my soul or whatever, but still there is the thought that converting me would give them extra heaven points or something.
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Anonymous #2 said:
I can get over the ignorance, it's the fear aspect of religious belief that sets me off. Fear of the subconscious, fear of the unknown, fear of God, fear of Satan/Hell/demons, fear of death, fear of what-ifs, fear of education. Not having that fear makes me feel superior, from both an intellectual and evolutionary footing. I honestly believe that I am superior for not having those fears, but that doesn't mean I hate the minds I believe to be inferior, just the institutions instilling the fear.
I'm not going to say you are superior or not. Instead I will agree that you are more evolved. Evolution needs time (some would say we don't have any in the present environment) but the fittest will survive, and I have "faith" that secularism is the best way. I facepalm regularly. I was trained in the bible as a literature. I have a degree in religious studies, which means I view religion not as true or false, but as an element of culture that can and should be studied, and frequently argue about the bibles frequent contradictions, checkered history, non-divine origin, etc. But there are faiths that are aware of these issues, take the bible as a historical document that contains wisdom but isn't infallible, put a primacy on a personal relationship with god, and believe tolerance to be an essential moral tenet. I am not in agreement with them, but if it is a necessary step towards a more secular society, so be it.
I am intolerant of plenty of things myself. We are all human. I just feel that this movement can better focus its energy. Teach science rather than bash belief. In my years, I got my Catholic parents to see the church as destructive by being patient.
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Anonymous #2
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #1]
#14947665 - 08/19/11 01:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here's my worry, and I suspect that it might be the driving concern behind some of more militant atheists as well:
You can look at any given time period in the last few hundred years and see that the smarter folks knew what was going on; Michelangelo painted god inside of an anatomically precise brain, Jefferson, Washington and Thomas Paine were all outspoken against literal Christianity, the Enlightenment period as a whole came and went, Johannes Kepler dedicated his life to finding God's hand in astronomy and had to reconcile that it wasn't there, the rise of the internet happened, causing information to be transmitted at unparalleled speed, but still...
Televangelists flourish, superstition is rampant in the form of astrology, channeling and fortune telling, presidential candidates have to appeal to the tea party fundies for a chance to win, Islam is spreading, Scientology is taken seriously by more than one person, Mormons have figured out the power of advertising campaigns and are using it, and on and on and on.
Maybe secularism isn't the natural course. Maybe the natural course has always been and will continue to be that a small percentage of people see the big picture and the rest of the world is pulled around by the coattails by slick talking preachers, idiots and con-men. Does it not stand to reason that the majority will be followers, desperately looking for someone to show them "the way"? There will always be an L Ron Hubbard, a Catholic church, an Ayatollah, an Eddie Bernays who will gladly take a turn holding the puppet strings.
I'm beginning to think that the only way out is to make a smart drug, b/c education sure isn't working.
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Anonymous #3
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #1]
#14947784 - 08/19/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you support religion in any way, I hate you. Your retarded opinion means shit to anybody who isn't a superstitious spastic.
--PSP regular
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Anonymous #1
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #3]
#14948383 - 08/19/11 04:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous #3 said: If you support religion in any way, I hate you. Your retarded opinion means shit to anybody who isn't a superstitious spastic.
--PSP regular
Thanks!
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Anonymous #1
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #2]
#14948420 - 08/19/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous #2 said: Here's my worry, and I suspect that it might be the driving concern behind some of more militant atheists as well:
You can look at any given time period in the last few hundred years and see that the smarter folks knew what was going on; Michelangelo painted god inside of an anatomically precise brain, Jefferson, Washington and Thomas Paine were all outspoken against literal Christianity, the Enlightenment period as a whole came and went, Johannes Kepler dedicated his life to finding God's hand in astronomy and had to reconcile that it wasn't there, the rise of the internet happened, causing information to be transmitted at unparalleled speed, but still...
Televangelists flourish, superstition is rampant in the form of astrology, channeling and fortune telling, presidential candidates have to appeal to the tea party fundies for a chance to win, Islam is spreading, Scientology is taken seriously by more than one person, Mormons have figured out the power of advertising campaigns and are using it, and on and on and on.
Maybe secularism isn't the natural course. Maybe the natural course has always been and will continue to be that a small percentage of people see the big picture and the rest of the world is pulled around by the coattails by slick talking preachers, idiots and con-men. Does it not stand to reason that the majority will be followers, desperately looking for someone to show them "the way"? There will always be an L Ron Hubbard, a Catholic church, an Ayatollah, an Eddie Bernays who will gladly take a turn holding the puppet strings.
I'm beginning to think that the only way out is to make a smart drug, b/c education sure isn't working.
This is an excellent response. I have thought about what would happen if there was some sort of catastrophe or another great depression. Being militant, or a better term could be "evangelical atheist" is not particularly what I was objecting to. The billboards are nice. The assholes that put pro-theist graffiti on them are just outing themselves as idiots. If Jesus was coming back, then why should they give a shit? They can laugh at you from heaven while you burn in hell, right? (BTW...that was actually something St. Thomas Aquinas believed. That one of the pleasures of heaven was to witness the tortures of hell.)
No, I was referring to people like Anon #3. That, from my perspective, is very common behavior. It helps what? His own fragile ego. I could go on about how he is probably an overweight virgin who gets picked on by jocks. Or even worse, a priests young plaything. But then I would be playing their game.
Thanks for the response, that is definitely something to consider.
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Anonymous #2
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #1]
#14949325 - 08/19/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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When I see/hear that kinda shit that #3 posted, I usually assume that they're frustrated for the same reasons I am, but aren't effective enough communicators to convey what they're feeling or haven't thought it through all the way. I feel like lashing out like that too, but I don't b/c it makes the message look bad, not just myself. After they hash it out IRL a few times they'll realize that and clam it down, but it can only happen one person at a time.
I get the whole, I'm-gonna-be-a-loud-atheist mindset though. Could there be a correlation between the reactionary anti religious voices on the internet and the ones in the metal genre? Or is that pop psychology bullshit?
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Anonymous #3
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #1]
#14950388 - 08/20/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anonymous #1 said: No, I was referring to people like Anon #3. That, from my perspective, is very common behavior. It helps what? His own fragile ego. I could go on about how he is probably an overweight virgin who gets picked on by jocks. Or even worse, a priests young plaything.
Wow, you're a fucking genius.
I'm glad I didn't read your entire OP, it's most likely a bunch of stupid whiny bullshit.
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Anonymous #3
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #2]
#14950396 - 08/20/11 12:13 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anonymous #2 said: When I see/hear that kinda shit that #3 posted, I usually assume that they're frustrated for the same reasons I am, but aren't effective enough communicators to convey what they're feeling or haven't thought it through all the way. I feel like lashing out like that too, but I don't b/c it makes the message look bad, not just myself. After they hash it out IRL a few times they'll realize that and clam it down, but it can only happen one person at a time.
I get the whole, I'm-gonna-be-a-loud-atheist mindset though. Could there be a correlation between the reactionary anti religious voices on the internet and the ones in the metal genre? Or is that pop psychology bullshit?

Dude, if you can't see that religion is a plague upon humanity, then you deserve to be killed along with all religious people. Anybody who doesn't hate religion is a complete retard, end of story.
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Anonymous #1
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #3]
#14951421 - 08/20/11 07:40 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anon #3 has been invaluable to my case. He is not a sock puppet that I produced just to add evidence, in case you were wondering. I rest my case.
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Anonymous #3
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #1]
#14951423 - 08/20/11 07:41 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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No one cares, your case is utterly ridiculous.
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Anonymous #1
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #3]
#14951821 - 08/20/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anonymous #3 said: I'm glad I didn't read your entire OP
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Anonymous #3 said: No one cares, your case is utterly ridiculous.
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Anonymous #3
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Re: New Atheists and the Internet [Re: Anonymous #1]
#14951835 - 08/20/11 10:00 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I didn't need to read your entire argument in order to know what your stupid premise was. I can already tell that your case is retarded by reading its premise.
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