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 Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
 
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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 Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion  [Re: mushiepussy]
#14937255 - 08/17/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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mushiepussy said:
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Poid said:
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HippieChick8 said:
Many people on this forum call each other "frustrated" or "jealous" as well. I've never seen them warned for it.
I don't think Markos' posts in general contain many personal remarks.
He often psychoanalyzes people in this forum, which is not appropriate and in no way adds to any debate...
This is a psychology forum, so psychoanalysis is totally appropriate and a great tool for debate.
The idea of debate is to discuss the issues being presented, not the people presenting them..psychoanalyzing your opponent instead of discussing the issues is highly inappropriate. Besides, it's against the rules:
We're all human and nobody expects a completely sterile discussion, but please try to keep to the topic, and leave the folks you're talking to personally out of the discussion.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mushiepussy
Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14937414 - 08/17/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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mushiepussy said:
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Poid said:
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HippieChick8 said:
Many people on this forum call each other "frustrated" or "jealous" as well. I've never seen them warned for it.
I don't think Markos' posts in general contain many personal remarks.
He often psychoanalyzes people in this forum, which is not appropriate and in no way adds to any debate...
This is a psychology forum, so psychoanalysis is totally appropriate and a great tool for debate.
The idea of debate is to discuss the issues being presented, not the people presenting them..psychoanalyzing your opponent instead of discussing the issues is highly inappropriate. Besides, it's against the rules:
We're all human and nobody expects a completely sterile discussion, but please try to keep to the topic, and leave the folks you're talking to personally out of the discussion.
Yes, but is it not important to understand other perspectives on the ideas being discussed? The shroomery is filled with incredibly diverse minds, IMO the only way to get anywhere with debate here is to try to understand where these guys are coming from, not force a single point of view down their throat, which usually pushes them to the point where they take it personally.
Anyways, who said psychoanalysis has to be made a personalism? That is a brash assumption on your end.
Edit: I should mention I do feel Markos was out of line, and his use of psychoanalysis was not only faulty, but rude.
Edited by mushiepussy (08/17/11 02:13 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14937458 - 08/17/11 01:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Me and Diploid both agree
"Diploid and I both agree..." 
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#14937509 - 08/17/11 02:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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mushiepussy said:
Yes, but is it not important to understand other perspectives on the ideas being discussed?
I don't see why making personal remarks about people would be necessary for that. 
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mushiepussy said:
The shroomery is filled with some incredibly diverse minds, IMO the only way to get anywhere with debate here is to try to understand where these guys are coming from...
Well I disagree..what's important are the claims people put forth, not their personal reasons for doing so. The point is to discover the truth values of the various proposed claims via discussion (the purpose of philosophy is to discover the truth)..being aware of the psychological states which influence people to make their claims will not help you discover their truth values. The reasons why people make their claims are entirely irrelevant.
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mushiepussy said:
...not shove a single point of view down their throat, which usually pushes them to the point where they take it personally.
Many posters here seem to understand why discussing the people you're debating with instead of the ideas they're presenting is inappropriate in a debate setting, and I think I've already explained why sufficiently enough..if you still insist on maintaining your opinion on the matter, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. 
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OrgoneConclusion said:
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Me and Diploid both agree
"Diploid and I both agree..."
Well I'm sleep-deprived, give me a break, damnit. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14937533 - 08/17/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I'm sheep-deprived, give me a break, damnit.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#14937555 - 08/17/11 02:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've actually always preferred donkeys.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mushiepussy
Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14937664 - 08/17/11 02:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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mushiepussy said:
Yes, but is it not important to understand other perspectives on the ideas being discussed?
I don't see why making personal remarks about people would be necessary for that.
Neither do I.
Quote:
Well I disagree..what's important are the claims people put forth, not their personal reasons for doing so. The point is to discover the truth values of the various proposed claims via discussion (the purpose of philosophy is to discover the truth)..being aware of the psychological states which influence people to make their claims will not help you discover their truth values. The reasons why people make their claims are entirely irrelevant.
I believe this is where we must agree to disagree. Both the ideas being put forth and the posters reasons for doing so are important, and understanding both will provide more insight than one or the other. This is not to say the posters reasoning will necessarily help support their argument, but understanding their reasoning will certainly benefit the discussion.
Though, I agree, the idea is the more important of the two.
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 Post with an image
Stranger
Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 60
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: mushiepussy] 1
#14937711 - 08/17/11 02:59 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 7 hours
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: johnm214]
#14939987 - 08/17/11 10:41 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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johnm214 said:
I both asked him what the basis for his claims were as well as what their relevance was. As of this time, neither him nor anyone has been able to explain this. Jivjan made a claim similar to yours, that I ignored the relevant portions of his reply, but now he seems to have announced he won't explain himself, so I'd appreciate it if you could explain what you meant.
my mistake. It seems perfectly clear that markos was not responding to what you wrote, but to his perception that you thought the content of the movie was trite.
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Clearly I've explained exactly what I found insulting. Other than your conclusory statements, you've offered nothing to rebut this, so I have no idea what the basis for your claims are.
determining whether something is an insult is a subjective judgement. my subjective judgement is that markos was not insulting. I don't see how calling someone paranoid or frustrated automatically qualifies as an insult.
I wouldn't think it would neccesarily qualify as an insult either, but in this case his comments certainly were prohibited. As he refused several request to explain their relevance to anything, let alone the reasoning for the conclusions, it seems pretty clear that there's no good faith there.
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Further, even if it was an intentional insult, it was not the bulk of what markos was saying and it was such a minor insult that I cannot imagine why anyone would waste the time and energy dwelling on it.
What was the bulk of what he was saying, then? Each reply contained claims that I was mentally ill, unable to understand the matrix, that he was not surprised I am unable to understand the philosophical themes, and so forth.
What is there left? I've yet to see a relevant reply in any of his posts.
it seems to me the bulk of the posts were an attempt to defend the philosophical value of the matrix (not that this has anything to do with the OP), and the 'psychological analysis' had to do with his presumption that you did not understand the psychological value of the matrix.
to get back to the OP
Pop culture sucks and most people are stupid, case closed!
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,043
Last seen: 3 hours, 11 minutes
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: johnm214]
#14940135 - 08/17/11 11:20 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
John214 said:
the Matrix's world doesn't even really make sense to begin with
In the beginning there was no sense of real?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: falcon]
#14940586 - 08/18/11 01:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
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johnm214 said:
I both asked him what the basis for his claims were as well as what their relevance was. As of this time, neither him nor anyone has been able to explain this. Jivjan made a claim similar to yours, that I ignored the relevant portions of his reply, but now he seems to have announced he won't explain himself, so I'd appreciate it if you could explain what you meant.
my mistake. It seems perfectly clear that markos was not responding to what you wrote, but to his perception that you thought the content of the movie was trite.
Thanks, man. That's all I can see as well. Even after I specifically said I didn't think this he kept on with that, but my post wasn't about the movie at all rather the way some silly arguments seem to incorporate it (and how those referencing the matrix seem to be disproportionately silly).
His insults were pissing me off because they were premised on the straw man that I thought the Matrix was crap or philosophically bankrupt or something, which had nothing to do with my post.(still, even if I had said that I'm not sure that's grounds for a formal diagnosis, lol)
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falcon said:
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John214 said:
the Matrix's world doesn't even really make sense to begin with
In the beginning there was no sense of real?
Not sure what your referring to here, but my comment about the world not making sense was in regards to how Neo is not bound to any rules per se by the Matrix even while interacting with it. As the world is the construct of the Matrix, as is his presence in it, it seems difficult to imagine how the rules of the Matrix could not bind him. If they wouldn't, I would imagine the agents would also not be bound by them, despite the distinction between neo and the agents being the whole premise of 'The One" (unless the agents voluntarily restricted their potential to conform to people's expectations, but that is obviously not true as several examples in the movie demonstrate). Its a cool movie, but its not like every miscellaneous plot device is fully consistent, now would this necessarily be desirable.
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,043
Last seen: 3 hours, 11 minutes
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: johnm214]
#14943725 - 08/18/11 05:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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johnm214 said:
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falcon said:
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John214 said:
the Matrix's world doesn't even really make sense to begin with
In the beginning there was no sense of real?
Not sure what your referring to here, but my comment about the world not making sense was in regards to how Neo is not bound to any rules per se by the Matrix even while interacting with it. As the world is the construct of the Matrix, as is his presence in it, it seems difficult to imagine how the rules of the Matrix could not bind him. If they wouldn't, I would imagine the agents would also not be bound by them, despite the distinction between neo and the agents being the whole premise of 'The One" (unless the agents voluntarily restricted their potential to conform to people's expectations, but that is obviously not true as several examples in the movie demonstrate). Its a cool movie, but its not like every miscellaneous plot device is fully consistent, now would this necessarily be desirable.
Ha, yep that's what I was asking, what didn't make sense. The Matrix is a construct, but I think events in the trilogy, point to Neo being a construct, that he or it was inserted into the body of Mr. Anderson. And about the agents conforming, until Agent Smith interacted with Neo, Agent Smith was constrained by his nature.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Freedom]
#14952969 - 08/20/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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so you are in favor of zero tolerance? why?
What zero tolerance? Markos has a long rap sheet here with multiple running warnings and prior bans from four different mods.
He did it again, and I banned him (again). And yes, if he keeps it up, he will eventually be permabanned from PS&P. How this plays out is 100% up to him.
That is a wide-tolerance policy. Get it right.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 7 hours
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Diploid]
#14953762 - 08/20/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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as i said i should have called it low tolerence
permanantly banning someone for petty insults is heavy handed in my opinion.
as a moderator, shouldn't you consider the opinions of those you are moderating?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Freedom] 2
#14954018 - 08/20/11 07:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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permanantly banning someone for petty insults is heavy handed in my opinion
I agree in so far as the disruptions are not constantly repeated. That's why people get numerous warnings, followed by numerous bans, and finally as a last resort, they get permabanned. Markos is not permabanned, he'll be back in a few days.
as a moderator, shouldn't you consider the opinions of those you are moderating?
I do, and that's why the rules as codified and changed from time to time reflect the input of the community.
However, this is a private web site. You and everyone else is here by invitation pursuant you follow the rules. If you repeatedly break the rules despite numerous warnings and bans, the invitation will be rescinded.
If you don't like that, try the unmoderated OTD forum. I have a feeling you'll be back quickly.
Now let's get back on topic. This thread has been derailed enough.
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MotherNaturesSon
Neuromancer ☿
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#15209822 - 10/11/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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 SPOILER ALERT. DONT READ BELOW IF YOU HAVENT SEEN THE MOVIE
I found the philosophical content of the characters dialogues and the events occurring in the story as it unfolds simply put brilliant. above any other i've seen.
The movie isn't referring to an actual conspiracy concerning reality, it is simply questioning the reasoning behind what we believe to be real and what is an illusion. In the matrix this is beautifully demonstrated in the parts were smith can cross and rewrite its program into the program of a human mind or when neo can seemingly extend his abilities from the matrix into the actual world. This expresses the irony that neither the matrix nor 'reality' were actually more 'real' than the other, it was the minds observing and maneuvering through them that was the only real thing.
I love how the matrix also touch the question of choice. The architect bit were he explained that 99% of the subjects were willing to accept the 'program' is they had a choice in the unconscious level simply blew my mind. What a brilliant way to connect things! The only thing that'll make the system work is the presence of a possibility to anomaly, of it NOT working! And the 1% that doesn't accept the program (aka "the one") is the result.
Furthering this, reality seems to facilitate a course of its own, both in the matrix and 'reality'. The program mr.smith came in contact with the one (neo) and thus the core-program attempted to balance the equation out resulting in the reborn and changed mr.smith, who now knew the meaning of choice and was the opposite of neo, but not the opposite as in 'evil' simply put the opposite in a general manner of existing entities, on an existential level. It was mr.smiths own pre-defined nature that led him to make the choices he did- that was to hunt neo and spread in roder to serve a purpose, because in the machine world only things with purpose were being kept alive, so smith, though disconnected from his previous purpose as an agent, was in need of a purpose ("I am here mr. anderson to take from you what you tried to take from me- purpose!). Driven by vengeance and having the choice to try and take it, he developed in terms of his own machine 'mind', ultimately coming to the conclusion he stated in the end-- "the purpose of life is for it to end". He was desperate for resolution. This is expressed by his final words when he had seemingly ended all life in the matrix "is it over...?". But what he didn't realize ("i still dont fully understand it") was the connection he an neo shared as a result of the equation balancing itself out. neo realized it in time and allowed himself to be absorbed by smith. their two codes merged and since smith, though free of control, was still part of the source of the machines- they had both achieved that which 'the one' was meant to do in the first place, explained in the scene with the architect- to return to the source and stabilize the program.
the only difference between neo and his five predecessors was that in fact that he had an opposite (smith) and that he chose NOT to stabilize the program under the machine's terms. rather than that, in the end, he offered the machines to deal with his 'opposite' (smith had kind of become the machine's "the one") in turn for peace, ultimately leading him do what the purpose of the one was in the very first place ("you were right smith. its inevitable")- to return to the source. BUT! it was on HIS terms. Smith, having the code of the oracle came to realize his purpose in end with neo and panicked. it all truly WAS inevitable. But inevitable for the both of them. Neo also received the 'eyes of the oracle' when smith absorbed her due to their connection, this is probably why he could see the code of actual 'reality' even when he went blind.
Also, the idea of love was also very beautifully expressed in the scene were neo speaks to the indian-program. love is connection. be it a connection to someone or even realities.
I mean the whole movie is simply one big existential mind blower. screw the conspiratorial minds digging for a connection between actual reality and the reality of the movie- the whole point of the movie was a thousand times deeper than mere questioning of reality. it was about destiny and its sublime forms, about choice, about love and of course- about perception/reality.
The single, most awesome modern trilogy ever made imo.
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    Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:
"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine." "The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."
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