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Invisiblelongbong
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cold shock overnight to start pinning?
    #14896720 - 08/09/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Is it worth cold shocking in a fridge overnight to start pinning or can you just leave the jars in indirect light before birthing them when the pins start?
fully colonized jars

Edited by longbong (08/09/11 02:54 PM)

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14896748 - 08/09/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

ps. cubensis do not benefit from a cold shock.

shiitake mushrooms do benefit from a cold shock.

it would help if you specified what kind of mushroom you are trying to grow.


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14896754 - 08/09/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If you are growing cubes and I'm assuming you are then you do not need a cold shock. It's outdated information from years ago. Search dunk and roll.


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Edited by arp180 (08/09/11 02:57 PM)

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InvisibleDoctor_Inoc
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14896795 - 08/09/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Pretty sure that cold shocking cubesis substrates to initiate pinning has been found to have NO affect initiating pins, therefore, is out-dated information. 

Keeping cakes in indirect light for colonization and waiting to birth until pins start is the way it should be done.

The number one pinning trigger is the introduction of fresh air, followed by RH (micro-climate of humidity), temperature, and lighting.  The introduction of fresh air drops co2 levels, as well as begins to encourage moisture to evaporate from the cakes.

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Invisiblearp180
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: Doctor_Inoc]
    #14896946 - 08/09/11 03:35 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Doctor_Inoc said:
Pretty sure that cold shocking cubesis substrates to initiate pinning has been found to have NO affect initiating pins, therefore, is out-dated information. 

Keeping cakes in indirect light for colonization and waiting to birth until pins start is the way it should be done.

The number one pinning trigger is the introduction of fresh air, followed by RH (micro-climate of humidity), temperature, and lighting.  The introduction of fresh air drops co2 levels, as well as begins to encourage moisture to evaporate from the cakes.[/quote

#1 pinning trigger is 100% colonization of substrate


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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Invisiblelongbong
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: arp180]
    #14897052 - 08/09/11 04:00 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Doctor_Inoc said:
Pretty sure that cold shocking cubesis substrates to initiate pinning has been found to have NO affect initiating pins, therefore, is out-dated information. 

Keeping cakes in indirect light for colonization and waiting to birth until pins start is the way it should be done.

The number one pinning trigger is the introduction of fresh air, followed by RH (micro-climate of humidity), temperature, and lighting.  The introduction of fresh air drops co2 levels, as well as begins to encourage moisture to evaporate from the cakes.





So, if they are colonizing in a box in the dark and you take them out when fully colonized and leave them in indirect light, does that also give fresh air until pinning starts?

Quote:

arp180 said:
If you are growing cubes and I'm assuming you are then you do not need a cold shock. It's outdated information from years ago. Search dunk and roll.




With dunk and roll, is there any need to mist the terrarium?
Can't you just have a layer of soaked perlite in the bottom of a box that keeps it humid?

Can you dunk and roll if pinning has already started?

Edited by longbong (08/09/11 04:08 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14897289 - 08/09/11 05:03 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Here ya go. Watch all four brf tek videos and your questions will be answered.  You shouldn't ever colonize in a box or in the dark.  Cold shocking is not for cubes. You need to mist daily after placing the substrates into fruiting conditions.
RR


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InvisibleDoctor_Inoc
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14897300 - 08/09/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

#1 pinning trigger is 100% colonization of substrate



NO!  :facepalm:

Number 1, we're talking about BRF cakes, therefore no, 100% colonization ISN'T the number one pinning trigger, 100% colonization isn't in fact a pinning trigger AT ALL, and never is with any substrate!  BRF cakes DEMAND AT LEAST, one full week to grow inside of the jars, AFTER full colonization is reached.  This is known as the consolidation period. 

I don't think you'v ever fruited cakes as cakes, let alone, fruit cakes without a consolidation period.  If you have, you'd know, BIRTHING CAKES AS CAKES WITHOUT A CONSOLIDATION PERIOD CAUSE MYCE. BLOBBING AND PROLONGS FRUITING. 

I'v birthed cakes that were not allowed a consolidation period, form blobs, and never recover.  Even though, optimal fruiting conditions were maintained. 

I have only HEARD and READ of cakes that weren't allowed a consolidation period, form blobs, and still fruit, ONE MONTH AFTER BEING BIRTHED. 

It's NOT good for cubensis substrates to be in an open environment, collecting all those invader spores, without fruiting.  That increases the chances of the cakes becoming contaminated before they can even have a chance to flush for the first time.  Any BRF cake I'v grown (from MS or clone) is spent after one month and has flushed several times.

If you don't know what you'r talking about, best just not to post.  Posting such misinformation causes confusion to our new members who actually USE the search function.

Quote:

So, if they are colonizing in a box in the dark and you take them out when fully colonized and leave them in indirect light, does that also give fresh air until pinning starts?




What??  No.  Take the jars out from inside a closed, dark box.  I and countless others have found, indirect, ambient light to be very beneficial to colonizing mushroom mycelium. 

When the cakes are inside of properly constructed jars, they will NEVER receive the amount of fresh air required to initiate pinning, only gas exchange.  We take the cakes out of the jars (once cakes are fully consolidated) and place them into a properly constructed fruiting chamber to supply them with the proper amounts of fresh air required to initiate pinning.

Pinning happens inside of jars when the mycelium has taken a FULL foot-holding onto the substrate and is indicating it's ready to be birthed.  Pinning in jars can also be caused by contamination.  Mycelium is a living organism that KNOWS when it's time for it to propagate itself.
 

Quote:

With dunk and roll, is there any need to mist the terrarium?
Can't you just have a layer of soaked perlite in the bottom of a box that keeps it humid?
Can you dunk and roll if pinning has already started?



YES!

NO!  A large, clear, 104 quart, plastic tote with lid, with quarter inch holes drilled into ALL SIX SIDES of the tote, and a five inch bed of moistened perlite is how to construct a properly functioning Shotgun FRUITING CHAMBER.

The introduction of fresh air is what causes ANY moisture to evaporate from ANYTHING, period.  The perlite AND the cakes WILL dry out if the moisture that evaporated from them isn't replaced.  Perlite allows for rapid EVAPORATION of water, due to it's surface area, and is why perlite is used to maintain proper levels humidity inside of the shotgun fruiting chamber in the first place.

Yes!

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Invisiblelongbong
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: Doctor_Inoc]
    #14900848 - 08/10/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Doctor_Inoc said:

When the cakes are inside of properly constructed jars, they will NEVER receive the amount of fresh air required to initiate pinning, only gas exchange.  We take the cakes out of the jars (once cakes are fully consolidated) and place them into a properly constructed fruiting chamber to supply them with the proper amounts of fresh air required to initiate pinning.

Pinning happens inside of jars when the mycelium has taken a FULL foot-holding onto the substrate and is indicating it's ready to be birthed.  Pinning in jars can also be caused by contamination.  Mycelium is a living organism that KNOWS when it's time for it to propagate itself.  





Confused me there. You said they should be taken out after consolidation but not pinning and then said pinning should happen inside jars.
SO, once they have reach 100% of the visible jar, you leave them for an extra week and then birth regardless of if they are pinning or not?

Quote:



NO!  A large, clear, 104 quart, plastic tote with lid, with quarter inch holes drilled into ALL SIX SIDES of the tote, and a five inch bed of moistened perlite is how to construct a properly functioning Shotgun FRUITING CHAMBER.

The introduction of fresh air is what causes ANY moisture to evaporate from ANYTHING, period.  The perlite AND the cakes WILL dry out if the moisture that evaporated from them isn't replaced.  Perlite allows for rapid EVAPORATION of water, due to it's surface area, and is why perlite is used to maintain proper levels humidity inside of the shotgun fruiting chamber in the first place.






Don't the holes allow the humidity build up to escape therefore reducing the humidity level?
When this was done before, the mist would build up the humidity but one tek says you can just have perlite on the bottom and no misting.

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InvisibleDoctor_Inoc
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14905169 - 08/11/11 07:35 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Confused me there. You said they should be taken out after consolidation but not pinning and then said pinning should happen inside jars. 
SO, once they have reach 100% of the visible jar, you leave them for an extra week and then birth regardless of if they are pinning or not?



I can see that.  Lemme see if I can be a little more clear for you. 

No, what I'm saying is that the pinning of cakes inside of jars is an INDICATOR of full consolidation and cakes are safe to be assumed fully consolidated, removed from jars, birthed, then fruited.  Cakes that fruit inside of jars that AREN'T fully colonized are probably contaminated. 

Birth them cakes at which ever point comes first, a full 1-2 weeks of a consolidation period, or, pinning inside of the jar.  Choice is yours.

Quote:

Don't the holes allow the humidity build up to escape therefore reducing the humidity level?
When this was done before, the mist would build up the humidity but one tek says you can just have perlite on the bottom and no misting.



The holes of a shotgun fruiting chamber should be a quarter of an inch thick, placed every 2 inches, on all SIX sides of the fruiting chamber with a 4-5 inch bed of moistened perlite at the bottom. 

Air coming into contact with moisture evaporates said moisture creating humidity.  A shotgun fruiting chamber, designed per RR's tek, provides a perfect balance of fresh air introduction while maintaining the proper relative humidity levels for fruiting mushrooms.

I don't know what tek you'r reading that prescribes you not to mist.  Just do like RR says above, as well countless other experienced, shroomerite cake growers (myself included) and mist them cakes once a day to replace evaporated moisture from the cakes and perlite so the cakes and fruiting chamber can maintain that high humidity.

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Invisiblelongbong
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: Doctor_Inoc]
    #14905874 - 08/11/11 11:18 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Do you stop misting once the mushrooms start growing?
The old tek used to use a plastic sheet that you would mist once a day and wave in some fresh air.
This new tek seem to mist the cakes directly, which was always assumed to be bad.

Also, why does the bottom need holes,doesn't the water just fall out?

Edited by longbong (08/11/11 11:19 AM)

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14905885 - 08/11/11 11:22 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

the water is held in the perlite, with a solid 4 inches or more it will not drip out.

and we mist cakes and mushrooms directly.

RR sprays his with a garden hose (shiitake)


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InvisibleDoctor_Inoc
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: k00laid]
    #14910110 - 08/12/11 06:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Do you stop misting once the mushrooms start growing?



With cubensis, I don't.  Once fruit bodies form, all the way through maturity, I mist them and cakes, directly, with just enough water so that given all my environmental conditions, the mushroom bodies become dry within 15 minutes of being misted.

Quote:

The old tek used to use a plastic sheet that you would mist once a day and wave in some fresh air.
This new tek seem to mist the cakes directly, which was always assumed to be bad.



Key word:  Was. 

Using the lid of the fruiting chamber to wave in air after misting is fine.  You have such an old account and seem to only know of OLD methods.  I think there have been MANY industry standards that have changed since you last pursued this hobby.  Have a look at the links provided by RR!   

Quote:

Also, why does the bottom need holes,doesn't the water just fall out?



The perlite'll absorb any water introduced by misting and be BETTER encouraged to evaporate from all it's surfaces by air entering through ALL six sides of the fruiting chamber.

Can't say this for a fact because I'v always designed my SGFC's per RR's tek but, my better judgement dictates, without holes on the bottom, an anaerobic environment would easily be created.  Water would POOL, air would become stagnant, and a huge vector for contamination would be opened up.

Water won't "just fall out" when you moisten/soak the bed of perlite FIRST, before cakes are placed into the fruiting chamber.  Either by, loading the perlite into the fruiting chamber dry, then soaking it in the bath tub with a shower head or, by running water over it in col lenders in the sink, allow the excess water to drain away.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: longbong]
    #14910189 - 08/12/11 07:16 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

longbong said:
Do you stop misting once the mushrooms start growing?
The old tek used to use a plastic sheet that you would mist once a day and wave in some fresh air.
This new tek seem to mist the cakes directly, which was always assumed to be bad.

Also, why does the bottom need holes,doesn't the water just fall out?




It sounds like you haven't been growing in a decade or so.  A lot has changed.  The original pf tek was lucky to produce 3 grams per cake.  Today, we use the same recipe, but get up to 10 dry grams per cake.  The difference is ten years of study on pinning triggers, proper fresh air exchange, terrarium design, lighting, and substrate moisture maintenance.

Follow the advice you're getting now and forget the ten year old stuff.
RR


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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #14910269 - 08/12/11 08:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

:whathesaid:
Alot had changed since i had last been here back when i registered, so imagine 10+ years.


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Invisiblearp180
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Re: cold shock overnight to start pinning? [Re: Doctor_Inoc]
    #14924748 - 08/15/11 07:55 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)


    Quote:
    #1 pinning trigger is 100% colonization of substrate


Quote:

NO!  :facepalm:

Number 1, we're talking about BRF cakes, therefore no, 100% colonization ISN'T the number one pinning trigger, 100% colonization isn't in fact a pinning trigger AT ALL, and never is with any substrate!  BRF cakes DEMAND AT LEAST, one full week to grow inside of the jars, AFTER full colonization is reached.  This is known as the consolidation period. 




Yes, 100% colonization is a pinning trigger.  Have you grown before?


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


Edited by arp180 (08/15/11 07:58 AM)

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