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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really?
#14918605 - 08/14/11 12:47 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Piracy is in the news pretty much constantly, with either media groups having a fit or the government proposing/debating some bill, but one thing I've noticed is that many of the figures I hear regarding the "piracy problem" seem pretty poor as indicators.
While everyone agrees, and it is trivial to show, that plenty of people violate copyright/trademark law, how bad is piracy really for the company's legitimate economic interests?
Specifically, a common figure to hear is the number of duplicated works distributed via various networks, but obviously this does not indicate how much buisness was lost by the rights owner- clearly the frequently used figures multiplying sales/license prices/profit times illegal distributions does not provide any indication of the loss to the buisness due to piracy.
Similarly, I hear often how producers of video games are shying away from the PC due to the claimed increase in piracy rates vs consoles, but again: rates of piracy don't establish actual losses due to piracy. How much money are the rights holders loosing actually? Obviously it is not an economical decision to simply avoid creating a product due to any rate of piracy absent actual harm, but usually the figures and arguments you hear, even from the producers themselves, refer to the former rather than the later- as if the meer fact that someone is not paying them for accessing their product has any harm to their buisness.
Does anyone have any insight into this issue?
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iamnotadream
Enis the Penis


Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 2,599
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14918633 - 08/14/11 12:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I took 6 Xannies and a half a gram of Texas llello and it dint so shit
It was good shit, I could tell. I just dint get where I wanted to be becauae faggot tolerance
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lacma50


Registered: 03/13/09
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: iamnotadream]
#14918729 - 08/14/11 01:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
iamnotadream said: I took 6 Xannies and a half a gram of Texas llello and it dint so shit
It was good shit, I could tell. I just dint get where I wanted to be becauae faggot tolerance
Your views on how the entertainment industry is being affected by piracy are so thought-provoking and insightful that it's uncanny.
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"Any rational person changes their mind when confronted with new evidence."
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The Influence
Free Sheeks



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14918768 - 08/14/11 01:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Piracy is in the news pretty much constantly, with either media groups having a fit or the government proposing/debating some bill, but one thing I've noticed is that many of the figures I hear regarding the "piracy problem" seem pretty poor as indicators.
While everyone agrees, and it is trivial to show, that plenty of people violate copyright/trademark law, how bad is piracy really for the company's legitimate economic interests?
Specifically, a common figure to hear is the number of duplicated works distributed via various networks, but obviously this does not indicate how much business was lost by the rights owner- clearly the frequently used figures multiplying sales/license prices/profit times illegal distributions does not provide any indication of the loss to the business due to piracy.
Similarly, I hear often how producers of video games are shying away from the PC due to the claimed increase in piracy rates vs consoles, but again: rates of piracy don't establish actual losses due to piracy. How much money are the rights holders loosing actually? Obviously it is not an economical decision to simply avoid creating a product due to any rate of piracy absent actual harm, but usually the figures and arguments you hear, even from the producers themselves, refer to the former rather than the later- as if the meer fact that someone is not paying them for accessing their product has any harm to their business.
Does anyone have any insight into this issue?
I would think they lose alot of money. There are some variables to consider. Is the movie/game pre-release or older when pirated? Is it being pirated by an individual for personal use or for distribution? Is it a major motion picture or some low budget flick/game? Lets take for instance a street peddler (I've ran into one myself in the parking lot of a mall in Madison, WI)he is selling pre-release pirated movies. Lets say Avatar (a pretty big hit)now he is selling these pre-release copies for $10. So now people know they can get this movie that cheap they are not going to the theater to see it nor buying the DVD, and the actors, producers, and theaters are seeing zero percent of the peddler's revenue. That's a pretty big loss, and that's only one pirate, take into account how many there aren (I dont know how many just trying to give examples), and Im sure there are no real accurate statistics on monetary losses because the pirater only needs to download once and then make as many copies from his own burning device so there is no telling how many copies he made and re-distributed.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14919351 - 08/14/11 05:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Before I get into this, I want to be clear that I see piracy as theft. I am not trying to justify piracy.
> I would think they lose alot of money.
I disagree. They don't lose any money. The vast majority of pirated items would not have been purchased had piracy not been available, thus no money has been lost. If I pirate a $10k software package, the publisher did not lose $10k, because I would have never spent $10k on the software package. The same logic applies to movies, music, books, or anything else that is commonly pirated. If I pirate a new movie, and I like it, I go to the theater to watch it for the big screen experience. If it is a DVD that I like, I purchase the DVD for all of the extras, and because my vanity likes to see another DVD sitting on my shelf. For music, I end up going to the concert to see them live, plus I buy the CD because I want to support the artist.
> Does anyone have any insight into this issue?
I read a book called "Hackers" back in the mid-80's. It was actually a non-fictional history of early computer programmers, mostly at MIT, not a book about breaking into computer systems. One of the stories in the book talked about a computer program on paper tape back in the early days of computing. The company producing it was charging $1000 a copy (which is a lot of money in the 1950's/1960's). The software was buggy, slow, and expensive. The guys at MIT wrote their own version of the software and gave it away for free. Not only was their version free, but it was smaller, faster, and didn't crash. To their amazement, people started to send them money ($20 here, $100 there) for their efforts.
They realized that people will pay what they see as fair market value for software rather than copy it, even when copying it is trivial. Piracy doesn't occur until the item being copied is priced higher than fair market value. The recording industry has been found guilty of price fixing, which causes goods to be priced above their fair market value, thus in my mind, the recording industry is guilty of creating their own problem. I also see the $0.99 iTunes track, and the billions that people are paying to Apple each year, as another example against the recording industry.
People will pay fair market value, based upon supply and demand, rather than copy. If there is a problem with people making copies, then it is probably because somebody is pricing things above fair market value, illegally price fixing, monopolistic (Microsoft), or illegally constraining supply (anti-competitive agreements), etc.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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HeavyToilet
The Heaviest OfThem All


Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 9,458
Loc: British Columbia
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14920868 - 08/14/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: For music, I end up going to the concert to see them live, plus I buy the CD because I want to support the artist.
One other thing which I've done before is donating directly to the artist. Since artists make only a tiny fraction from a sold CD, donating $10 would probably be the equivalent of having half a dozen, or a dozen CDs sold (or perhaps even more).
I just wish more artists had this option on their websites, as it currently seems pretty rare.
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Dawks
Jolly African Potato


Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 4,935
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14921769 - 08/14/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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>So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really?
Not at all. Take a look at this graphic:

As a person who makes a living off the software industry I must say that piracy has the opposite effect that everybody says that it does. One of the earlier applications I tried to market was full of anti-piracy crap: HWID authenticators, runtime encryptions, the works.
After all the "pirate-proofing" what was a left with? a buggy piece of crap compared to the original that didn't even end up selling well.
The next big application I marketed had nothing more than a simple key based authentication and while my heart sank to see it show up on a torrent website something odd happened. More people started buying my program, and more and more. 
People grow to love applications they pirate, eventually some of them start to want support, access to member forums and regular updates to patch buggy code. So they buy, and get a program they can rely on. Everybody is happy.
I can also vouch for this from the consumers point of view. I've "pirated" a few games here and there and played on the "unofficial" servers. Doing so let me grow fond of the game to the point where I wanted to play on more populated servers with less cheaters. So I bought the game. I probably never would have done so otherwise, not even if the game was released as shareware.
It kinda makes my blood boil every time I see these large software firms complaining about "software piracy" hurting their bottom line. Fuck that shit, it's hurting your PROJECTED bottom line, huge fucking difference. Grow the fuck up you greedy asswipes. ( i mad )
In conclusion I think piracy is a good thing as it lets people get what they want when they want it. It has no little to impact on sales whatsoever. (all the above goes for the movie and music industries as well, with some minor differences).
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date ; unzip ; strip ; touch ; grep ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep
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JT


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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Dawks]
#14922073 - 08/14/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think it really depends upon the medium. Programs like photoshop are around $500 for an individual license. At that price, I seriously doubt that many individuals could afford to purchase it. Individuals pirating the software are not cutting much into corporate profit. In fact, if they choose to start a company that does graphic design after learning photoshop on pirated software, they might even be more likely to purchase a corporate license (you can't run a company on pirated software, you're gonna get caught, and you can list it as a business expense and get a tax write off anyways).
The music industry, on the other hand, definitely does suffer. I haven't bought a CD since 2008. If I bought a CD every time I wanted to listen to new music, i'd be hundreds in the hole. I guess pirated music does increase a band's popularity though and increase chances of ticket sales...
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FocusHawaii
Keeper of theMagic Garden

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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14923290 - 08/14/11 10:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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If we assume the current metric used to calculate losses from piracy is, a position that seems quite solid, it begs the question of how can it be improved. Any ideas?
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johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14923487 - 08/14/11 11:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
> I would think they lose alot of money.
I disagree. They don't lose any money. The vast majority of pirated items would not have been purchased had piracy not been available, thus no money has been lost. If I pirate a $10k software package, the publisher did not lose $10k, because I would have never spent $10k on the software package.
At some price point the pirates could have purchased the media and are potential buyers. How do you justify going so far as to say no lose occurs? Is the illegal use class mutually exclusive with the class that purchases such media or do you claim the monetary benefits of illegal use outweigh the losses in sales?
Since we all seem to agree the figures often used that count every instance of duplication as a lost sale are baseless, why are they being thrown around by the industry, media, and legislators? Are some of these people acting in good faith, know something we dont, et cet, or are they all just cynically lieing through statistics? (more to the point, are the people who hear these figures in the legislature, public, industry, really that naive to believe the unjustified statistics?)
Either way, why are the publishers saying they don't want to make games available for PC because of piracy? Clearly it doesn't harm them that people pirate their games per se, but it seems like they have no actual idea what their losses are. It almost seems like they really would rather loose the money gained from making a game available on a platform rather than know people are using their product illegally. The statements I've heard from publishers really seem to lead to this conclusion. What's going on here?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14924475 - 08/15/11 05:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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> At some price point the pirates could have purchased the media and are potential buyers.
Perhaps. I often pirate something I am thinking about, if they don't have a try-before-you-buy program, to see if it is worth the money. If the software is something I am going to use, and it isn't ridiculously expensive, then I buy it. There are some things that I wouldn't install even if they were given to me free (Microsoft Visual C++ as an example).
> Since we all seem to agree the figures often used that count every instance of duplication as a lost sale are baseless, why are they being thrown around by the industry, media, and legislators?
The recording industry has huge pockets and pays the legislators well, thus the legislators will suck recording industry cock rather than represent their constituents. I well remember Orrin Hatch screaming that the recording industry should be able to remotely destroy your computer, without due process, if they suspected you of pirating... until somebody pointed out that his campaign website server was hosting warez... then he quickly shut up.
The recording industry is obviously going to use the worst case for lost profits to show damage. They don't even care about a completely copy... if you take a single byte of pirated data, then you are a lost sale.
> Either way, why are the publishers saying they don't want to make games available for PC because of piracy?
I suspect they have other reasons, but because of marketing or contractual obligations (for example, Sony might give the publisher a discount if they agree not to release to any platform other than Sony PS), they pretend that pirates are responsible. It can also be difficult and costly to release a game on multiple platforms. Often, game consoles have a software development kit (SDK) that has libraries released by the console manufacturer that would have to be implemented on other platforms. Maintaining bug fixes, testing, and tech support across platforms is also an issue. If most PC gamers also have a console device, then releasing a game for only the console device doesn't lose many sales and can have a significant reduction on development and support costs. Plus, you can blame the pirates whenever somebody complains.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14926967 - 08/15/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: if you take a single byte of pirated data, then you are a lost sale.
Yeah, despite the fact that since there are only 256 possible bytes, they must all be a part of some copyrighted work by now.
The idea of a copyright is archaic, is illogical (every copyrighted work can be represented as a number, the unauthorized transmission of which is a violation), damages freedom, stifles innovation, and is a net burden on society (i.e. has the opposite of its supposed intended effect).
Patents too.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14927202 - 08/15/11 05:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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> Patents too.
Don't get me started...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: JT]
#14929085 - 08/15/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
JT said: I think it really depends upon the medium. Programs like photoshop are around $500 for an individual license. At that price, I seriously doubt that many individuals could afford to purchase it. Individuals pirating the software are not cutting much into corporate profit. In fact, if they choose to start a company that does graphic design after learning photoshop on pirated software, they might even be more likely to purchase a corporate license (you can't run a company on pirated software, you're gonna get caught, and you can list it as a business expense and get a tax write off anyways).
The music industry, on the other hand, definitely does suffer. I haven't bought a CD since 2008. If I bought a CD every time I wanted to listen to new music, i'd be hundreds in the hole. I guess pirated music does increase a band's popularity though and increase chances of ticket sales...
no wonder I never use it. Is there a linux photo shop equivelent?
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I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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Humility
Working on it



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: imachavel]
#14942586 - 08/18/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Answer has already been given.
I'd never pay for digital media, ever.
They'll never be able to stop "pirating" ever.
It's done. Let the dinosaurs die and the entrepreneurs put their thinking caps on and make that skrilla. The days of going to a store to pay $10-20 for a CD don't exist anymore period. End of story.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,379
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14946401 - 08/19/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd be curious to see the numbers on this. I've done (some light) professional research on consumer products before. I was abso-fucking-lutely amazed at how detailed the data were. The reason is pretty simple: With a UPC code, you can (literally) keep track of every single item that's ever sold. Ever.
Professional marketing organizations (e.g. market forecasters) can break down product sales by zip code, time of day, store type, etc. You name it, they can do it. They then sell these reports for upwards of 5-30K, and if you have a product, you can review said reports and determine whether to go for it or not.
My point is that these data have to exist.
For those in academia, I urge you to go to: http://academic.marketresearch.com/
Begin typing in keywords like DVD sales, CD sales, "piracy" etc. The numbers and data you can find are absolutely intriguing for some products. There may be reports on "piracy" but I can't access them since I'm no longer an academic.
I would encourage anyone to post the data here, in an effort to develop some objective discussion.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,729
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: badchad]
#14946457 - 08/19/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The interesting thing is not so much how much the software and media industries 'loose' as a result of pirating - the really interesting thing is how media + software development and distribution work in a world where digital access to them is effectively instant and free. The old model was that all investments in development and logistical + organizational overhead would be recouped through sales of licenses or copies. With free and easy access to the same media, that business model is threatened, and that is the core of the current debate. So in my opinion the important issue is not to what extent the currently used business model suffers from the radical changes the world around it has undergone - we can agree that the damage is extensive, and sufficient reason to reconsider the business model. So the heart of the matter is: what will work in today's world?
Seuss' example of the MIT students receiving money for their free-to-use remake of an expensive application could just as well be explained from the guilt the users felt for not having paid anything, in the face of the presence of a hellishly expensive alternative. It remains to be seen if the same dynamic still works if there is no expensive alternative, but only free ones. Are people still spontaneously going to send money to the developers? The annual troubles of the wikipedia foundation come to mind, where they have to actively ask for donations in order to keep the organization running. There's not a lot of spontaneity in there.
So please help me out here - how am I going to make a living as a writer/developer/musician/graphics artist/movie maker in today's digital world? Your thoughts please!
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#14946527 - 08/19/11 09:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The annual troubles of the wikipedia foundation come to mind, where they have to actively ask for donations in order to keep the organization running. There's not a lot of spontaneity in there.
Is wiki really having troubles making ends meet, or do they simply advertise for donations so that people know that wiki survives on donations? (I don't know...)
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,729
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14946585 - 08/19/11 09:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm not sure either, but apart from that, I doubt that many open-source projects/teams receive many spontaneous donations. And if they do, it's probably only the well-known ones; not so much the highly specialist ones with a smaller user base (or perhaps I'm dead wrong, and it is especially the specialist ones that could possibly survive because of their closely-knit ties with their user base?)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#14946795 - 08/19/11 10:47 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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> I'm not sure either, but apart from that, I doubt that many open-source projects/teams receive many spontaneous donations.
I've personally donated to several, and I know the shroomery has donated to a few as well. I'm not sure how much they make, and certainly they don't make as much as they put in, but I know that donations do flow to opensource projects.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,729
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14946851 - 08/19/11 11:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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So I think we can safely establish that the current flow of donations is insufficient to compensate the actual costs incurred in open source software projects. Which means it is not viable as a business enterprise - does this mean that we should take software and media development away from businesses and hand them over to the 'common folk', who can pursue them as a hobby? Or is there a place for business in future media and software creation?
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#14973620 - 08/24/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said: So I think we can safely establish that the current flow of donations is insufficient to compensate the actual costs incurred in open source software projects.
I'm not so sure we can safely establish that when there seem to exist so many companies surviving on sales of open source software and service contracts. I don't know if they're doing well, but they exist.
(RedHat has been around since 1993 and has almost a billion dollars in annual revenue...)
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,729
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14974488 - 08/25/11 12:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The RedHat case is an interesting one, yes, and offering service on top of in-house developed (or borrowed, or bought) software that has been made open-source is just about the only business model I can think of that could work. Still, there's not a lot of companies that have adopted the RedHat business model. How come? What's holding them back? I mean, a decade ago, the RedHat business model was pretty much all over the business news and it was being portrayed as the potential next big thing in the software world - how come we still have only one RedHat?
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#14975567 - 08/25/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said: how come we still have only one RedHat?
Maybe it's not that the RedHat model is unprofitable, maybe it's just that the model which employs state power to enforce a monopoly on your works just turns out to be to some degree more profitable/less risky so most companies choose the latter route.
I'm not sure RedHat is alone though. I don't know the industry too well, but I was under the impression that there were a dozen companies offering various versions of linux alone.
It's certainly not the norm, but when you compare it to the alternative of getting free mafia support to enforce a customer base, it's makes some sense that it's not chosen as often.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,729
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14980517 - 08/26/11 04:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The reason for Microsoft's monopoly (for I assume you're talking about Microsoft) is not the use of 'state power', but network externalities. If your argument is valid though, then the MS business model will cease to be profitable because of piracy. Which evidently hasn't happened yet.
And yes, companies like Suse also offer paid support for their Linux distro's, but why does e.g. the development of OpenOffice still rely on the revenues of non-open source software made by the same company? And where are all the high-quality non-Hollywood movies?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#14980631 - 08/26/11 05:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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> the MS business model will cease to be profitable because of piracy.
I disagree. The Microsoft monopoly is an odd beast because it extends into various related markets. Rather than having a monopoly over just the OS industry, they also have a monopoly over the office productivity industry, a near monopoly over the server industry, and are very competitive in the gaming industry. In order to maintain these markets, Microsoft must have developers writing applications that leverage the various Microsoft products. It also benefits Microsoft to have people familiar and accustom to using the various Microsoft products. For these reasons, non-corporate piracy actual benefits Microsoft. Microsoft would rather an individual, or family, pirate their software than use a competitors products. Corporations and bulk licensing fees, including OEM licenses, are where the bulk of Microsoft's revenue originates. These are the areas that they want to protect from piracy because piracy in these areas will hurt Microsoft's bottom line.
> And where are all the high-quality non-Hollywood movies?
Vancouver, for the most part.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,729
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14980639 - 08/26/11 06:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I share your analysis regarding the success of MS - essentially, you gave a brief description of the dynamics of network externalities, which I mentioned above. Still, there comes a point that the current standard is radically replaced with a new one, which gathers critical mass and pushes the old system out of the market. The odds that MS is the creator of that new standard are very small - at least, that's what history suggests.
Tell me more about Vancouver btw - how does 'open-source' movie making work? What do these people live from?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#14980808 - 08/26/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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> Tell me more about Vancouver btw - how does 'open-source' movie making work?
A lot of movie/television production has moved to Vancouver because of costs, tax breaks, etc. Not sure about 'open source' movie making there. I know there are a few sci-fi type low-budget productions that were released on the web, but I'm not sure if they were cost effective. I can't remember the name, but there is one open source movie project I read about a while back. (Google is your friend... blender foundation) Pretty sure there are a few others like this.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14982514 - 08/26/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks Seuss, that gives me a bit of a picture (no pun intended, haha). I keep wrecking my brain about this, because I believe that art is such a basic means of humans to express themselves that it will always happen, but I also believe that somehow, as a society, we should be able to pay artists (and for me, that includes creative and brilliant software and hardware engineers) for the things they create. The easy answer is 'government funding', but I happen to live in a country that is at this moment succumbing to the heavy financial burden of a welfare state. I guess in the end, I would like to see commercial enterprises to fund art and science from the excess revenue they create by selling products to the population. But for the moment, I guess that as a society, we have decided to value shareholders higher than creative minds.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#14983895 - 08/26/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't disagree with anything you said. Even worse, most nations put more emphasis on sports and entertainment than they do on arts and science. As a people, we really are not any better than those that watched the gladiators fights to the death in ancient times. It is a sad commentary when a football player makes several million dollars a year, but an anti-cancer researcher has trouble paying the bills without grants from the government.
Another thing that really annoys me is the corruption within the recording industry; the producers, studios, and labels, not the artists. Those pricks would sell their mother in to prostitution to make a dollar. They bribe, cheat, steal, and break the law at any opportunity to ensure their profit margins... all the while, the artists and consumers suffer.
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iateshaggy
i haxor 360s



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
#14984203 - 08/26/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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if media companies weren't so greedy, maybe the_scene wouldn't exist. then u have artist like trent reznor leaking releases to torrent sites b4 his label can put them on the shelf. when u really get an insider look into piracy, it becomes obvious that it is just as much of an internal problem as a consumer demand.
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Robo
R Series 66Y
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#14984324 - 08/26/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I used "pirated" stuff for "extended previews". 
If I like it enough, the movie or album or whatever, I'll buy it. It's like the old days, if you borrowed a CD from a friend.
I can't know if somethings worth buying unless I've test driven it for a while.
Especially albums. If I don't get tired of it after a certain number of times, I know it's time to buy a real copy.
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Darwin23
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
#15071972 - 09/13/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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They have to be losing massive amounts. I have many friends who have never bought an album from their favorite band and have never paid for a movie in their life (apart from going to the theatre.) When I say that I actually buy music, my peers look at me weird.
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iateshaggy
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Darwin23]
#15073777 - 09/13/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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i've seen a huge trend of pirates falling into one of 2 categories. to poor to buy media, so the companies lose nothing there, or to smart to buy media, this group may or may not have money, but the companies aren't getting that either.
-------------------- You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true. I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.
I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.
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ChuangTzu
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
#15074624 - 09/13/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said: I keep wrecking my brain about this, because I believe that art is such a basic means of humans to express themselves that it will always happen, but I also believe that somehow, as a society, we should be able to pay artists (and for me, that includes creative and brilliant software and hardware engineers) for the things they create.
I believe that art will always happen, just like the pharmaceutical industry thrived in Switzerland even before pharmaceutical patents were introduced there in the mid-1970s.
Your example of Hollywood productions is interesting and I'd have to spend a while thinking of ways in which a multi-million dollar production could still be profitable without relying on copyright schemes, but there are people who are much smarter than me who would immediately step in to figure it out if they had to. Right now, they don't need to do that and thus spend all of their energy optimizing their current business model that incorporates copyright. We all know that monopolies can generate more revenue for the monopoly holder, so why would they opt for an alternative as this point? Rest assured, if this monopoly was no longer available, they would figure out a way to still be profitable. As profitable? Probably not, but that will just make them have to work harder and be more competitive and therefore innovative.
The societal costs of state-enforced monopolies far outweigh any perceived benefits of the granted monopoly powers.
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pickeroo
Mycological Journeyman

Registered: 06/01/11
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#15078870 - 09/14/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm gonna be completely honest. I have pirated almost every game I've played in the last few years, but I would not have bought any of them anyway even if I had not pirated them. A computer game is not worth spending $60 if I don't know for damn sure that I will love it. I don't ever regret or feel bad about doing this.
I pirated the cracked Starcraft II beta, and guess what? I fucking loved it and bought Wings of Liberty at release. Many other games, on the other hand, I pirated, played for a bit, and didn't even bother finishing. I would have been pissed if I had paid $60 for them. No regrets whatsoever. My personal pirating has lead to a net gain for the video game industry, as I have bought multiple games in the last few years that I would not have otherwise.
Another reason I will pirate a game and won't buy it is bullshit policies that are out of my hands. The Monster Hunter series is probably my favorite video game series ever, then Capcom goes and releases MHF3rd only in Japanese with no plans of an English port. If they wanna forsake their American fans, then fuck them. If they won't support me, I'm not going to support them. Instead of importing a Japanese copy of the game and having it shipped costing a total of about $100 [for a PSP game, mind you] then trying to play my way through in Japanese, I pirated the ISO of the Japanese version and applied an English patch, which I have been enjoying for months. I don't feel bad at all.
For the record, in the coming year I plan on buying [as in actually paying for] SCII: Heart of the Swarm, Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, and Battlefield 3.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: pickeroo]
#15079991 - 09/14/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Speaking of computer games... that brings up an interesting point. The recording industry keeps citing their loss in sales, but they continue to ignore the fact that new sources of entertainment, such as video games, the internet, satellite TV (and radio), etc, are all competing for the same budget. Various studies (I'm too lazy to look them up) have shown that people tend to allocate a certain percentage of their income towards entertainment. With more choices available to the consumer, it makes sense each niche is going to see less overall money as the money is spread out across more venues.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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