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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
    #14946851 - 08/19/11 11:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So I think we can safely establish that the current flow of donations is insufficient to compensate the actual costs incurred in open source software projects. Which means it is not viable as a business enterprise - does this mean that we should take software and media development away from businesses and hand them over to the 'common folk', who can pursue them as a hobby? Or is there a place for business in future media and software creation?

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
    #14973620 - 08/24/11 09:58 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
So I think we can safely establish that the current flow of donations is insufficient to compensate the actual costs incurred in open source software projects.




I'm not so sure we can safely establish that when there seem to exist so many companies surviving on sales of open source software and service contracts.  I don't know if they're doing well, but they exist.

(RedHat has been around since 1993 and has almost a billion dollars in annual revenue...)

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14974488 - 08/25/11 12:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The RedHat case is an interesting one, yes, and offering service on top of in-house developed (or borrowed, or bought) software that has been made open-source is just about the only business model I can think of that could work. Still, there's not a lot of companies that have adopted the RedHat business model. How come? What's holding them back? I mean, a decade ago, the RedHat business model was pretty much all over the business news and it was being portrayed as the potential next big thing in the software world - how come we still have only one RedHat?

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
    #14975567 - 08/25/11 09:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
how come we still have only one RedHat?




Maybe it's not that the RedHat model is unprofitable, maybe it's just that the model which employs state power to enforce a monopoly on your works just turns out to be to some degree more profitable/less risky so most companies choose the latter route.

I'm not sure RedHat is alone though.  I don't know the industry too well, but I was under the impression that there were a dozen companies offering various versions of linux alone.

It's certainly not the norm, but when you compare it to the alternative of getting free mafia support to enforce a customer base, it's makes some sense that it's not chosen as often.

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14980517 - 08/26/11 04:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The reason for Microsoft's monopoly (for I assume you're talking about Microsoft) is not the use of 'state power', but network externalities. If your argument is valid though, then the MS business model will cease to be profitable because of piracy. Which evidently hasn't happened yet.

And yes, companies like Suse also offer paid support for their Linux distro's, but why does e.g. the development of OpenOffice still rely on the revenues of non-open source software made by the same company? And where are all the high-quality non-Hollywood movies?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
    #14980631 - 08/26/11 05:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

> the MS business model will cease to be profitable because of piracy.

I disagree.  The Microsoft monopoly is an odd beast because it extends into various related markets.  Rather than having a monopoly over just the OS industry, they also have a monopoly over the office productivity industry, a near monopoly over the server industry, and are very competitive in the gaming industry.  In order to maintain these markets, Microsoft must have developers writing applications that leverage the various Microsoft products.  It also benefits Microsoft to have people familiar and accustom to using the various Microsoft products.  For these reasons, non-corporate piracy actual benefits Microsoft.  Microsoft would rather an individual, or family, pirate their software than use a competitors products.  Corporations and bulk licensing fees, including OEM licenses, are where the bulk of Microsoft's revenue originates.  These are the areas that they want to protect from piracy because piracy in these areas will hurt Microsoft's bottom line. 

> And where are all the high-quality non-Hollywood movies?

Vancouver, for the most part.


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Invisiblekoraks
Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
    #14980639 - 08/26/11 06:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I share your analysis regarding the success of MS - essentially, you gave a brief description of the dynamics of network externalities, which I mentioned above. Still, there comes a point that the current standard is radically replaced with a new one, which gathers critical mass and pushes the old system out of the market. The odds that MS is the creator of that new standard are very small - at least, that's what history suggests.

Tell me more about Vancouver btw - how does 'open-source' movie making work? What do these people live from?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
    #14980808 - 08/26/11 07:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

> Tell me more about Vancouver btw - how does 'open-source' movie making work?

A lot of movie/television production has moved to Vancouver because of costs, tax breaks, etc.  Not sure about 'open source' movie making there.  I know there are a few sci-fi type low-budget productions that were released on the web, but I'm not sure if they were cost effective.  I can't remember the name, but there is one open source movie project I read about a while back.  (Google is your friend... blender foundation)  Pretty sure there are a few others like this.


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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
    #14982514 - 08/26/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks Seuss, that gives me a bit of a picture (no pun intended, haha). I keep wrecking my brain about this, because I believe that art is such a basic means of humans to express themselves that it will always happen, but I also believe that somehow, as a society, we should be able to pay artists (and for me, that includes creative and brilliant software and hardware engineers) for the things they create. The easy answer is 'government funding', but I happen to live in a country that is at this moment succumbing to the heavy financial burden of a welfare state. I guess in the end, I would like to see commercial enterprises to fund art and science from the excess revenue they create by selling products to the population. But for the moment, I guess that as a society, we have decided to value shareholders higher than creative minds.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
    #14983895 - 08/26/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't disagree with anything you said.  Even worse, most nations put more emphasis on sports and entertainment than they do on arts and science.  As a people, we really are not any better than those that watched the gladiators fights to the death in ancient times.  It is a sad commentary when a football player makes several million dollars a year, but an anti-cancer researcher has trouble paying the bills without grants from the government.

Another thing that really annoys me is the corruption within the recording industry; the producers, studios, and labels, not the artists.  Those pricks would sell their mother in to prostitution to make a dollar.  They bribe, cheat, steal, and break the law at any opportunity to ensure their profit margins... all the while, the artists and consumers suffer.


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Offlineiateshaggy
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Seuss]
    #14984203 - 08/26/11 08:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

if media companies weren't so greedy, maybe the_scene wouldn't exist.  then u have artist like trent reznor leaking releases to torrent sites b4 his label can put them on the shelf.  when u really get an insider look into piracy, it becomes obvious that it is just as much of an internal problem as a consumer demand.


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InvisibleRobo
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
    #14984324 - 08/26/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I used "pirated" stuff for "extended previews". :smirk:

If I like it enough, the movie or album or whatever, I'll buy it. It's like the old days, if you borrowed a CD from a friend.

I can't know if somethings worth buying unless I've test driven it for a while.

Especially albums. If I don't get tired of it after a certain number of times, I know it's time to buy a real copy.

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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: johnm214]
    #15071972 - 09/13/11 08:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

They have to be losing massive amounts. I have many friends who have never bought an album from their favorite band and have never paid for a movie in their life (apart from going to the theatre.) When I say that I actually buy music, my peers look at me weird.


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Offlineiateshaggy
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: Darwin23]
    #15073777 - 09/13/11 03:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i've seen a huge trend of pirates falling into one of 2 categories.  to poor to buy media, so the companies lose nothing there, or to smart to buy media, this group may or may not have money, but the companies aren't getting that either.


--------------------
You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: koraks]
    #15074624 - 09/13/11 06:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
I keep wrecking my brain about this, because I believe that art is such a basic means of humans to express themselves that it will always happen, but I also believe that somehow, as a society, we should be able to pay artists (and for me, that includes creative and brilliant software and hardware engineers) for the things they create.




I believe that art will always happen, just like the pharmaceutical industry thrived in Switzerland even before pharmaceutical patents were introduced there in the mid-1970s.

Your example of Hollywood productions is interesting and I'd have to spend a while thinking of ways in which a multi-million dollar production could still be profitable without relying on copyright schemes, but there are people who are much smarter than me who would immediately step in to figure it out if they had to.  Right now, they don't need to do that and thus spend all of their energy optimizing their current business model that incorporates copyright.  We all know that monopolies can generate more revenue for the monopoly holder, so why would they opt for an alternative as this point?  Rest assured, if this monopoly was no longer available, they would figure out a way to still be profitable.  As profitable?  Probably not, but that will just make them have to work harder and be more competitive and therefore innovative.

The societal costs of state-enforced monopolies far outweigh any perceived benefits of the granted monopoly powers.

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Invisiblepickeroo
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #15078870 - 09/14/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm gonna be completely honest. I have pirated almost every game I've played in the last few years, but I would not have bought any of them anyway even if I had not pirated them. A computer game is not worth spending $60 if I don't know for damn sure that I will love it. I don't ever regret or feel bad about doing this.

I pirated the cracked Starcraft II beta, and guess what? I fucking loved it and bought Wings of Liberty at release. Many other games, on the other hand, I pirated, played for a bit, and didn't even bother finishing. I would have been pissed if I had paid $60 for them. No regrets whatsoever. My personal pirating has lead to a net gain for the video game industry, as I have bought multiple games in the last few years that I would not have otherwise.

Another reason I will pirate a game and won't buy it is bullshit policies that are out of my hands. The Monster Hunter series is probably my favorite video game series ever, then Capcom goes and releases MHF3rd only in Japanese with no plans of an English port. If they wanna forsake their American fans, then fuck them. If they won't support me, I'm not going to support them. Instead of importing a Japanese copy of the game and having it shipped costing a total of about $100 [for a PSP game, mind you] then trying to play my way through in Japanese, I pirated the ISO of the Japanese version and applied an English patch, which I have been enjoying for months. I don't feel bad at all.

For the record, in the coming year I plan on buying [as in actually paying for] SCII: Heart of the Swarm, Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, and Battlefield 3.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: So, how much does piracy hurt legitimate movie and application sales, really? [Re: pickeroo]
    #15079991 - 09/14/11 08:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Speaking of computer games... that brings up an interesting point.  The recording industry keeps citing their loss in sales, but they continue to ignore the fact that new sources of entertainment, such as video games, the internet, satellite TV (and radio), etc, are all competing for the same budget.  Various studies (I'm too lazy to look them up) have shown that people tend to allocate a certain percentage of their income towards entertainment.  With more choices available to the consumer, it makes sense each niche is going to see less overall money as the money is spread out across more venues.


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