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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,256
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 9 months, 14 days
Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493477 - 04/25/03 03:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

While I suspect he'd be fun to party with, I think he's not the man for this job. And I voted for him! 


Looks like another case of someone you voted for turned out to be an asshole... :grin:  If you kids want to put it to a vote I would more than happy to step down as mod of the political forum..


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think [Re: Rono]
    #1493487 - 04/25/03 03:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think rono is doing a good job. I have yet to see this mythical abuse of power.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 3,495
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think [Re: slime_R]
    #1493490 - 04/25/03 03:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

slime_R to the rescue! Thanks for the backup.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: Rono]
    #1493760 - 04/25/03 05:33 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

While I suspect he'd be fun to party with, I think he's not the man for this job. And I voted for him! 


Looks like another case of someone you voted for turned out to be an asshole... :grin:  If you kids want to put it to a vote I would more than happy to step down as mod of the political forum.. 



Whoa there happy.... I never said you were or are an asshole. I aslo said you'd probably even be fun to party with.

Also, you flamed yourself. Time for a ban perhaps?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1493837 - 04/25/03 05:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Wow. How interesting. I_F_D I posted facts and figures, all you said was "you are wrong, prove you are right". How about this, if my facts and figures are wrong, prove, using numbers and stastical data or approved accounting practices, how I am. I know that most lefties don't like doing stuff like that, but try, won't you? As for banning me, I don't know why, if I broke a rule, I do apologize :-)


pz

johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1493870 - 04/25/03 06:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Hey Johnny...
How about you stop using that piece of crap quick reply "feature?"


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1494156 - 04/25/03 08:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Iraq has PROVEN oil reserves of 115 billion barrels, with some estimates of potential reserves going up to 300 billion barrels. This is second only to Saudi Arabia.

Even if the direct and/or indirect involvement of the US government in Iraq's oil industry results in savings of as little as $1 per barrel, over the course of time that will result in anywhere from $115 billion to $300 billion in savings for US consumers of that oil. Not all of it will be sold to the US of course, but you can be pretty sure most of it will. Anyway, this is a very conservative estimate of the economic advantage this gives to the US. In reality, the US will probably sell the oil itself for a number of years in order to "pay back *liberation* costs", getting quite a bit of money that way, and then hand it over to an Iraqi puppet government that will basically set pricing according to US wishes at any given time.

Even if you were right that this thing will result in a net economic loss for the US, Bush couldn't care less. The war was paid with taxpayer money and with deficit spending (which you'll pay for eventually with inflation), the profits will go his friends in industry who get the contracts in Iraq. Yet another transfer of wealth from the middle class to the top 5%.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1494466 - 04/25/03 11:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I_F_D I posted facts and figures, all you said was "you are wrong, prove you are right.How about this, if my facts and figures are wrong, prove, using numbers and stastical data or approved accounting practices, how I am.




First of all, the only fact that you posted was the cost of the war, which in and of itself is highly suspect. Do you even have a source for the 1.1 million barrels a day? The rest was a hypothetical corporation in which you assumed the impossible. Your figures were completely worthless as they assume pure profit. However the fact that you even attempted to prove your point through the use of a company goes to show that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

The "You are wrong, prove you are right" was directed at your post claiming that

Quote:

I_FART -  the econ doesn?t work that way exactly.




I never claimed that you facts and figures were wrong in the first place. You can multiply and divide just fine, but your numbers are completely meaningless and worthless. They represent no real information whatsoever. GAAP doesn?t even figure into this, it?s a straight up economics problem. Economics and accounting have little to do with each other. My response was nothing but straight up microeconomic theory, which you essentially called crap. slime_R, another economics major also chimed in, backing up what I said, though I see you failed to respond to him.

You want me to prove you wrong? You really want that? Okey Dokey.

First off, I don?t know where you got 1.1 million barrels of oil per day. That figure is flat out wrong. According to the  Engergy Information Administration Iraq?s sustainable oil output is 
Quote:

at no higher than about 2.8-2.9 million barrels per day, with net export potential of around 2.3-2.5 million barrels per day. 


  Source.
The data suggests that prior to the war Iraq was producing between  1.7 mln bpd, though this dropped during February and March as well.

The US will seek to get Iraqi oil production up to it?s full potential. Ceteris paribus, the increased supply in oil will drop prices in gasoline as seen below in a simplified supply/demand graph.


The supply shifts from S1 to S2, dropping the equilibrium Price from PE1 to PE2, and increasing the equilibrium Quantity from QE1 to QE2. As gas prices are highly inelastic in the short run (i.e., it takes an increase or in this case decrease in gas prices to severely affect the equilibrium quantity), even a fairly large drop in gasoline prices will not increase QE very much. Since the price is fairly inelastic and consumers will not consume much more gasoline they have more money to spend on other products, i.e., increasing their real-income. The real-income effect is a change in purchasing power when other things being constant, the price consumers pay for a product increases or decreases. When the price increases, real-income drops, and when the price falls real-income rises.

Say for instance gas prices are at $1.65 a gallon for regular unleaded. Somebody with what we will arbitrarily call an "average" tank size of 17 gallons* fills up their tank say on average 1.3 times per week when it hits 1/5 of tank (13.6 gallons). Weekly gas expenditure is equal to $29.17 = 1.3(1.65*13.6). This comes out to $126.40 monthly and $1516.84 annually. Now say gas prices drop by 50 cents, and the same consumer with the same vehicle now fills up an average of 1.4 times per week. Weekly gas expenditure is now equal to $21.90. This comes out to $94.88 monthly and 1138.60 annually. Real-income is increased by $31.52 monthly or $378.24 annually. For somebody who drives say an SUV who fills up say 22 gallons 1.3 times a week, their real income increases nearly $744 a year. 

Lets be conservative and say the average increase in real-income is $233 per capita in this case. According to the US census bureau, the current population is 290,814,233. That can be verified  here.  So to calculate the increase real income of the country, multiply 290,814,233 by $233...comes out to $67,759,716,289. Even a price drop of say $.10 (roughly a savings of $90) could increase the real-income over $26 billion. To counteract the $80,000,000,000 in one year, real-income would need to rise just $275.08, which equates to roughly a $0.28 price drop ($0.28 =$275.08/52/1.4/13.6).

Through this illustration it is easy to see that even a small drop in gas prices can trigger a large increase in the real-income of the American consumer. This is essentially "free" money, money which the consumer can spend on other products. Money which can bolster the economy.

I think that about does it. This lesson was free, the next one will cost you.  :wink: 

*This is probably a fairly conservative figure considering the size of SUV gas tanks (the Ford Excursion has a 44 gallon tank.). 

Edit: Fixed a typo.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


Edited by I_Fart_Blue (04/26/03 01:16 AM)


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1494555 - 04/26/03 12:49 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

That was one of the finest posts ever put on this forum. You've raised the bar for all of us. In the future anybody who wants to be taken seriously in an economics debate here will have to display the same level of rigor.

Bravo.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Registered: 04/23/00
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1494632 - 04/26/03 01:26 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

So Johnny, you think that oil production will stay at present levels? That is what your whole argument is based upon. That will simply not happen.


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1495166 - 04/26/03 04:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The $1 hike in gas prices have paid for the war, the future war and all damages caused to the US and by the US alone..

Lets not forget that with the rise in price of gas, workers and unions dont get any more money, their is no raise in overhead just a simple raise in price and inflation of proffits..

These added profits go to the oil and gas companies which controll the world and they in turn give it to the government to wage was against their competitors.

The US consumes an average of 25 million barrels per day. Lets say that every barrel creates 50 gallons of gas, thats 1.25 billion gallons, add to that an average one dollar price increase and youve got 1.25 Billion dollars pumped into the government every day.. Give 4 or 5 months and youve got hundreds of billions of dollars.

Ever notice that gas prices go up in times of great national spending? Do you really think that this is due to the stock market? No, its due to the fact that by adding just 5 cents to gas prices nation wide the added income over a year can pay off severe foreign policy blundering and kill off people who know to much.

This war has already been paid for by you and me every time we fill up our cars. I just hope to see some benefit out of it sometime soon..

Anyone remember what gas prices were a year ago?


--------------------
GabbaDj

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1496353 - 04/26/03 06:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Um...no. You're not even close. I won't even begin to pick through all that garbage.

This war has been paid with deficit spending. Lets just leave it at that, ok?







Jeeze. Where do these folks come up with this stuff?  :confused: 


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


Edited by I_Fart_Blue (04/26/03 06:42 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1496356 - 04/26/03 06:43 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

gas goes in cars, cars drive you to the store to buy more gas, so you can drive to the store to buy more gas. is it just me.....or are we all under MIND CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1497577 - 04/27/03 11:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Johnny please respond to this critique of your argument. (from what I have said above)


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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1499319 - 04/28/03 01:02 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I guess you have realized the flaws in your argument?


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OfflineRadioActiveSlug
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think so.. [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1499502 - 04/28/03 01:53 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The reason why the looters were able to steal valubal paints, artifacts from the oldest know human cizilization, ancient texts, and lab strains of toxic viruses?

its because all the US troops were too busy guarding the oil fields.


--------------------
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." -Buddha
www.impeach-bush-now.org


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OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think [Re: slime_R]
    #1500693 - 04/28/03 03:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

the more oil runs out the more valuble it becomes ...


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think [Re: Kemist]
    #1500709 - 04/28/03 03:08 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yah, supply vs. demand 101. I thought that was fairly obvious?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1501037 - 04/28/03 04:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well I don't think Johnny will be joining us anymore. Quel dommage!


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Op:Iraqi Freedom as a push for oil money? I don't think [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1501097 - 04/28/03 05:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Johnny(lost)respect! :grin:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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