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 OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,407
Loc: Under the C
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 Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion  [Re: Freedom]
#14928573 - 08/15/11 09:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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No one calls me a quack! 
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mushiepussy
Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc: 
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#14928767 - 08/15/11 09:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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if anyone's at fault here.... it's blingbling 
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mushiepussy
Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14929537 - 08/16/11 01:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said:
That's the thing about the personalisms rule...
Is a person something different than the sum of their ideas and actions? I believe this line is drawn rather poorly.
A person's character is the sum of their ideas and actions, however one statement or post cannot contain this information. There is a difference between attacking a claim, and attacking all the claims a person has ever made, for nobody knows this information but the claimer himself(and perhaps God, if you're into that kind of thing).
I mean, everyone slips up now and again. If we were to be denied pointing these mistakes out, nothing would be learned, and this forum would be nearly pointless. Seriously, half of the threads in this place are attacks against a statement or post.. it's what we do best lol.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: mushiepussy]
#14929587 - 08/16/11 01:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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True, I understand the logical merit behind confronting ideas and concepts. It's just that sometimes this technique is twisted so as to allow for underhanded loop-hole personalisms.
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mushiepussy
Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Sleepwalker]
#14929652 - 08/16/11 02:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't believe johnm was intending a personalism, just pointing out the problems with basing a belief directly from a movie. I happen to agree that such reliance's are silly, and cannot be used for evidence of philosophical idea.
He could have mentioned somewhere that the Matrix is a decent movie that has some philosophical merit, in the sense that it opens peoples minds to possibilities, but that was not the point.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Freedom] 1
#14929790 - 08/16/11 03:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
responding to both john and poid,
I do not know the long history. however i consider the personalisms here to be minor, and cannot see how they could be considered so insulting as to derail the topic.
It doesn't matter if they were minor, they were against the rules.
Quote:
Freedom said:
The approriate response to someone who says that your thoughts are the result of frustration and paranoia is to counter their argument with logic.
So what is the correct response to someone who makes several personalisms against you?
Quote:
Freedom said:
the comment containg 'quack' also references the context of Marko's post. the obvious inference is that marko is a quack. for example if i said, "only a @#!$! would have a tiger swiming under water in their avatar", technically you could say it wouldn't be a personalism, but with the context of my avatar its obvious what I'm inferring.
So what? The rules here prohibit direct insults, not snide remarks.
Quote:
Freedom said:
I should have said a long time member who has contributed many posts that many people find valueable. Even the rules recognize the value of long time members, " Long-time forum regulars will generally get a littler more discretion from the moderators than noobs. This is in recognition of their many contributions to the nature and character of this forum..."
He has a long history of insulting people..just because someone is a long time forum member doesn't mean they are allowed to flame with impunity.
Quote:
Freedom said:
I can't remember all of ice's posts and i'm not going to go digging through them, but one example is Ice frequently saying Andrewws has been drinking.
So? How is that a personalism? You frequently make boring posts..my announcing this fact is not a personalism. You don't even seem to understand what a personalism is.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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 Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,299
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14930180 - 08/16/11 07:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
So what is the correct response to someone who makes several personalisms against you?
obviously the correct response is to ignore everything they've said except for the personalisms, and engage in derailing the thread....
no this happens in life and on the internet all the time and if you ignore the personalism and you focous on the topic then you avoid silly thread derailing conflict
Quote:
So what? The rules here prohibit direct insults, not snide remarks.
letter of the law, spirit of the law...
Quote:
He has a long history of insulting people..just because someone is a long time forum member doesn't mean they are allowed to flame with impunity.
I don't see any insulting or flaming. The rules are not enforced with zero tolerance, except for flagrant insults. Is it now going to be zero tolerance for select members such as Markos?
Even if markos is some grumpy guy who can't help insulting people once and a while, why is it that we refuse to tolerate that when his posts are considered valuable by many people (just read his ratings).?
Quote:
Freedom said:
So? How is that a personalism? You frequently make boring posts..my announcing this fact is not a personalism. You don't even seem to understand what a personalism is.
Apparently not. My understanding of the use in this forum is that it is a new. It represents a comment specifically about a person participating in a discussion rather than the topic.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Freedom]
#14930300 - 08/16/11 07:43 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
wow perma ban for such minor personalisms? and in the same post you make your own personalism against him ("quack").
such a hypocritical post highlights the selective enforcement of the rules around here. The only time I have seen consistent enforcement of the rules is when some one is flagrantly being insulting (swearing, cursing out your mother, etc). Just look at how many times Icelander makes personalisms. Its constant and no seems to mind.
threatening to permaban a longtime member because they call someone frustrated and paranoid is a mistake.
While I do slip up and use personalisms occasionally I usually speak to what the person has said rather than something about who they are. I often attack posts but I really try not to attack the person no matter how that may look to you. And I have received warnings and been banned for up to a month here.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: jivJaN]
#14930537 - 08/16/11 08:37 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
Poid said:
So what is the correct response to someone who makes several personalisms against you?
obviously the correct response is to ignore everything they've said except for the personalisms, and engage in derailing the thread....
I've asked several times for him to defend the relevance and justification for the rest of his comments. I still see none.
What exactly is there to discuss about an irrelevant appeal? What exactly was the relevance of "everything they said"?
Quote:
no this happens in life and on the internet all the time and if you ignore the personalism and you focous on the topic then you avoid silly thread derailing conflict
Many other paths would also prevent thread derailing- so what?
Far as I can tell, his comments were irrelevant from the first to the last. He never did answer my repeated requests for some explanation of the relevance.
Quote:
Quote:
So what? The rules here prohibit direct insults, not snide remarks.
letter of the law, spirit of the law...
Where did I do either?
Quote:
I don't see any insulting or flaming. The rules are not enforced with zero tolerance, except for flagrant insults. Is it now going to be zero tolerance for select members such as Markos?
Clearly I've explained exactly what I found insulting. Other than your conclusory statements, you've offered nothing to rebut this, so I have no idea what the basis for your claims are.
Hard to see what this case has to do with zero tolerance. Only after he made three posts insulting me and refused to discuss the issue or to justify the relevance of his insults was he sanctioned. How do you defend your "zero tolerance claim?
Quote:
jivJaN said:
I don't think people should expect to receive zero heat for calling out a large audience of fans or like minded thinkers.
Is this even an issue? Seems like a straw man argument as far as I can tell. Who exactly disputes whether "zero heat" should be expected in any particular situation? Certainly not me.
Quote:
i've seen worse and tbh apart from what VAGUELY resembles a personalism he actually provided a nice reply in regards to the topic.
After this, john doesn't decide to rebut the good points made, rather focuses on the parts of the post that hurt his ego.
So here's one more claim that I've ignored some mysterious "good point" of some relevance, despite the fact that I made several posts asking what his reply had to do with anything and neither him nor anyone else providing any answer. Since you apparently identify some "good point", what is it precisely?
Its frustrating that you and noetworthy would even claim something like this when every one of my posts replying to Markos asked him to explain the relevance of his statements- please which were ignored until finally he stated that he not only wouldn't explain the relevance of his reply but wouldn't be posting at all.
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 1 month
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: johnm214]
#14931605 - 08/16/11 12:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
which were ignored until finally he stated that he not only wouldn't explain the relevance of his reply but wouldn't be posting at all.
I think i'll take the same route and go help autism by donating a dollar at my local convenient store.
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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: jivJaN]
#14931977 - 08/16/11 02:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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What does that mean?
Are you going to explain your conclusions or answer my questions about them? What were the "good points" that were ignored and how were they relevant?
If your not going to back up your claims then simply say so, it is tiring to repeat the same question many times.
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Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,299
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Icelander]
#14933006 - 08/16/11 05:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
While I do slip up and use personalisms occasionally I usually speak to what the person has said rather than something about who they are. I often attack posts but I really try not to attack the person no matter how that may look to you. And I have received warnings and been banned for up to a month here.
I don't think you personally attack people. What I have noticed time and again is you confront people with why they think what they think and they accept it. I'm surprised each time this happens since people are usually defensive in such situations. This is why it sticks in my memory and I used it as an example. I don't remember you ever attacking anybody.
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Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,299
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: johnm214]
#14933142 - 08/16/11 06:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
I've asked several times for him to defend the relevance and justification for the rest of his comments. I still see none.
What exactly is there to discuss about an irrelevant appeal? What exactly was the relevance of "everything they said"?
Quote:
well then maybe there is nothing to discuss.  Another approach would be to ask for more details about why he thinks you are paranoid and frustrated.
Quote:
Many other paths would also prevent thread derailing- so what?
exactly, there are many ways of dealing with people without banning them from the forum. If you think the comments markos made are irrelevant, why did you feel compelled to respond to them?
Quote:
Quote:
So what? The rules here prohibit direct insults, not snide remarks.
letter of the law, spirit of the law...
Where did I do either?
I did not say you did either. Poid and I were discussing diploid calling markos a quack.
Quote:
I don't see any insulting or flaming. The rules are not enforced with zero tolerance, except for flagrant insults. Is it now going to be zero tolerance for select members such as Markos?
Quote:
Clearly I've explained exactly what I found insulting. Other than your conclusory statements, you've offered nothing to rebut this, so I have no idea what the basis for your claims are.
determining whether something is an insult is a subjective judgement. my subjective judgement is that markos was not insulting. I don't see how calling someone paranoid or frustrated automatically qualifies as an insult.
Quote:
Hard to see what this case has to do with zero tolerance. Only after he made three posts insulting me and refused to discuss the issue or to justify the relevance of his insults was he sanctioned. How do you defend your "zero tolerance claim?
well i should not say zero tolerance but low tolerance. the reason I claim it is low tolerance is because we cannot conclude from what he said that his words were meant as an insult or even inccorrect. perhaps the reasons you think what you wrote in the OP are because you are paranoid and frustrated. It is possible and if true the insult only arises because you feel offended. Further, even if it was an intentional insult, it was not the bulk of what markos was saying and it was such a minor insult that I cannot imagine why anyone would waste the time and energy dwelling on it.
I think a really good question is why we need authority figures to resolve personal disputes with heavy handed sanctions.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Freedom]
#14933201 - 08/16/11 06:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Poid and I were discussing diploid calling markos a quack.
He never directly called him a quack.
determining whether something is an insult is a subjective judgement. my subjective judgement is that markos was not insulting. I don't see how calling someone paranoid or frustrated automatically qualifies as an insult.
The fact is, saying someone is behaving in a paranoid fashion is a personalism, and contributes nothing to the debate..since Markos has a long history of name-calling/making personal remarks about posters as opposed to discussing the topic, it makes sense to assume that he intended his comment to be insulting.
Further, even if it was an intentional insult, it was not the bulk of what markos was saying and it was such a minor insult that I cannot imagine why anyone would waste the time and energy dwelling on it.
It doesn't matter if it was not the bulk of what Markos was saying, it was against the rules and he has a long history of breaking them.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,299
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14933317 - 08/16/11 06:47 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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so you are in favor of zero tolerance? why?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Freedom]
#14933339 - 08/16/11 06:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
johnm214 said:
I've asked several times for him to defend the relevance and justification for the rest of his comments. I still see none.
What exactly is there to discuss about an irrelevant appeal? What exactly was the relevance of "everything they said"?
well then maybe there is nothing to discuss. Another approach would be to ask for more details about why he thinks you are paranoid and frustrated.
I both asked him what the basis for his claims were as well as what their relevance was. As of this time, neither him nor anyone has been able to explain this. Jivjan made a claim similar to yours, that I ignored the relevant portions of his reply, but now he seems to have announced he won't explain himself, so I'd appreciate it if you could explain what you meant.
Quote:
Quote:
Many other paths would also prevent thread derailing- so what?
exactly, there are many ways of dealing with people without banning them from the forum. If you think the comments markos made are irrelevant, why did you feel compelled to respond to them?
Because it is presumptuous to dismiss an argument you don't understand, as without understanding what the argument is you cannot conclude it was irrelevant. Instead I explained that his statements seemed red herrings/irrelevant appeals to me and that they were hurtful comments. Presumably the person then either retracts them or justifies them. Markos simply continued with the insults and started talking about the Matrix for some reason I still don't understand (he wouldn't explain that either).
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So what? The rules here prohibit direct insults, not snide remarks.
letter of the law, spirit of the law...
Where did I do either?
I did not say you did either. Poid and I were discussing diploid calling markos a quack.
I apologize. I misunderstood.
Quote:
Quote:
Clearly I've explained exactly what I found insulting. Other than your conclusory statements, you've offered nothing to rebut this, so I have no idea what the basis for your claims are.
determining whether something is an insult is a subjective judgement. my subjective judgement is that markos was not insulting. I don't see how calling someone paranoid or frustrated automatically qualifies as an insult.
I wouldn't think it would neccesarily qualify as an insult either, but in this case his comments certainly were prohibited. As he refused several request to explain their relevance to anything, let alone the reasoning for the conclusions, it seems pretty clear that there's no good faith there.
Quote:
Further, even if it was an intentional insult, it was not the bulk of what markos was saying and it was such a minor insult that I cannot imagine why anyone would waste the time and energy dwelling on it.
What was the bulk of what he was saying, then? Each reply contained claims that I was mentally ill, unable to understand the matrix, that he was not surprised I am unable to understand the philosophical themes, and so forth.
What is there left? I've yet to see a relevant reply in any of his posts.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Freedom]
#14933365 - 08/16/11 06:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
so you are in favor of zero tolerance? why?
I never said I am..I think his punishment is more than reasonable, he has a long history of making inappropriate personal comments about people. Why do you think that me being in favor of punishing people who repeatedly break the rules means that I am in favor of zero tolerance? I don't get it...
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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HippieChick8
seeker of justice
Registered: 06/25/09
Posts: 869
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14935821 - 08/17/11 05:46 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
[The fact is, saying someone is behaving in a paranoid fashion is a personalism, and contributes nothing to the debate..since Markos has a long history of name-calling/making personal remarks about posters as opposed to discussing the topic, it makes sense to assume that he intended his comment to be insulting.
It is quite possible to be paranoid in certain situations, without paranoia being a key component of your personality.
Many people on this forum call each other "frustrated" or "jealous" as well. I've never seen them warned for it.
I don't think Markos' posts in general contain many personal remarks.
You, however, once said I had poor reading comprehension skills, (on the Spirituality board of all places) and that is a lot more of a personalism than anything Markos said.
Anyway, I have to get to work, as I am an adult.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: HippieChick8]
#14935839 - 08/17/11 05:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
Many people on this forum call each other "frustrated" or "jealous" as well. I've never seen them warned for it.
I don't think Markos' posts in general contain many personal remarks.
Diploid and I both agree that he has a long history of insulting people, and I'm sure other people here agree as well. He often psychoanalyzes people in this forum, which is not appropriate and in no way adds to any debate..I've never seen anybody else do this as much as him.
Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
You, however, once said I had poor reading comprehension skills, (on the Spirituality board of all places) and that is a lot more of a personalism than anything Markos said.
So what, this doesn't in any way justify his behavior (I don't recall ever having said that to you, BTW).
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (08/17/11 02:13 PM)
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mushiepussy
Registered: 02/06/11
Posts: 1,198
Loc:
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Re: Matrix (movie) Refrences in philosophical/political discussion [Re: Poid]
#14937217 - 08/17/11 01:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
Many people on this forum call each other "frustrated" or "jealous" as well. I've never seen them warned for it.
I don't think Markos' posts in general contain many personal remarks.
He often psychoanalyzes people in this forum, which is not appropriate and in no way adds to any debate...
This is a psychology forum, so psychoanalysis is totally appropriate and a great tool for debate.
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
HippieChick8 said:
You, however, once said I had poor reading comprehension skills, (on the Spirituality board of all places) and that is a lot more of a personalism than anything Markos said.
So what, this doesn't in any way justify his behavior (I don't recall ever having said that to you, BTW).
You say this to alot of people, though I'm not sure if it should be considered a personalism. (just very annoying)
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