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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
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Re: Why I think Sam Harris is awsome [Re: Jryan]
    #14907647 - 08/11/11 05:30 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The wars are all about the caliphate. It's similar to the way we try to spread democracy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why I think Sam Harris is awsome [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #14907654 - 08/11/11 05:31 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
The west definitly has a role, but the goal with extremist has always been a caliphate. The oppressed the fuck out of their own long before we started fucking with them.



Yeah, the extremists are definitely not going to budge based on changing our actions, but the real question is what makes an extremist.  I follow the line of thought of David Sloan Wilson, who suggests that fundamentalism has an ecology to it.  That is, there are environmental factors that influence the development of religion, and if you're in a dangerous area where your life is cheap, having a more open, tolerant theology will not help you.


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OfflineJryan
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Re: Why I think Sam Harris is awsome [Re: Silversoul]
    #14907663 - 08/11/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
The west definitly has a role, but the goal with extremist has always been a caliphate. The oppressed the fuck out of their own long before we started fucking with them.



Yeah, the extremists are definitely not going to budge based on changing our actions, but the real question is what makes an extremist.  I follow the line of thought of David Sloan Wilson, who suggests that fundamentalism has an ecology to it.  That is, there are environmental factors that influence the development of religion, and if you're in a dangerous area where your life is cheap, having a more open, tolerant theology will not help you.



I think in combination with that, they are just the perfect believer, they aren't insane or anything.  Just the perfect Muslim, who follows his religion to the T.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why I think Sam Harris is awsome [Re: Jryan]
    #14907680 - 08/11/11 05:39 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jryan said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
The west definitly has a role, but the goal with extremist has always been a caliphate. The oppressed the fuck out of their own long before we started fucking with them.



Yeah, the extremists are definitely not going to budge based on changing our actions, but the real question is what makes an extremist.  I follow the line of thought of David Sloan Wilson, who suggests that fundamentalism has an ecology to it.  That is, there are environmental factors that influence the development of religion, and if you're in a dangerous area where your life is cheap, having a more open, tolerant theology will not help you.



I think in combination with that, they are just the perfect believer, they aren't insane or anything.  Just the perfect Muslim, who follows his religion to the T.



I think it's bogus to think there's only one correct interpretation of that religion, or any religion.  In fact, the notion that there are hidden meanings in the Qu'ran is fairly uncontroversial among Muslims.  Furthermore, it's all a matter of which verses you choose to emphasize.  The violent extremists emphasize the Medinan verses which come from the time Mohammed was at war with Mecca, as opposed to the Meccan verses which were written in a time of peace.  Simply thumbing through the Qu'ran doesn't give you the historical context, which is why people turn to imams to help them understand the verses better.


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OfflineJryan
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Re: Why I think Sam Harris is awsome [Re: Silversoul]
    #14907689 - 08/11/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I think it's bogus to think there's only one correct interpretation of that religion, or any religion.  In fact, the notion that there are hidden meanings in the Qu'ran is fairly uncontroversial among Muslims.  Furthermore, it's all a matter of which verses you choose to emphasize.  The violent extremists emphasize the Medinan verses which come from the time Mohammed was at war with Mecca, as opposed to the Meccan verses which were written in a time of peace.  Simply thumbing through the Qu'ran doesn't give you the historical context, which is why people turn to imams to help them understand the verses better.



:thumbup:  As long as one of those exists though (ie the one written in time of war), I don't like the idea of Muslims.  It just seems like to me, why should I have to be killed by a car bomb because someone else believes in a book.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why I think Sam Harris is awsome [Re: Jryan]
    #14907719 - 08/11/11 05:49 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Jryan said:
:thumbup:  As long as one of those exists though (ie the one written in time of war), I don't like the idea of Muslims.  It just seems like to me, why should I have to be killed by a car bomb because someone else believes in a book.



I think the ones who set off car bombs are mad about something else in the world and are seeking justification in their book.  I agree it'd be nice if the violent stuff wasn't there, but the Judeo-Christian world has managed to smooth over all those Bible verses about slavery and stoning people to death, so I think Islam could easily accomplish the same sort of progress, especially since their own faith contains the concept called ijtihad, which basically means re-interpreting your faith in the context of your own time.


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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
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Re: Why I think Sam Harris is awsome [Re: Silversoul]
    #14907727 - 08/11/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Saw a documentary the other day on muslim extremist in the west. The way one young muslim described it is similar to you're statement, he said:" We are all angry and want the world to change. White people go to the far-right, become socialist, or put blinders on and drink into a stupor. Blacks get into urban culture or do what that whites do, and muslims go on jihad. We all want change but have different outlets for our anger."


--------------------
Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot


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