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OfflineOOOO
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 125
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Anarchy
    #1490743 - 04/24/03 08:45 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

Over in S & P, a debate about anarchy developed. It seemed like it belonged here and that people here might have some input...

Anarchy in the SP


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OfflineOOOO
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Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 125
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Re: Anarchy [Re: OOOO]
    #1490832 - 04/24/03 09:13 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

To LoOnEr:

The situation of peace and liberty you describe in anarchy is the same thing as in libertarianism.

It's just that in a constitutional libertarian state, provisions are made for when some people inevitably do not respect the liberty of others.

In anarchy, these people are allowed to undermine liberty and destroy it.

I ask you, in anarchy, what happens when someone robs another person?


Edited by OOOO (04/24/03 09:15 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Anarchy [Re: OOOO]
    #1490900 - 04/24/03 09:36 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

I ask you, in anarchy, what happens when someone robs another person?

this is a hard question to answer. your view of human nature is that which is evil, where theft/murder is something that won't go away, and is inside all of us. i disagree, human nature is good and pure.

there won't be a need to steal in an anarchist society, the individual won't act on that desire.. there won't be anything to gain...

but IF someone does.. then my belief about human nature is wrong.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
Sun-Beams out of Cucumbers
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491216 - 04/24/03 11:32 PM (14 years, 6 days ago)

Back in Junior High we used to put Anarchy symbols all over everything. Then I grew up and realized the rule of law is probably the best bet for those of us who like to live our lives comfortably....


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 14 years, 1 day
Re: Anarchy [Re: OOOO]
    #1491268 - 04/24/03 11:48 PM (14 years, 6 days ago)

Anarchy is a paradox. By promoting anarchy, you are supporting some form of order, which is exactly what anarchy is said to be against. The word "Anarchy" itself is a categorization of a type of established values, no matter how "chaotic" those values are. Complete contradiction (Just like human beings, no coincidence). Double-think.


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Anonymous

Re: Anarchy [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1491320 - 04/25/03 12:08 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

Back in Junior High we used to put Anarchy symbols all over everything. Then I grew up and realized the rule of law is probably the best bet for those of us who like to live our lives comfortably....

no, you were indoctrinated. this isn't "punk anarchy", this is anarchy with a philosophical background.


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OfflineOOOO
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Posts: 125
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Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491421 - 04/25/03 12:42 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

"but IF someone does.. then my belief about human nature is wrong."

ding ding ding!

It takes only one person to undermine anarchy.


Edited by OOOO (04/25/03 12:43 AM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491434 - 04/25/03 12:47 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

Someone will come to power to fill the void. People will also be stealing and killing each other at a record rate. Yes your view of human nature is wrong.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineOOOO
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Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 125
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491435 - 04/25/03 12:48 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

"i disagree, human nature is good and pure.

there won't be a need to steal in an anarchist society, the individual won't act on that desire.. there won't be anything to gain..."

I smell a contradiction


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Anonymous

Re: Anarchy [Re: OOOO]
    #1491481 - 04/25/03 01:07 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

i view human nature as good and pure.

yet, i say that power is a natural human emotion.

i stand by both of those statements.

in an anarchist society, "power" will be null, there will be nothing to gain from it, and as a society, it won't be expressed.

in our current system, you are rewarded for gaining power over another, so this emotion is brought out and encouraged.

i should clarify, when i described my view of human nature, that is without the constraints our current system imposes....i said it here..."the desire of man is not to kill or steal, its to live in peace. strip man down to the pure individual, in a state where no other forces are acting on him, this would be the natural state of man."


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491497 - 04/25/03 01:15 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

How exactly could one do away with power?


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineOOOO
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Registered: 04/21/03
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Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491500 - 04/25/03 01:17 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

"there won't be a need to steal in an anarchist society, the individual won't act on that desire.. there won't be anything to gain... "

How do you convince people that they personally have nothing to gain from stealing?

By letting them know that they will be held accountable if they do.

Just trusting people not to hurt eachother doesn't work. All it takes is one person to fuck everything up.

What happens when there's a guy on the block who likes to go around beating people and stealing from them? Is he left alone to do as he wishes? Isn't leaving him alone permitting someone to forcefully exercise power over other people? Isn't stopping him also a use of force?

This is not an overly pessimistic view of human nature. It is a realistic one. Humans are by nature selfish creatures, and even if 99 out of 100 individuals were good, rightous, altruistic people, that is not enough. All it takes is one person to bring your anarchist utopia to an end.

This isn't even considering that the view of anarchy you espouse is itself a paradox and a contradiction.


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Anonymous

Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491502 - 04/25/03 01:18 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

ever read the lord of the flies?


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OfflineOOOO
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Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 125
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Re: Anarchy [Re: ]
    #1491505 - 04/25/03 01:21 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

"in our current system, you are rewarded for gaining power over another, so this emotion is brought out and encouraged."

How would you build a system in which there was no reward from garnering and exersicing power?

Wait... you're not allowed to build a system... hmm... but wait... you're allowed to do anything... except exersize power.... but no... you're alowed to do anything... except... no ... wait...


Edited by OOOO (04/25/03 01:25 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Anarchy [Re: OOOO]
    #1491549 - 04/25/03 01:40 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

How do you convince people that they personally have nothing to gain from stealing?

By letting them know that they will be held accountable if they do.


With prisons at bursting level and prison numbers set to increase year on year it appears this idea isn't working.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1491554 - 04/25/03 01:42 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

Thank the drug war for that. The problem is that we put people in jail for activities between consenting adults where there is no victim.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineOOOO
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/03
Posts: 125
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1491559 - 04/25/03 01:43 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

I'm not going to respond to your off-topic quibbling, lest you kill a perfectly good thread with it the way you usually do. If you want to talk about how individuals should be punished for victimizing eachother, i will be happy to discuss that in another thread. (Unless of course, you're suggesting that individuals should not be held accountable for murder, rape, or theft, in which case i'm not going to waste my time).



Edited by OOOO (04/25/03 01:47 AM)


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Anarchy [Re: Xlea321]
    #1491581 - 04/25/03 01:51 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

If you are going to counter his argument, prison population figures alone aren't going to do it. Hell, people actually spend time in prison for trying to keep their own property or other victimless crimes. Try looking at the per capita crime statistics vs. incarceration rates for the crime(s), and also time spent behind bars for the crimes in question.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Anarchy [Re: OOOO]
    #1491584 - 04/25/03 01:52 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

What exactly is off-topic about it? You asked how do you deter people from crime - in your opinion "by letting them know they will be held accountable". We use this system already. The result? Crime is higher than it's ever been and the prisons are fill to bursting point.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Anarchy [Re: z@z.com]
    #1491597 - 04/25/03 01:55 AM (14 years, 6 days ago)

Thank the drug war for that. The problem is that we put people in jail for activities between consenting adults where there is no victim.

I'm sure if you asked Shrub to legalise drugs he would insist "there would be anarchy if we did so".



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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