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Invisiblegiza
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Registered: 08/25/09
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Some energy questions.
    #14903539 - 08/10/11 08:35 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The more mass an object has the longer it takes to burn?

Doesn't a mass that's warmed up increase in energy? As in the temperature of the metal is a way to measure the energy of it, thus heat = energy?

Couldn't we use metals as conductors of energy by heating one end and have the transfer of energy move through metals or materials that have a high heat resistence?

And if dense materials take longer to burn that less dense, then we have a long lasting energy

the object will give off a certain temperature and temperature = amount of energy being held in the object when the object increases in temperature

And what about using dense mass as in more weight per size for fuel, heat them up and the metal would soak in energy, heating at a low temperature as it starts to 'warm' up or takes in the energy from the heat and let's it build up.

Trying to learn everything over again
Will be editing.
Thanks ahead of time.

Basically the way to measure energy is by temperature?

potential energy = more dense, more 'calories' to burn
short energy = less dense = less calories to burn = faster energy transfer

Then mass is potential energy

negative temperature = mass
positive temperature = energy

If something is -200,000 degrees (mass)
it can hold 199,999 degrees of energy before balancing out, nothing = 0 or 0 = the point of becoming energy. or 0 = sound then energy

does heat move at the speed of light? since heat = energy?

Edited by giza (08/11/11 12:10 PM)

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OfflineJT
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14903680 - 08/10/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

My combustion chemistry is a little rusty but your statement that more dense matter has higher energy from burning is a pretty big oversimplification. Some densely packed matter will release a lot of energy when burned but it's all relative to the amount of energy that's put it. You can't "burn" pure iron, you can pour a shitload of heat energy and eventually vaporize it, but the specific heat is very high on iron so it's impractice. Not to mention, you need other elements (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen) to burn in varying quantities across all combustion reactions.

I don't understand how you expect transfering heat from one end of an iron pipe to the other could really be used either. Actually I'm lost with most of your post.

This damn phone keyboard...I'm not even gonna try to fix the spelling mistakes. Sorry.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: JT]
    #14903704 - 08/10/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JT said:
My combustion chemistry is a little rusty but your statement that more dense matter has higher energy from burning is a pretty big oversimplification. Some densely packed matter will release a lot of energy when burned but it's all relative to the amount of energy that's put it. You can't "burn" pure iron, you can pour a shitload of heat energy and eventually vaporize it, but the specific heat is very high on iron so it's impractice. Not to mention, you need other elements (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen) to burn in varying quantities across all combustion reactions.

I don't understand how you expect transfering heat from one end of an iron pipe to the other could really be used either. Actually I'm lost with most of your post.




That's why you would use them as the source that can provide energy that could be transferred from it to something else, it takes so much energy to fill something before it cannot hold anymore and passes it on to the next conductor or reflects it back, I think.

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OfflineJT
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14903748 - 08/10/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You would lose a ton of heat energy in the process, even if you kepthe rod below boiling point. Why do we need these anyways? Q=mc(delta)t, plug in the numbers for Fe (iron) and you will see that the mass required to store any decent amount of heat would be enormous, and that is assuming a perfect system with no heat loss.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: JT]
    #14903881 - 08/10/11 09:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So is that why a system needs a high heat resistant liquid or mass in order to keep energy contained?

Edited by giza (08/10/11 09:46 PM)

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OfflineJT
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14903900 - 08/10/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I think so. Water has an incredibly high specific heat for a liquid, which means it takes considerably more energyto heat it than others. This is why we use it to cool/keep nuclear reactors from going critical.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: JT]
    #14904264 - 08/10/11 11:24 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Molten sodium salts are being used more and more to store thermal heat nowadays...  They have a volumetric heat capacity similar to water and have some other properties which make them more useful for the purpose.

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OfflineJT
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14905568 - 08/11/11 09:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Molten sodium salts are being used more and more to store thermal heat nowadays...  They have a volumetric heat capacity similar to water and have some other properties which make them more useful for the purpose.





that's pretty cool. i had never heard of that before.

Quote:

The salt melts at 221 °C (430 °F). It is kept liquid at 288 °C (550 °F) in an insulated "cold" storage tank. The liquid salt is pumped through panels in a solar collector where the focused sun heats it to 566 °C (1,051 °F). It is then sent to a hot storage tank. This is so well insulated that the thermal energy can be usefully stored for up to a week.
When electricity is needed, the hot salt is pumped to a conventional steam-generator to produce superheated steam for a turbine/generator as used in any conventional coal, oil or nuclear power plant. A 100-megawatt turbine would need tanks of about 30 feet (9.1 m) tall and 80 feet (24 m) in diameter to drive it for four hours by this design.



from wiki.

does actually look useful if they managed to power the initial heating and pumping with "waste" energy from turbines. power plants are constantly trying to balance making just enough electricity to meet demand and limit overproduction, but invariably there will always be some amount of excess.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: JT]
    #14906219 - 08/11/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wouldn't liquid rock work as well?

Sorry, I'm a newbie when it comes to this stuff, trying to learn it.
Came up with it after remembering that our body is a certain temperature, am I on the right path or far off?

Edited by giza (08/11/11 01:00 PM)

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OfflineJT
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14906347 - 08/11/11 01:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

well I googled lava and it says its temp is in the 700-1300 Celsius range depending on the type of rock, vs. 558 for the sodium salt. Could be that it's too hot to pump through whatever they're using without melting it, could be the impurities found in rocks being dangerous (ie, toxic fumes) or leave some kind of residue. If you set up a machine that melts a certain type of rock at 1000 celsius and it has traces of something that melts at 1500 then that stuff could clog it up by remaining solid and you'd have to adjust the temp for each individual batch to prevent that. Just speculation, I'm not sure.

Rocks are used in geothermal generators sort of...but they're stationary and the heat is still actually transported by another liquid.

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14906829 - 08/11/11 02:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

giza, it seems to me that you are mixing up two things, and that is complicating your thinking. The first thing is the energy that is stored in a material that can be released through a chemical transformation, e.g. by burning it. The second thing is the heat storage and conduction properties of a material. Both of these can and will interact in any given material, but they are different concepts, and cannot be interchanged or mixed just like that.

A possible additional, third concept that may be confusing you is the amount of energy that is theoretically present in a material and that can in some cases be released through atomic reactions. This is in fact the only concept that appears to bear a direct relationship between energy and mass, through the well-known formula e=mc^2. Such general relationships between mass and chemical energy or heat storage and conduction do not exist, to the best of my knowledge. They may appear to be there sometimes, for example if you compare different types of wood - e.g. oak is more dense than poplar, and a piece of the same volume will burn longer if it's oak compared to poplar. However, this doesn't mean that the energy content in the form of chemical (supra-atomic) bonds per weight unit is also larger for oak. In fact, I'm not really sure if this is the case; the essential difference is that oak is more dense, which affects the dynamics (and most likely the efficiency) of the burning process.

As you see, a seemingly simple comparison becomes complicated quite quickly if you start to think about processes of energy transformation and transportation in materials. The latter concept, transportation, we have not covered here yet, but as I understand it (I have no particular competence in this area, so my lack of knowledge leads to simplifications, exactly like in your posts), the essence of stored heat is actually mechanical movement of the atoms in the material: they vibrate at a certain speed or vehemence. If you think of it like this, in terms of vibration (which I'm not sure how accurate this model is; please share your knowledge if I'm off), this vibration can be transferred to adjacent atoms, and thus, heat is conducted through a material. The ease with which this occurs determines the heat conductivity of a material. I'm sure electrons play a role in this as well, since heat and electrical conductivity are often correlated. So in all likelihood (but I'm deducing this from whatever limited knowledge I have of the subject), electrons, as they traverse from one atom to the next, somehow play a role in transferring mechanical movement on an atomic scale as well as electricity. If you think of an atom as a planet (the nucleus) with moons (the electrons), it is to me at least plausible that a moon that is propelled into the orbit of a new planet causes the planet to wobble; its kinetic energy is partly transferred from the electron (moon) to the nucleus (planet) it associates with.

So the best suggestion I could give, as a layman in this field, is to make yourself aware of what goes on on a molecular and atomic scale when trying to understand how materials behave. You've got to get the basics right in order to understand the holistic system.

Quote:

giza said:
Wouldn't liquid rock work as well?




Well, yes, with the limitations that JT mentions. But note that sodium salts can be thought of rock as well - brittle, soft rock, but not altogether different than other types of rock. Sure, the harder rocks tend not to be salts, if I'm not mistaken, but they are all hard materials that you could chip off chunks with a pickax. So in a way, energy systems using liquid sodium salts are actually using liquid rock.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: koraks]
    #14907395 - 08/11/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hrm, I will have to meditate on it, thank you for the response, I really appreciate it.

So is sound a player in energy, since sound causes vibrations?
And couldn't the time it takes for heat to spread in a metal measure the transfer rate of energy?

Edited by giza (08/11/11 04:46 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14907403 - 08/11/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
So is sound a player in energy, since sound causes vibrations?




Sound is vibrations, and particular kind of vibration.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14907485 - 08/11/11 04:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting, is vibration created when two forces rub or collide against each other?
And if the vibration is strong enough it could then pass through anything?

Thanks ahead of time, your help is appreciated, would rate ya but I opted out

Edited by giza (08/11/11 05:54 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14907944 - 08/11/11 06:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Vibration is a kind of broad term that could describe many different things.  Check out the wikipedia on it.  It has a cool description involving the harmonic oscillator.  The harmonic oscillator is the simplest approximation to all vibrations.  To describe more complicated vibrations you use extra terms that modify the basic harmonic oscillator.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: DieCommie]
    #14913717 - 08/12/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Is the consuming of energy 'cold'?

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OfflineJT
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14913916 - 08/12/11 11:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
Is the consuming of energy 'cold'?




Heat is a term we use to describe how fast the particles in something are moving. The hotter an object, the faster its particles are bumping into each other. On the flip side, an object's particles vibrate less at lower temperatures, until the hit absolute zero, at which point they stop moving completely. So to answer your question, as heat energy is transfered from one medium to another, the particles slow down and are perceived as colder to the touch in the losing medium, but the medium gaining the energy gets hotter.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14913969 - 08/12/11 11:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
Is the consuming of energy 'cold'?




Energy isn't really "consumed" per se...  Typically, it's just converted from one form to another, or becomes more diffuse.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14914236 - 08/13/11 01:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Very interesting..
So denser materials can be thought of having a very low degree, or even negative?

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Some simple questions. [Re: giza]
    #14915389 - 08/13/11 10:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

giza said:
Very interesting..
So denser materials can be thought of having a very low degree, or even negative?




I don't follow your train of thought...

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