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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 30 days
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Re: is the self real? [Re: g00ru]
#14893162 - 08/08/11 10:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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bhuddism does not in any way dissolve teh self - it is full of reference to people, the author. It talks about people's actions and karma. many buddhists have a reincarnation system. None of this makes any sense unless there are selves.
But yes there is a sense in which our personal 'self' is secondary to a greater unpercieved collective 'self'. But in that case, doesnt the self still exist? just more than we thought...
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Quote:
Noteworthy said: bhuddism does not in any way dissolve teh self - it is full of reference to people, the author. It talks about people's actions and karma. many buddhists have a reincarnation system. None of this makes any sense unless there are selves.
But yes there is a sense in which our personal 'self' is secondary to a greater unpercieved collective 'self'. But in that case, doesnt the self still exist? just more than we thought...
This actually depends highly on the sect. If you are talking about the Mahayana then what you say is relevant. Zen and Theravada is a different story.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile


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Re: is the self real? [Re: teknix]
#14894872 - 08/09/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think you will have to explain what you mean. The self is a fundamental aspect of language, action, thought, etc. They say there is no self but they dont really mean it. IF there is no self, it would not make sense to talk about actions or thoughts or feelings
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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This is what I've always thought.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


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Re: is the self real? [Re: Icelander]
#14895361 - 08/09/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Lots of ideas which seem correct to me in this thread, but I can't be the only one that sees this as a big language game right?
Of course if we twist our language around a little, we may bare new thoughts in our minds.
But what is it you want from having a self? What does it qualify you for? Nothing really. What is the function of being somebody? The present moment and the consciousness hold what you're seeking. When you find that love vibration, what more is there to gain? You seem to lose alertness which seems to be strongly correlated with there being a self. A self is a functionary thing. If you function, you have self, but while you're functioning you are not in the heart of God. You are not in the love vibration.
I think the idea is to die into love.
Still get up and eat breakfast, by all means. Work your job, go on that holiday, but always be present and find the best vacation is vacation from self. The most rewarding job is cleansing the sangsaric consciousness. The heartiest breakfast is positivity.
I think what we want to avoid here is FINALITY. We don't want to be all, "there is no self, the end" and we don't want to just sit there and so evidently be a self because the more important that self, the more fearful, the less effective you are as a being.
I'm pretty sure whatever we are, it's not what we think it is, or it can't be thought of.
But why think at all?
Or maybe think anew. Instead of asking, "Am I here?" try asking "Does it matter?"
Try to create chaos within yourself. The patterns will break up and you will have to default to your natural state, the nirvanic state. The love vibration. When you get there, see if these questions and concepts are even remotely interesting.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: is the self real? [Re: circastes]
#14895393 - 08/09/11 10:35 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
I think the idea is to die into love.
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
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Re: is the self real? [Re: circastes]
#14895405 - 08/09/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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it most certainly is a language game
self is just a word and not one related to something that's verified with direct experience imo (instead requires abstractions and inference) - so depending on how one defines it and everything, we can have numerous different arguments for or against
i side with the no self idea, based on the way i understand the term self, and this works well for me
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
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Re: is the self real? [Re: deff]
#14895510 - 08/09/11 11:01 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:i side with the no self idea...and this works well for me
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deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
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everything is a figure of speech, no more
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: is the self real? [Re: circastes]
#14895645 - 08/09/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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When you find that love vibration, what more is there to gain?
All sounds good, what you say, but I'm guessing very few can experience it easily.
As to your statement above the " what more to gain" is survival to reproduction of the animal body. If one stayed in a continual state of love vibration in the wild they would soon fall prey to predators. And if every one hung in that state of love then civilization would fail back into that wild state.
Now maybe for me an you we can still see the benefit cause we are not totally afraid these consequences. But most, in the throws of instinct for surviving and reproducing will not.
This is why I advocate a middle path of seeking pleasure rather that total bliss. Pleasure is easier to accomplish with some psychological work and may easily lead, as it has me to some extent in the direction you are pointing at. But very few can go from starvation (real or metaphorical) to reaching for love in one step.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: is the self real? [Re: Icelander]
#14896792 - 08/09/11 03:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: If one stayed in a continual state of love vibration in the wild they would soon fall prey to predators. And if every one hung in that state of love then civilization would fail back into that wild state.
If everyone hung out in that state of love i don't think any of us can come close to predicting what life would be like, it hasn't happened that we've seen so we can't know what the world/creation would be like.
Quote:
This is why I advocate a middle path of seeking pleasure rather that total bliss
I think its good to go for 'totalness' if you felt that nothing else but totalness could bring you pleasure
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Re: is the self real? [Re: Chronic7]
#14896827 - 08/09/11 03:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well having been in a bliss/love state myself I can tell you I wasn't interested in looking out for possible physical danger and the idea of working at a job was also far from my mind. Actually eating seemed pretty unimportant too.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos

Registered: 11/26/09
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Re: is the self real? [Re: Icelander]
#14896887 - 08/09/11 03:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Well having been in a bliss/love state myself I can tell you I wasn't interested in looking out for possible physical danger and the idea of working at a job was also far from my mind. Actually eating seemed pretty unimportant too.
kind of a paradox of nirvana
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: is the self real? [Re: Icelander]
#14896913 - 08/09/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Maybe when you experienced it it felt like an altered state, theoretically if you realized it to be the base state of your existence then surely it would become a more settled consistent experience?
I feel that a human body has a lot of inbuilt survival instincts that can take care of everything just fine
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circastes
Big Questions Small Head


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Re: is the self real? [Re: Icelander]
#14897164 - 08/09/11 04:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: When you find that love vibration, what more is there to gain?
All sounds good, what you say, but I'm guessing very few can experience it easily.
As to your statement above the " what more to gain" is survival to reproduction of the animal body. If one stayed in a continual state of love vibration in the wild they would soon fall prey to predators. And if every one hung in that state of love then civilization would fail back into that wild state.
Now maybe for me an you we can still see the benefit cause we are not totally afraid these consequences. But most, in the throws of instinct for surviving and reproducing will not.
This is why I advocate a middle path of seeking pleasure rather that total bliss. Pleasure is easier to accomplish with some psychological work and may easily lead, as it has me to some extent in the direction you are pointing at. But very few can go from starvation (real or metaphorical) to reaching for love in one step.
It confuses me that people can't experience love without a lover or without drugs. In life I think only of individuals. I think it's all in our hands and there really is no community or society worth being a part of, and if there is, the individual would be still be more important. At the end of the day, the individual is it. So I figure, can't we all just individually get our shit sorted and experience this?
Yeah in the wild it's a bit different. But there are different states of love, aliveness or ecstasy. In some of them, I talk clearer, think faster and I'm more confident. In the deeper ones, yes I begin to lose awareness of the surrounding environment and definitely care less for the hunger or future.
Certainly I better point out that this love I'm talking about doesn't require other people cooperate with you or anything is on your side or that there's harmony. It comes of itself. It is not a weak reprieve from the conditions of nature, instead it is an undefinable kind of higher inner functioning that changes the perceptions of the organism such that it sees the beauty and intricacy in the world.
Of course I have no idea why it's happening but it seems to be some kind of hard-to-define game. Not the usual sort of game, but it is THE game, the only game there is, thus it is worthy of a kind of awe and respect despite being purposeless.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: is the self real? [Re: circastes]
#14897239 - 08/09/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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you could be right, I can't say the same thing hasn't crossed my mind many many times. I'm workin it from my end trying to find out.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: is the self real? [Re: blingbling] 1
#14898886 - 08/09/11 11:01 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Compared to Eternity, even a mountain of granite is as ephemeral as a cloud. So, answer your own question, and you will have grown. 'Real' is relative to Ultimate Reality. Everything in creation should be considered to be little more than a dream image in the mind of God, a virtual reality.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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