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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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What would Jesus do?
    #14898668 - 08/10/11 12:13 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

This debate was a discussion I am having with a someone from the Hipforums.

My question is how would you answer/respond this guy if you put yourself in my shoes??

If you agree with what he say's tell me why??

Note: Answer any part you want.


Quote:




Quote:

Alphafalfa says,

Finally, why should god, if he is all powerful and benevolent give others a disadvantageous position in believing in him? The people at the times of Jesus get to see a man do incredible feats and claim that he is from god etc. Yet, he still judges us based on our faith in him and how much we follow his commandments? If I got to see Jesus perform miracles, I wouldn't doubt the existence of a god that I can't see/hear. This isn't equality and equality is the basis to compassion and love, the two most fundamental qualities to a benevolent being.

There are many more reason's why I think the god of the bible is fabricated.

But what would you say to that?







Quote:

[Response from the guy]
I'd say that reality is thoroughly ambiguous and each of us faces the challenge of making sense of it. I find existence to be absolutely amazing and mindblowing--that I am conscious, that I can think far beyond what I would need to be able to do for survival, that others seem to be able to do the same thing, and we can communicate, that (according to evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould) there were so many forks in the evolutionary road that could have led to a different outcome than intelligent life, etc. I have an intuitive sense of a Higher Power, and am reassured to know that some pretty impressive scientists are convinced of the same thing by the strong anthropic principle. But of course, they and I could be wrong. Where omnipotence and benevolence are concerned, I'm far less confident. I tend to go along with the process theologians in thinking that God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, or that He has voluntarily limited these attributes. Otherwise, how would we explain all the suffering. I'd be hard pressed to chose between Theism, Deism, Pantheism, or Panentheism on the basis of evidence and logic, although I have a strong intuitive sense of the presence of a Higher Power "in whom we live and move and have our being." Several years ago, I had a "moment of clarity' (aka religious experience, psychotic break, whatever) in which I see God everywhere, but especially in other people. The challenge to me is less believing in God than in shutting out stimulation that's sometimes almost too intense. But the existence of such an entity is less important to me than the concept of God as the Ground of Being, or the summation of all human idealism. I think that Justice, Liberty, Beauty, etc., are the ultimate reality--the things that give meaning to human existence. And that wealth, status, power, sensual indulgence and materialism are illusions--blind allies that lead to emptiness and misery.




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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibleRahz
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14899043 - 08/10/11 01:38 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I actually like that response. It could seem to be a dodge, and probably is to an extent, but it also seems like a position that has evolved. If a person can loose their religion and maintain the values that create self esteem, that's pretty cool. He's expressing a preference for the qualities he considers God like rather than requiring a fundamental answer.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: Rahz]
    #14900028 - 08/10/11 09:47 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I actually like that response. It could seem to be a dodge, and probably is to an extent, but it also seems like a position that has evolved. If a person can loose their religion and maintain the values that create self esteem, that's pretty cool. He's expressing a preference for the qualities he considers God like rather than requiring a fundamental answer.





I agree, I'd have no problems with this guy in debate.  He knows there are limits in his ability to know  with any surety what is going on.  Better get him over here as we need more posters like him.

As to Alphafalfa's post I agree there too.  Here's the part that makes me laugh.  It's when Christian's say we have free choice about going to hell or not and we are not being held hostage by a slave master god.

So lets say I'm god and here's the deal.  If you don't completely obey my every whim, no matter what your personal feeling, understanding, or ethics are I will torture you for all eternity.  And to this I must add that you must love me with all your heart and mind and if you don't I will roast you in hell because I choose it. But I want everyone to think of me as the god of love.  Now go ahead I give you free choice in the matter. :braindamage:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (08/10/11 09:55 AM)


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14900073 - 08/10/11 10:03 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

sorry dude i never liked doing anyone elses homework.  not cool.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: Icelander]
    #14900465 - 08/10/11 12:24 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Is that what Baptists teach ? I don't think many Christians believe something like this. Maybe the Jews do, and that would make it part of Christianity too, but not their main arguments.
As I see it, the saying "Do good and you come to heaven, else you will be in hell is" nothing more than "If you hold the hand into the fire it will burn or if you jump from the cliff you will get hurt - if you eat healthy and do some sports or movement then you will have a good probability from your body to enjoy a nice life". Natural law, so to say...
But that might be only my view :shrug:
Sorry if OT


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14901656 - 08/10/11 04:16 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

No not just the Baptists by a long shot.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14902523 - 08/10/11 07:24 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:

As I see it, the saying "Do good and you come to heaven, else you will be in hell is" nothing more than "If you hold the hand into the fire it will burn or if you jump from the cliff you will get hurt - if you eat healthy and do some sports or movement then you will have a good probability from your body to enjoy a nice life". Natural law, so to say...
But that might be only my view :shrug:
Sorry if OT





Actually many protestants, including Baptists, don't teach that at all, believing faith is all that is neccesary to reach salvation, heaven. 

Catholics do not believe in this, at least the church doesn't.

One of the bigger problems with the "if not god, where does morality come from" and the resultant criticisms of atheism is this fact.  Even the catholics believe you still go to heaven if you kill your town so long as you are able to make it to a priest and confess and perform penance.  My understanding is that it doesn't even matter why you killed or in what mind state you were killing in (i.e. mad and rationalizing the murders by thinking: "god will forgive me later, so who gives a fuck"), it only matters that you are sincere in your faith, confession, and penance, which I imagine is pretty easy to accomplish if you feel you'll be tortured for eternity but for the confession/penance.

Doesn't sound too morally righteous as a societal foundation to have people believing they can do whatever they want and god will save them if they only believe and confess with sincerity.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: johnm214]
    #14905541 - 08/11/11 11:46 AM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Humans make such a shit imho out of the g*d-concept.
Naturally, I suppose, people who harm others are prepared to be harmed the same way and shouldn't be surprised. They selected their own hell already in real life.
If they succeed to die before their harming life can fully reflect their shit back onto them, they at least couldn't be that happy meanwhile, as they had to worry that someone takes revenge, prevention or something, even onto their families...
I think that's the way it is. People antropomorphize their God from natural happenings, adding their own flavor to it, making god looking like an idiot.
Sorry for da ramble...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14905653 - 08/11/11 12:06 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Humans make such a shit imho out of the g*d-concept.




What species has a better handle on God?


--------------------


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14906304 - 08/11/11 03:01 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

We don't know yet. Maybe extra-terrestrial ones :smile:
Maybe humans are the sole species on earth that are able to make a concept of God at least, but they tend to f*ck it up in very subjective-related group-socialized ways.
IMO they could do a better definition of g*d...
:stoned:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14906408 - 08/11/11 03:21 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

I don't agree with this:

I think that Justice, Liberty, Beauty, etc., are the ultimate reality--the things that give meaning to human existence. And that wealth, status, power, sensual indulgence and materialism are illusions--blind allies that lead to emptiness and misery.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: Poid]
    #14906415 - 08/11/11 03:23 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

Did you get permission to take some time off? :mad:


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: What would Jesus do? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14906428 - 08/11/11 03:26 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

No, I'm a rebel. :craven:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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