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lysergicasians
Revolutionary.



Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 50
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It was all a lie.
#14873987 - 08/04/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society
that goes for anything. Gold only has value because people think it does
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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lysergicasians said: It was all a lie.
Who lied to you? I was never told that paper money had intrinsic wealth or was worth hoarding. Shittie that your peeps be deceiving you.
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Gibson33



Registered: 06/11/10
Posts: 400
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14874859 - 08/04/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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meams said:
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only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society
that goes for anything. Gold only has value because people think it does 
Exactly what I was thinking. Technically nothing has true value, it's all theoretically valued.
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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14875597 - 08/05/11 05:11 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat] 1
#14875739 - 08/05/11 06:56 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yrat said: gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it 
No, silly. Central bankers can't print more...
-Redwood bark -sand -human feces -ancient peruvian sculptures -20" box fans -etc...
See what I'm sayin? Gold only has 'value' becuase back in the day it was "deemed so". I know you're aware of this - and are probably just trying to spurn discussion. But obviously value is collectively "assigned to", not "inherent in", anything
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Visionary Tools



Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14875931 - 08/05/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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meams said:
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only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society
that goes for anything. Gold only has value because people think it does 
I keep hearing that, but there's big differences
1) Gold has kept the same value, more or less, for the past 6000 years. Six thousand years ago, gold coin can get you a set of decent clothes and a good meal. A soverign now is worth about, what, £240,£250? Decent set of clothes, even a three piece suit, and enough change for a meal.
2) Can't magic gold out of nowhere, unlike electronic/digital currency.
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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes] 1
#14875997 - 08/05/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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meams said:
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Yrat said: gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it 
No, silly. Central bankers can't print more...
-Redwood bark -sand -human feces -ancient peruvian sculptures -20" box fans -etc...
See what I'm sayin? Gold only has 'value' becuase back in the day it was "deemed so". I know you're aware of this - and are probably just trying to spurn discussion. But obviously value is collectively "assigned to", not "inherent in", anything
yes, but no.
gold became money over thousands of years of free market activity because of scarcity, the energy input required to produce it, its physical properties allowing it to function as the perfect form of money, and the inability of the various autocratic systems of control (governments, religions, etc) throughout history to produce more of it out of thin air to steal wealth via inflation of the money supply.
because it takes labor to produce more of it, gold represents a fair medium of exchange, where energy expended can be traded for energy expended. two individuals can decide on the proper exchange rate, i.e. how much energy does it take to produce a gram of gold versus how much energy does it take to produce a bushel of wheat? don't forget that the energy required to produce that gram of gold also includes the thousand other prospectors/miners who expended energy but didn't find it.
i trust the free market to settle on the most perfect form of money before i'd trust some academic in an ivory tower dictating what is and isn't money, and who should or shouldn't be allowed to "make" it.
6,000 years of history can not simply be disregarded, economic laws of supply and demand can not be suppresed. the world will soon again wake up to realize that gold is, and actually always was, the only true form of money. everything else is merely currency, including the credit/debt we know as dollars. if anyone is unaware of the difference between money and currency, a little research will lead you down a very long rabbit hole of monetary history.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14877216 - 08/05/11 02:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yrat said: gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it 
You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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zappaisgod said: You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?
Yah. And back in the times he's referring to, it was near-impossible to extract any inflationary-amount. Consequently, this piece of rock was assigned value by the masses. Like i said:
Quote:
But obviously value is collectively "assigned to", not "inherent in", anything
...all you did (yrat) is explain WHY it was assigned value.
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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: zappaisgod] 1
#14878145 - 08/05/11 06:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
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Yrat said: gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it 
You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?
like meams said, not at an inflationary rate, and plus, you have just expended a massive amount of time/labor/energy (plus all the other saps that didn't find any) that gives the gold its value. the difference in energy expended to mine 1 gram vs 100 grams of gold is clear: 100x the effort/labor. is it 100x more difficult to print a paper $100 bill versus a $1 bill?
meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best. WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of? you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.
gold's value is inherent in that it functions as the perfect form of money discovered by human society thus far. i'm not saying it will always be that way, as some day in the future the free market might settle on an even more efficient form of money than gold, but that form is certainly not paper money. and the world, having long been asleep to the paper shenanigans, is finally waking up again.
from Rome to the USA, the greatest empires in the history of the world were founded on and grew upon widely circulated and standardized gold coinage. and all of these empires collapsed once this coinage was debased and/or discontinued. there is a good reason for this: gold is honest money. when released from the shackles of monetary systems with the potential for debasement and inflation, human society flourishes and thrives, and great civilizations are built. however, once removed from this life force by individuals seeking to parasitize off the actual productive classes of society, humanity withers and retreats.
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GOLD AND ECONOMIC FREEDOM
by Alan Greenspan
An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense — perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire — that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.
In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.
Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.
The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.
What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. First, the medium of exchange should be durable. In a primitive society of meager wealth, wheat might be sufficiently durable to serve as a medium, since all exchanges would occur only during and immediately after the harvest, leaving no value-surplus to store. But where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity. Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible. More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable. Wheat is a luxury in underfed civilizations, but not in a prosperous society. Cigarettes ordinarily would not serve as money, but they did in post-World War II Europe where they were considered a luxury. The term "luxury good" implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron.
In the early stages of a developing money economy, several media of exchange might be used, since a wide variety of commodities would fulfill the foregoing conditions. However, one of the commodities will gradually displace all others, by being more widely acceptable. Preferences on what to hold as a store of value will shift to the most widely acceptable commodity, which, in turn, will make it still more acceptable. The shift is progressive until that commodity becomes the sole medium of exchange. The use of a single medium is highly advantageous for the same reasons that a money economy is superior to a barter economy: it makes exchanges possible on an incalculably wider scale.
Whether the single medium is gold, silver, seashells, cattle, or tobacco is optional, depending on the context and development of a given economy. In fact, all have been employed, at various times, as media of exchange. Even in the present century, two major commodities, gold and silver, have been used as international media of exchange, with gold becoming the predominant one. Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange. Since the beginning of World War I, it has been virtually the sole international standard of exchange. If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's divisions of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into, gold.
A free banking system based on gold is able to extend credit and thus to create bank notes (currency) and deposits, according to the production requirements of the economy. Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks). But since it is rarely the case that all depositors want to withdraw all their gold at the same time, the banker need keep only a fraction of his total deposits in gold as reserves. This enables the banker to loan out more than the amount of his gold deposits (which means that he holds claims to gold rather than gold as security of his deposits). But the amount of loans which he can afford to make is not arbitrary: he has to gauge it in relation to his reserves and to the status of his investments.
When banks loan money to finance productive and profitable endeavors, the loans are paid off rapidly and bank credit continues to be generally available. But when the business ventures financed by bank credit are less profitable and slow to pay off, bankers soon find that their loans outstanding are excessive relative to their gold reserves, and they begin to curtail new lending, usually by charging higher interest rates. This tends to restrict the financing of new ventures and requires the existing borrowers to improve their profitability before they can obtain credit for further expansion. Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth. When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade. Even though the units of exchange (the dollar, the pound, the franc, etc.) differ from country to country, when all are defined in terms of gold the economies of the different countries act as one — so long as there are no restraints on trade or on the movement of capital. Credit, interest rates, and prices tend to follow similar patterns in all countries. For example, if banks in one country extend credit too liberally, interest rates in that country will tend to fall, inducing depositors to shift their gold to higher-interest paying banks in other countries. This will immediately cause a shortage of bank reserves in the "easy money" country, inducing tighter credit standards and a return to competitively higher interest rates again.
A fully free banking system and fully consistent gold standard have not as yet been achieved. But prior to World War I, the banking system in the United States (and in most of the world) was based on gold and even though governments intervened occasionally, banking was more free than controlled. Periodically, as a result of overly rapid credit expansion, banks became loaned up to the limit of their gold reserves, interest rates rose sharply, new credit was cut off, and the economy went into a sharp, but short-lived recession. (Compared with the depressions of 1920 and 1932, the pre-World War I business declines were mild indeed.) It was limited gold reserves that stopped the unbalanced expansions of business activity, before they could develop into the post-World War I type of disaster. The readjustment periods were short and the economies quickly reestablished a sound basis to resume expansion.
But the process of cure was misdiagnosed as the disease: if shortage of bank reserves was causing a business decline — argued economic interventionists — why not find a way of supplying increased reserves to the banks so they never need be short! If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely — it was claimed — there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks ("paper reserves") could serve as legal tender to pay depositors.
When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). The reasoning of the authorities involved was as follows: if the Federal Reserve pumped excessive paper reserves into American banks, interest rates in the United States would fall to a level comparable with those in Great Britain; this would act to stop Britain's gold loss and avoid the political embarrassment of having to raise interest rates. The "Fed" succeeded; it stopped the gold loss, but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world, in the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market, triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's.
With a logic reminiscent of a generation earlier, statists argued that the gold standard was largely to blame for the credit debacle which led to the Great Depression. If the gold standard had not existed, they argued, Britain's abandonment of gold payments in 1931 would not have caused the failure of banks all over the world. (The irony was that since 1913, we had been, not on a gold standard, but on what may be termed "a mixed gold standard"; yet it is gold that took the blame.) But the opposition to the gold standard in any form — from a growing number of welfare-state advocates — was prompted by a much subtler insight: the realization that the gold standard is incompatible with chronic deficit spending (the hallmark of the welfare state). Stripped of its academic jargon, the welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes. A substantial part of the confiscation is effected by taxation. But the welfare statists were quick to recognize that if they wished to retain political power, the amount of taxation had to be limited and they had to resort to programs of massive deficit spending, i.e., they had to borrow money, by issuing government bonds, to finance welfare expenditures on a large scale.
Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset. But government bonds are not backed by tangible wealth, only by the government's promise to pay out of future tax revenues, and cannot easily be absorbed by the financial markets. A large volume of new government bonds can be sold to the public only at progressively higher interest rates. Thus, government deficit spending under a gold standard is severely limited. The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit. They have created paper reserves in the form of government bonds which — through a complex series of steps — the banks accept in place of tangible assets and treat as if they were an actual deposit, i.e., as the equivalent of what was formerly a deposit of gold. The holder of a government bond or of a bank deposit created by paper reserves believes that he has a valid claim on a real asset. But the fact is that there are now more claims outstanding than real assets. The law of supply and demand is not to be conned. As the supply of money (of claims) increases relative to the supply of tangible assets in the economy, prices must eventually rise. Thus the earnings saved by the productive members of the society lose value in terms of goods. When the economy's books are finally balanced, one finds that this loss in value represents the goods purchased by the government for welfare or other purposes with the money proceeds of the government bonds financed by bank credit expansion.
In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.
there are many out there who believe greenspan charged the US into its unsustainable credit-fueled growth bubble while at the wheel of the FED knowing full well that the end result would be a collapse of the fiat credit-based dollar and a likely return to the gold standard. time will hold the answer.
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Credit expansion can bring about a temporary boom. But such a fictitious prosperity must end in a general depression of trade, a slump. There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency involved. ~Ludwig von Mises
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Human Freedom Rests on Gold Redeemable Money
by Hon. Howard Buffett U.S. Congressman from Nebraska The Commercial and Financial Chronicle 5/6/48
Is there a connection between Human Freedom and A Gold Redeemable Money? At first glance it would seem that money belongs to the world of economics and human freedom to the political sphere.
But when you recall that one of the first moves by Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler was to outlaw individual ownership of gold, you begin to sense that there may be some connection between money, redeemable in gold, and the rare prize known as human liberty.
Also, when you find that Lenin declared and demonstrated that a sure way to overturn the existing social order and bring about communism was by printing press paper money, then again you are impressed with the possibility of a relationship between a gold-backed money and human freedom.
In that case then certainly you and I as Americans should know the connection. We must find it even if money is a difficult and tricky subject. I suppose that if most people were asked for their views on money the almost universal answer would be that they didn't have enough of it.
In a free country the monetary unit rests upon a fixed foundation of gold or gold and silver independent of the ruling politicians. Our dollar was that kind of money before 1933. Under that system paper currency is redeemable for a certain weight of gold, at the free option and choice of the holder of paper money.
Redemption Right Insures Stability
That redemption right gives money a large degree of stability. The owner of such gold redeemable currency has economic independence. He can move around either within or without his country because his money holdings have accepted value anywhere.
For example, I hold here what is called a $20 gold piece. Before 1933, if you possessed paper money you could exchange it at your option for gold coin. This gold coin had a recognizable and definite value all over the world. It does so today. In most countries of the world this gold piece, if you have enough of them, will give you much independence. But today the ownership of such gold pieces as money in this country, Russia, and all divers other places is outlawed.
The subject of a Hitler or a Stalin is a serf by the mere fact that his money can be called in and depreciated at the whim of his rulers. That actually happened in Russia a few months ago, when the Russian people, holding cash, had to turn it in – 10 old rubles and receive back one new ruble.
I hold here a small packet of this second kind of money – printing press paper money – technically known as fiat money because its value is arbitrarily fixed by rulers or statute. The amount of this money in numerals is very large. This little packet amounts to CNC $680,000. It cost me $5 at regular exchange rates. I understand I got clipped on the deal. I could have gotten $2½ million if I had purchased in the black market. But you can readily see that this Chinese money, which is a fine grade of paper money, gives the individual who owns it no independence, because it has no redemptive value.
Under such conditions the individual citizen is deprived of freedom of movement. He is prevented from laying away purchasing power for the future. He becomes dependent upon the goodwill of the politicians for his daily bread. Unless he lives on land that will sustain him, freedom for him does not exist.
You have heard a lot of oratory on inflation from politicians in both parties. Actually that oratory and the inflation maneuvering around here are mostly sly efforts designed to lay the blame on the other party's doorstep. All our politicians regularly announce their intention to stop inflation. I believe I can show that until they move to restore your right to own gold that talk is hogwash.
Paper Systems End in Collapse
But first let me clear away a bit of underbrush. I will not take time to review the history of paper money experiments. So far as I can discover, paper money systems have always wound up with collapse and economic chaos.
Here somebody might like to interrupt and ask if we are not now on the gold standard. That is true, internationally, but not domestically. Even though there is a lot of gold buried down at Fort Knox, that gold is not subject to demand by American citizens. It could all be shipped out of this country without the people having any chance to prevent it. That is not probable in the near future, for a small trickle of gold is still coming in. But it can happen in the future. This gold is temporarily and theoretically partial security for our paper currency. But in reality it is not.
Also, currently, we are enjoying a large surplus in tax revenues, but this happy condition is only a phenomenon of postwar inflation and our global WPA. It cannot be relied upon as an accurate gauge of our financial condition. So we should disregard the current flush treasury in considering this problem.
From 1930-1946 your government went into the red every year and the debt steadily mounted. Various plans have been proposed to reverse this spiral of debt. One is that a fixed amount of tax revenue each year would go for debt reduction. Another is that Congress be prohibited by statute from appropriating more than anticipated revenues in peacetime. Still another is that 10% of the taxes be set aside each year for debt reduction.
All of these proposals look good. But they are unrealistic under our paper money system. They will not stand against postwar spending pressures. The accuracy of this conclusion has already been demonstrated.
The Budget and Paper Money
Under the streamlining Act passed by Congress in 1946, the Senate and the House were required to fix a maximum budget each year. In 1947 the Senate and the House could not reach an agreement on this maximum budget so that the law was ignored.
On March 4 this year the House and Senate agreed on a budget of $37½ billion. Appropriations already passed or on the docket will most certainly take expenditures past the $40 billion mark. The statute providing for a maximum budget has fallen by the wayside even in the first two years it has been operating and in a period of prosperity.
There is only one way that these spending pressures can be halted, and that is to restore the final decision on public spending to the producers of the nation. The producers of wealth – taxpayers – must regain their right to obtain gold in exchange for the fruits of their labor. This restoration would give the people the final say-so on governmental spending, and would enable wealth producers to control the issuance of paper money and bonds.
I do not ask you to accept this contention outright. But if you look at the political facts of life, I think you will agree that this action is the only genuine cure.
There is a parallel between business and politics which quickly illustrates the weakness in political control of money.
Each of you is in business to make profits. If your firm does not make profits, it goes out of business. If I were to bring a product to you and say, this item is splendid for your customers, but you would have to sell it without profit, or even at a loss that would put you out of business. – well, I would get thrown out of your office, perhaps politely, but certainly quickly. Your business must have profits.
In politics votes have a similar vital importance to an elected official. That situation is not ideal, but it exists, probably because generally no one gives up power willingly.
Perhaps you are right now saying to yourself: "That's just What I have always thought. The politicians are thinking of votes when they ought to think about the future of the country. What we need is a Congress with some 'guts.' If we elected a Congress with intestinal fortitude, it would stop the spending all right!"
I went to Washington with exactly that hope and belief. But I have had to discard it as unrealistic. Why?
Because an economy Congressman under our printing-press money system is in the position of a fireman running into a burning building with a hose that is not connected with the water plug. His courage may be commendable, but he is not hooked up right at the other end of the line. So it is now with a Congressman working for economy. There is no sustained hookup with the taxpayers to give him strength.
When the people's right to restrain public spending by demanding gold coin was taken from them, the automatic flow of strength from the grass-roots to enforce economy in Washington was disconnected. I'll come back to this later.
In January you heard the President's message to Congress. or at least you heard about it. It made Harry Hopkins, in memory, look like Old Scrooge himself. Truman's State of the Union message was "pie-in-the-sky" for everybody except business. These promises were to be expected under our paper currency system. Why? Because his continuance in office depends upon pleasing a majority of the pressure groups.
Before you judge him too harshly for that performance, let us speculate on his thinking. Certainly he can persuade himself that the Republicans would do the same thing if they were In power. Already he has characterized our talk of economy as "just conversation." To date we have been proving him right. Neither the President nor the Republican Congress is under real compulsion to cut Federal spending. And so neither one does so, and the people are largely helpless.
But it was not always this way.
Before 1933 the people themselves had an effective way to demand economy. Before 1933, whenever the people became disturbed over Federal spending, they could go to the banks, redeem their paper currency in gold, and wait for common sense to return to Washington.
Raids on Treasury
That happened on various occasions and conditions sometimes became strained, but nothing occurred like the ultimate consequences of paper money inflation. Today Congress is constantly besieged by minority groups seeking benefits from the public treasury. Often these groups. control enough votes in many Congressional districts to change the outcome of elections. And so Congressmen find it difficult to persuade themselves not to give in to pressure groups. With no bad immediate consequence it becomes expedient to accede to a spending demand. The Treasury is seemingly inexhaustible. Besides the unorganized taxpayers back home may not notice this particular expenditure – and so it goes.
Let's take a quick look at just the payroll pressure elements. On June 30, 1932, there were 2,196,151 people receiving regular monthly checks from the Federal Treasury. On June 30, 1947, this number had risen to the fantastic total of 14,416,393 persons. This 14½ million figure does not include about 2 million receiving either unemployment benefits of soil conservation checks. However, It includes about 2 million GI's getting schooling or on-the-job-training. Excluding them, the total is about l2½ million or 500% more than in 1932. If each beneficiary accounted for four votes (and only half exhibited this payroll allegiance response) this group would account for 25 million votes, almost by itself enough votes to win any national election.
Besides these direct payroll voters, there are a large number of State, county and local employees whose compensation in part comes from Federal subsidies and grants-in-aid.
Then there are many other kinds of pressure groups. There are businesses that are being enriched by national defense spending and foreign handouts. These firms, because of the money they can spend on propaganda, may be the most dangerous of all.
If the Marshall Plan meant $100 million worth of profitable business for your firm, wouldn't you Invest a few thousands or so to successfully propagandize for the Marshall Plan? And if you were a foreign government, getting billions, perhaps you could persuade your prospective suppliers here to lend a hand in putting that deal through Congress.
Taxpayer the Forgotten Man
Far away from Congress is the real forgotten man, the taxpayer who foots the bill. He is in a different spot from the tax-eater or the business that makes millions from spending schemes. He cannot afford to spend his time trying to oppose Federal expenditures. He has to earn his own living and carry the burden of taxes as well.
But for most beneficiaries a Federal paycheck soon becomes vital in his life. He usually will spend his full energies if necessary to hang onto this income. The taxpayer is completely outmatched in such an unequal contest. Always heretofore he possessed an equalizer. If government finances weren't run according to his idea of soundness he had an individual right to protect himself by obtaining gold.
With a restoration of the gold standard, Congress would have to again resist handouts. That would work this way. If Congress seemed receptive to reckless spending schemes, depositors' demands over the country for gold would soon become serious. That alarm in turn would quickly be reflected in the halls of Congress. The legislators would learn from the banks back home and from the Treasury officials that confidence in the Treasury was endangered.
Congress would be forced to confront spending demands with firmness. The gold standard acted as a silent watchdog to prevent unlimited public spending. I have only briefly outlined the inability of Congress to resist spending pressures during periods of prosperity. What Congress would do when a depression comes is a question I leave to your imagination.
I have not time to portray the end of the road of all paper money experiments.
It is worse than just the high prices that you have heard about. Monetary chaos was followed in Germany by a Hitler; in Russia by all-out Bolshevism; and in other nations by more or less tyranny. It can take a nation to communism without external influences. Suppose the frugal savings of the humble people of America continue to deteriorate in the next 10 years as they have in the past 10 years? Some day the people will almost certainly flock to "a man on horseback" who says he will stop inflation by price-fixing, wage-fixing, and rationing. When currency loses its exchange value the processes of production and distribution are demoralized.
For example, we still have rent-fixing and rental housing remains a desperate situation.
For a long time shrewd people have been quietly hoarding tangibles in one way or another. Eventually, this individual movement into tangibles will become a general stampede unless corrective action comes soon.
Is Time Propitious
Most opponents of free coinage of gold admit that that restoration is essential, but claim the time is not propitious. Some argue that there would be a scramble for gold and our enormous gold reserves would soon be exhausted.
Actually this argument simply points up the case. If there is so little confidence in our currency that restoration of gold coin would cause our gold stocks to disappear, then we must act promptly.
The danger was recently highlighted by Mr. Allan Sproul, President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, who said:
"Without our support (the Federal Reserve System), under present conditions, almost any sale of government bonds, undertaken for whatever purpose, laudable or otherwise, would be likely to find an almost bottomless market on the first day support was withdrawn."
Our finances will never be brought into order until Congress is compelled to do so. Making our money redeemable in gold will create this compulsion. The paper money disease has been a pleasant habit thus far and will not he dropped voluntarily any more than a dope user will without a struggle give up narcotics. But in each case the end of the road is not a desirable prospect.
I can find no evidence to support a hope that our fiat paper money venture will fare better ultimately than such experiments in other lands. Because of our economic strength the paper money disease here may take many years to run its course.
But we can be approaching the critical stage. When that day arrives, our political rulers will probably find that foreign war and ruthless regimentation is the cunning alternative to domestic strife. That was the way out for the paper-money economy of Hitler and others. In these remarks I have only touched the high points of this problem. I hope that I have given you enough information to challenge you to make a serious study of it.
I warn you that politicians of both parties will oppose the restoration of gold, although they may outwardly seemingly favor it. Also those elements here and abroad who are getting rich from the continued American inflation will oppose a return to sound money. You must be prepared to meet their opposition intelligently and vigorously. They have had 15 years of unbroken victory.
But, unless you are willing to surrender your children and your country to galloping inflation, war and slavery, then this cause demands your support. For if human liberty is to survive in America, we must win the battle to restore honest money.
There is no more important challenge facing us than this issue – the restoration of your freedom to secure gold in exchange for the fruits of your labors.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14881646 - 08/06/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Yrat said: gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it 
You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?
like meams said, not at an inflationary rate, and plus, you have just expended a massive amount of time/labor/energy (plus all the other saps that didn't find any) that gives the gold its value. the difference in energy expended to mine 1 gram vs 100 grams of gold is clear: 100x the effort/labor. is it 100x more difficult to print a paper $100 bill versus a $1 bill?
1. Inflation existed with the gold standard. Or didn't you know that? 2. Gold mining is not a one gram costs the same as another gram to mine. If gold is at $32 it isn't worth digging for. If it is at $1600 there are much lower yield mines that become profitable. In your theoretical mishmash do you know a single fucking thing about gold mining? It isn't the cost of mining it that gives it its value. It is its value that decides how much you will spend to mine it. 3. Mali, a complete shithole, was #8 in 2006 for gold production. Peru was #5, Ghana #10. These countries can print money under your scheme. Japan is 29, India 51. Germany and England don't appear at all on the listQuote:
meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best. WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of? you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.
Wampun lasted for a long time too. So what? The reason why gold was used as a currency in the stone age you can't advance beyond is that it didn't rust. That is no longer a relevant feature. We have banks. Almost all financial transactions are in bytes. They don't rust either. And yes, a few guys did get in a room and assign gold a value. Sometimes they changed it.Quote:
gold's value is inherent in that it functions as the perfect form of money discovered by human society thus far. i'm not saying it will always be that way, as some day in the future the free market might settle on an even more efficient form of money than gold, but that form is certainly not paper money. and the world, having long been asleep to the paper shenanigans, is finally waking up again.
You have to be an idiot to think that gold is a convenient form of money. It is a pain in the ass to schlep that heavy shit around.Quote:
from Rome to the USA, the greatest empires in the history of the world were founded on and grew upon widely circulated and standardized gold coinage. and all of these empires collapsed once this coinage was debased and/or discontinued. there is a good reason for this: gold is honest money. when released from the shackles of monetary systems with the potential for debasement and inflation, human society flourishes and thrives, and great civilizations are built. however, once removed from this life force by individuals seeking to parasitize off the actual productive classes of society, humanity withers and retreats.
Did the Roman Empire collapse because it stopped using gold for trade?
Why not diamonds? Why not a whole bunch of other nonsense? Titanium, platinum, foreskins?
Are you so fucking ignorant that you don't realize there were "parasites" even with the gold standard? Good fucking zappa the raw trembling nonsense from the gold nuts makes my hair hurt.
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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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zappa, i will never understand why you don't believe in honest money. in your support for govt sponsored paper "money," you are no different from the liberal statists/socialists that you claim to despise. there are some serious misunderstandings evident in your post here. i suggest you read the two essays i quoted in the previous post. they will answer the questions you have raised (it is clear you did not read them) and much more. but i will answer your questions just for the sake of argument here as well...
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Yrat said: gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it 
You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?
like meams said, not at an inflationary rate, and plus, you have just expended a massive amount of time/labor/energy (plus all the other saps that didn't find any) that gives the gold its value. the difference in energy expended to mine 1 gram vs 100 grams of gold is clear: 100x the effort/labor. is it 100x more difficult to print a paper $100 bill versus a $1 bill?
1. Inflation existed with the gold standard. Or didn't you know that?
not at a rate that seriously inflates the money supply. that is the whole point of the comment, and meams', that you seem to conveniently miss.
Quote:
2. Gold mining is not a one gram costs the same as another gram to mine. If gold is at $32 it isn't worth digging for. If it is at $1600 there are much lower yield mines that become profitable. In your theoretical mishmash do you know a single fucking thing about gold mining? It isn't the cost of mining it that gives it its value. It is its value that decides how much you will spend to mine it.
you are still pricing gold in terms of dollars, which is entirely irrelevant to this conversation. you need to shift your frame of thought towards energy/labor expended, not some arbitrary paper value which you are having trouble looking past.
Quote:
3. Mali, a complete shithole, was #8 in 2006 for gold production. Peru was #5, Ghana #10. These countries can print money under your scheme. Japan is 29, India 51. Germany and England don't appear at all on the list
again, not "printing" anything if you are expending a tangible amount of energy to produce it. think of gold as a measuring stick for expended energy. i can pay for your expended energy with my expended energy, an entirely fair trade when we come to a voluntary price agreement and make a transaction.
Quote:
Quote:
meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best. WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of? you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.
Wampun lasted for a long time too. So what? The reason why gold was used as a currency in the stone age you can't advance beyond is that it didn't rust. That is no longer a relevant feature. We have banks. Almost all financial transactions are in bytes. They don't rust either. And yes, a few guys did get in a room and assign gold a value. Sometimes they changed it.
wampum is an interesting case, and i am working on an idea that, like gold, wampum had value because it took a shit ton of time and energy to produce. thus, again, it was successful money because it allowed native american society to measure energy/labor against energy/labor. your trust in banks and their government-provided monopoly to generate "wealth" out of thin air undermines your credibility and shows you for the statist that you truly are.
Quote:
Quote:
gold's value is inherent in that it functions as the perfect form of money discovered by human society thus far. i'm not saying it will always be that way, as some day in the future the free market might settle on an even more efficient form of money than gold, but that form is certainly not paper money. and the world, having long been asleep to the paper shenanigans, is finally waking up again.
You have to be an idiot to think that gold is a convenient form of money. It is a pain in the ass to schlep that heavy shit around.
the most childish argument you could have produced, on par with "you can't eat gold" (hint: you can't eat paper dollars either). that is why you have gold redeemable, or "gold-backed," paper currency. you know... king of like how the dollar started out? you would be an idiot to think that anyone would want to carry around actual physical gold. instead, you carry around paper representation of gold, which you can then take to a bank to exchange at the set rate if you require the metal. c'mon zappa, now you're just being disingenuous.
Quote:
Quote:
from Rome to the USA, the greatest empires in the history of the world were founded on and grew upon widely circulated and standardized gold coinage. and all of these empires collapsed once this coinage was debased and/or discontinued. there is a good reason for this: gold is honest money. when released from the shackles of monetary systems with the potential for debasement and inflation, human society flourishes and thrives, and great civilizations are built. however, once removed from this life force by individuals seeking to parasitize off the actual productive classes of society, humanity withers and retreats.
Did the Roman Empire collapse because it stopped using gold for trade?
actually yes, gold and silver. go research the history of the silver denarius before you make more of a fool out of yourself. if you do, you might be surprised at the parallel between gold/silver currency during the decline of Rome, and gold/silver used in US currency in the last 50 years. why do you think silver coinage was discontinued in '64? it's all about debasement of the money supply zappa, and you are convincing me more and more than you simply can not grasp this concept.
Quote:
Why not diamonds? Why not a whole bunch of other nonsense? Titanium, platinum, foreskins?
if you actually read my quoted essays in the post above, you will easily find several answers to this ridiculous question.
Quote:
Are you so fucking ignorant that you don't realize there were "parasites" even with the gold standard? Good fucking zappa the raw trembling nonsense from the gold nuts makes my hair hurt.
gold stands in the way of the welfare state and prevents the deficit spending that supports it. seriously, read those essays. you might actually see the light. by supporting a paper regime you are propping up the welfare state that you claim to oppose. i seriously can not understand why you are unable to see the glaring hypocrisy in your own philosophies.
i am not saying take the money supply back to a gold standard. what i am saying is remove legal tender laws, thus removing the state-endorsed monopoly on what can and can't be used as money, and let the free market decide what to use as a medium of exchange. yes, it would likely go back to gold and silver for a time, but there is nothing preventing humanity from settling on a different medium if it is indeed more efficient.
if paper money is indeed a more efficient medium of exchange, why does it need the state to uphold its use through legal tender laws? riddle me that one, oh genius-zappa.
Edited by Yrat (08/07/11 10:38 AM)
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,561
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14883802 - 08/07/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I used to believe in pretty much the same shit about gold as you did. It's all bullshit. Zappa knows exactly what he is talking about. The gold hype is a delusion. It has no solid value beyond what we give it. In fact, nothing has 'real' value (all value is is an opinion). It's all ridiculous hype that people who buy and trade in gold will tell you.
The roman empire didn't thrive because of gold. Most of the people under the roman flag had no access to the roman currency. They mostly traded like all other societies at the time. Instead of looking at gold as the reason a society thrives, I see a society thriving as a means to waste money on gold.
Like zappa said in his post, the countries with the most gold aren't the richest in the world. Their gold is bought up by those with actual money.
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lysergicasians
Revolutionary.



Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 50
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: PatrickKn]
#14884008 - 08/07/11 03:01 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Did the Native Americans want to trade their land for gold? Look at our history and you will understand.
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,561
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Elaborate a bit. I'm not following.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: PatrickKn]
#14884690 - 08/07/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Big waste of tree's imo.
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teknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: PatrickKn]
#14884701 - 08/07/11 09:20 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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treewood69
person



Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 606
Loc: omicron persei 8
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: teknix]
#14884776 - 08/07/11 09:45 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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good weed is best investment. It will always have value
-------------------- I have enough cents to know I dont have any sense
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DrGreenThumb865
Dude, who's got the lighter?




Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 1,967
Loc: Tennessee
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
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Quote:
treewood69 said: good weed is best investment. It will always have value
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14884994 - 08/07/11 10:55 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said: zappa, i will never understand why you don't believe in honest money. in your support for govt sponsored paper "money," you are no different from the liberal statists/socialists that you claim to despise. there are some serious misunderstandings evident in your post here. i suggest you read the two essays i quoted in the previous post. they will answer the questions you have raised (it is clear you did not read them) and much more. but i will answer your questions just for the sake of argument here as well...
There is nothing more or less statist in one currency vs another. There is nothing in the form of the currency that either causes or facilitates government spending one over the other. The form of the currency is completely and utterly irrelevant to government expansion and spendingQuote:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
1. Inflation existed with the gold standard. Or didn't you know that?
not at a rate that seriously inflates the money supply. that is the whole point of the comment, and meams', that you seem to conveniently miss.
Oh no? And why shouldn't the money supply increase with population and productivity increases? Answer is that it actually must or wealth will diminish. There hasn't been any inflation to speak of for over 2 decades. Several times there has been huge inflation under the gold standard. The form of the currency is irrelevant to inflation. It is a simpleton's argument to say that gold standard will curb inflation any better than fiat. It is historically inaccurate.Quote:
Quote:
2. Gold mining is not a one gram costs the same as another gram to mine. If gold is at $32 it isn't worth digging for. If it is at $1600 there are much lower yield mines that become profitable. In your theoretical mishmash do you know a single fucking thing about gold mining? It isn't the cost of mining it that gives it its value. It is its value that decides how much you will spend to mine it.
you are still pricing gold in terms of dollars, which is entirely irrelevant to this conversation. you need to shift your frame of thought towards energy/labor expended, not some arbitrary paper value which you are having trouble looking past.
And how is energy and labor expended counted these days? With dollars. By the way, under your gold backed currency scheme it will still be expressed in dollars. Not all gold mined is equal. Sometimes it costs about $300 an ounce and sometimes it costs $1,000 an ounce. Or didn't you know that?Quote:
Quote:
3. Mali, a complete shithole, was #8 in 2006 for gold production. Peru was #5, Ghana #10. These countries can print money under your scheme. Japan is 29, India 51. Germany and England don't appear at all on the list
again, not "printing" anything if you are expending a tangible amount of energy to produce it. think of gold as a measuring stick for expended energy. i can pay for your expended energy with my expended energy, an entirely fair trade when we come to a voluntary price agreement and make a transaction.
It is only tangible because you assign it a value. Think of dollars as a measuring stick for expended energy. It is just as easy with fiat as with commodity backed currency. Fiat also has the added feature that mineral rich nations are not favored simply because they have more rocks in the ground. Then there is the fact that you readily admit above that the value of gold has to be established through convention. Hmmmm, sounds like fiat to me.Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best. WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of? you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.
Wampun lasted for a long time too. So what? The reason why gold was used as a currency in the stone age you can't advance beyond is that it didn't rust. That is no longer a relevant feature. We have banks. Almost all financial transactions are in bytes. They don't rust either. And yes, a few guys did get in a room and assign gold a value. Sometimes they changed it.
wampum is an interesting case, and i am working on an idea that, like gold, wampum had value because it took a shit ton of time and energy to produce. thus, again, it was successful money because it allowed native american society to measure energy/labor against energy/labor. your trust in banks and their government-provided monopoly to generate "wealth" out of thin air undermines your credibility and shows you for the statist that you truly are.
Aside from the fact that wealth is not generated out of thin air (currency is not wealth. It is a measure of wealth. Fiat/commodity, it doesn't matter. And the banks existed long before we got off the gold standard. Or didn't you know that?Quote:
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Continued
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
gold's value is inherent in that it functions as the perfect form of money discovered by human society thus far. i'm not saying it will always be that way, as some day in the future the free market might settle on an even more efficient form of money than gold, but that form is certainly not paper money. and the world, having long been asleep to the paper shenanigans, is finally waking up again.
You have to be an idiot to think that gold is a convenient form of money. It is a pain in the ass to schlep that heavy shit around.
the most childish argument you could have produced, on par with "you can't eat gold" (hint: you can't eat paper dollars either). that is why you have gold redeemable, or "gold-backed," paper currency. you know... king of like how the dollar started out? you would be an idiot to think that anyone would want to carry around actual physical gold. instead, you carry around paper representation of gold, which you can then take to a bank to exchange at the set rate if you require the metal. c'mon zappa, now you're just being disingenuous.
Commodity backed currency that is arbitrarily assigned a value based on nothing other than the scarcity of the commodity, which scarcity can change at any time simply by digging in the ground, and convention. Huge difference there. Just huge. Humungous huge. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
from Rome to the USA, the greatest empires in the history of the world were founded on and grew upon widely circulated and standardized gold coinage. and all of these empires collapsed once this coinage was debased and/or discontinued. there is a good reason for this: gold is honest money. when released from the shackles of monetary systems with the potential for debasement and inflation, human society flourishes and thrives, and great civilizations are built. however, once removed from this life force by individuals seeking to parasitize off the actual productive classes of society, humanity withers and retreats.
Did the Roman Empire collapse because it stopped using gold for trade?
actually yes, gold and silver. go research the history of the silver denarius before you make more of a fool out of yourself. if you do, you might be surprised at the parallel between gold/silver currency during the decline of Rome, and gold/silver used in US currency in the last 50 years. why do you think silver coinage was discontinued in '64? it's all about debasement of the money supply zappa, and you are convincing me more and more than you simply can not grasp this concept.
The Roman Empire did not decline because of their currency. This is one of the reasons why I think the gold bugs are actually religious simpletons[quoet]Quote:
Quote:
Why not diamonds? Why not a whole bunch of other nonsense? Titanium, platinum, foreskins?
if you actually read my quoted posts above, you will easily find several answers to this ridiculous question.
No. Just do it here. Not a hard question. Why the fuck not diamonds? There is not one single feature of gold that does npot apply to diamonds or platinum.Quote:
Quote:
Are you so fucking ignorant that you don't realize there were "parasites" even with the gold standard? Good fucking zappa the raw trembling nonsense from the gold nuts makes my hair hurt.
gold stands in the way of the welfare state and prevents the deficit spending that supports it. seriously, read those essays. you might actually see the light. by supporting a paper regime you are propping up the welfare state that you claim to oppose. i seriously can not understand why you are unable to see the glaring hypocrisy in your own philosophies.
Gold does not stand in the way of the welfare state. It sure as shit didn't under FDR and they sure as shit had no problem arbitrarily changing its exchange rate with the dollar when it suited them.Quote:
i am not saying take the money supply back to a gold standard. what i am saying is remove legal tender laws, thus removing the state-endorsed monopoly on what can and can't be used as money, and let the free market decide what to use as a medium of exchange. yes, it would likely go back to gold and silver for a time, but there is nothing preventing humanity from settling on a different medium if it is indeed more efficient.
if paper money is indeed a more efficient medium of exchange, why does it need the state to uphold its use through legal tender laws? riddle me that one, oh genius-zappa.
Every nation on the planet regulates its currency. It is a necessary function of government. Do you know about what a disaster it was when banks printed their own script?
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup



Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,388
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 30 days, 20 hours
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"...banks printing their own scrip."
Is that anything different from the relationship between the federal reserve and the treasury today?
The only distinction I see that you advocate for is the ability for the government to maintain a monopoly on the printing press.
I think that you are barking up the wrong tree when you are concerned about banks issuing their own "legal tender", you are referencing wildcat banking again, yes?!? I find it odd that you appear concerned about various institutions issuing different forms of paper (?) and yet you remain mute about private minting as a viable competing alternative to the fiat (that means "by decree") money.
I maintain that competition is healthy for mediums of exchange and therefore advocate the immediate repeal of legal tender laws.
Fiat currency should have to compete with other mediums of exchange on a level playing field.
What sayest ye zap?!?
How is your dogmatic support of fiat currency truly any different from the monarchies of old who practiced seignorage?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Mr.Al]
#14885880 - 08/07/11 02:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said: "...banks printing their own scrip."
Is that anything different from the relationship between the federal reserve and the treasury today?
Yes.Quote:
The only distinction I see that you advocate for is the ability for the government to maintain a monopoly on the printing press.
I believe that is the law of the Constitution and the law of every nation in the world.Quote:
I think that you are barking up the wrong tree when you are concerned about banks issuing their own "legal tender", you are referencing wildcat banking again, yes?!? I find it odd that you appear concerned about various institutions issuing different forms of paper (?) and yet you remain mute about private minting as a viable competing alternative to the fiat (that means "by decree") money.
What do you mean by private minting? There are lots of private mints. They just aren't allowed to present themselves as US currency. Like baseball cards.Quote:
I maintain that competition is healthy for mediums of exchange and therefore advocate the immediate repeal of legal tender laws.
I and history maintain that it is idioticQuote:
Fiat currency should have to compete with other mediums of exchange on a level playing field.
Do you know why there is only fiat currency in the world, Al? Because it out competed commodity currency. Bye Bye commodity.Quote:
What sayest ye zap?!?
How is your dogmatic support of fiat currency truly any different from the monarchies of old who practiced seignorage?
The only dogma I see is from the religious L. Ron bots.
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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
There is nothing more or less statist in one currency vs another. There is nothing in the form of the currency that either causes or facilitates government spending one over the other. The form of the currency is completely and utterly irrelevant to government expansion and spending.
wrong. completely, utterly, and could not be more, wrong. a currency is indeed statist if its use is required by the state via laws enforced by the threat of violence. if the use of a currency is mandated by the state, and would otherwise collapse if not for the threat of violence enforcing its use, this is not statist? you are so far off base here it is almost painful. government spending and expansion is entirely reliant on inflation of the money supply (i.e. monopoly on counterfeiting) that funds said expansion through theft via inflation. this is not possible under a hard-backed currency, since the spending and expansion would have to be funded by direct taxation, instead of the stealth tax of inflation. such a direct taxation would soon meet resistance, and likely revolution, and thus government resorts to the more covert measure of inflation instead.
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Oh no? And why shouldn't the money supply increase with population and productivity increases? Answer is that it actually must or wealth will diminish. There hasn't been any inflation to speak of for over 2 decades. Several times there has been huge inflation under the gold standard. The form of the currency is irrelevant to inflation. It is a simpleton's argument to say that gold standard will curb inflation any better than fiat. It is historically inaccurate.
under a gold standard, money supply does increase with population and productivity, at about a 2% increase per year... coincidentally, about the rate of a healthily growing economy. even if it doesn't, however, wealth will not diminish, because prices will deflate and reward those who produce and save, instead of our current system that rewards debtors and punishes savers. the ability to save and safely store capital is the only solid foundation to any economy, and you are arguing against this fact.
are you arguing about price inflation or monetary inflation? you need to define this. i am using the classical definition of inflation: an increase in the money supply that results in an increase in prices.
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And how is energy and labor expended counted these days? With dollars. By the way, under your gold backed currency scheme it will still be expressed in dollars. Not all gold mined is equal. Sometimes it costs about $300 an ounce and sometimes it costs $1,000 an ounce. Or didn't you know that?
energy and labor expended is currently counted in dollars, but this is entirely meaningless when a group of bankers can produce more dollars willy-nilly at the drop of a hat, matched by zero energy or labor. this is the basis of the fraud inherent in a paper money system. you are unable to grasp this.
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It is only tangible because you assign it a value. Think of dollars as a measuring stick for expended energy. It is just as easy with fiat as with commodity backed currency. Fiat also has the added feature that mineral rich nations are not favored simply because they have more rocks in the ground. Then there is the fact that you readily admit above that the value of gold has to be established through convention. Hmmmm, sounds like fiat to me.
no one is assigning it value except for the free market composed of countless voluntary transactions. your argument is completely unfounded. what assigns the paper dollar value: government mandate. you are a statist.
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Aside from the fact that wealth is not generated out of thin air (currency is not wealth. It is a measure of wealth. Fiat/commodity, it doesn't matter. And the banks existed long before we got off the gold standard. Or didn't you know that?
don't even know what you're saying here. you are not making any sense. of course banks existed before gold standards. banks' business is the collective pooling and storage of wealth, no matter what form that wealth takes. your statement makes zero sense, wtf are you even saying? you support the government provided monopoly of banks to produce currency out of thin air, and take a slice of it as "profits," thus stealing value from anyone else holding dollars. you are a statist.
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Commodity backed currency that is arbitrarily assigned a value based on nothing other than the scarcity of the commodity, which scarcity can change at any time simply by digging in the ground, and convention. Huge difference there. Just huge. Humungous huge.
wrong. value is based on free market exchange by countless voluntary transactions, with prices shifting to accommodate such. if scarcity can change so easily at any time, why don't you go digging in your backyard for some gold? you are being disingenuous again.
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The Roman Empire did not decline because of their currency. This is one of the reasons why I think the gold bugs are actually religious simpletons
lol. yes. it. did. seriously, this is proven true by anyone wanting to do 5 minutes of research. when Rome began debasing its gold and silver coinage in order to inflate its money supply, and steal wealth from the citizens, it marked the beginning of the end for the empire.
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No. Just do it here. Not a hard question. Why the fuck not diamonds? There is not one single feature of gold that does npot apply to diamonds or platinum.
diamonds are neither divisible nor homogenous. platinum does function as money, mostly in russia in parallel with gold and palladium. really, just read those essays. your continued refusal to do so only paints you as ignorant.
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Gold does not stand in the way of the welfare state. It sure as shit didn't under FDR and they sure as shit had no problem arbitrarily changing its exchange rate with the dollar when it suited them.
again, read the essays to see how you are wrong. if anyone held gold under FDR, they were perfectly fine, whereas if they traded in their gold for paper dollars, they lost 60% of their purchasing power. and yet you somehow use this historical fact in support of paper "money." you are in over your head.
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Every nation on the planet regulates its currency. It is a necessary function of government. Do you know about what a disaster it was when banks printed their own script?
oooo... so it is necessary to regulate what is used by individuals as a medium of exchange? now we know for sure: you are a statist.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14886010 - 08/07/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Section 8.
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;
To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;
To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;
To establish post offices and post roads;
To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;
To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;
To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;
To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy;
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
Apparently the founding fathers, every other nation in the world and the vast majority of the world's population is too statist for you. Do you realize that simple fact makes you and the other dogmatic nuts look like idiots? Do you have any idea how simpletons would be destroyed in the anarchy you espouse? Do you know who I mean by simpleton?
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Yrat
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do you realize that what you just quoted is not the system that is in place today? and thus your argument is entirely irrelevant?
there is nothing in there that would provide government with a sole monopoly on coining money, just that it would be allowed to compete with private industry in generating the most efficient medium of exchange. that doesn't mean mandating what can and can not be used for commerce via legal tender laws... nor granting monopoly status to a private corporate bank to make the one and only legal tender.
do you ignore that gold and silver were the money that the founders had in mind? thus coining money, and fixing the standard weights and measures of such? as in, .999 fine, 1 troy oz?
tell me, what is the standard weight and measure of the fiat dollar? and does the government coin our money?
keep digging your hole.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
Edited by Yrat (08/07/11 07:51 PM)
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14887651 - 08/07/11 09:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yrat Said: meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best. WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of? you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.
Sorry I've been gone - been drivin to/from DC (finally found an apt to lease). You pretty much summed up my argument with the conclusion of the above quote: "when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations...etc"
Yes. That is how gold was 'assigned' its value. Which, if you go back to my ORIGINAL postin this thread - is exactly what I said: Gold was assigned value by the accepting populus just like fiat money is today.
The advantages of the olden days (as zappa has said) are by-and-large moot. Its desirable feature of being a stalwart against human-manipulated inflation is simultaneously its downfall, disallowing any sort of economic boost in times of need: essentially forfeiting a spiralling economy into submission until it hits rock bottom.
While this may be the "morally correct" option, I don't see it as politically or financially viable in today's world. Humans (specifically us westerners) have become accustomed to a certain baseline level of lifestyle. I'm not a huge advocate for gov't injections, but I understand their role. I can't think of a single gov't on the planet that would willingly let their national economy spiral into a perpetuating downfall. Expansionary fiscal & monetary policy allow intervening actions. I'm NOT a keynesian, but I understand their fundamental principles.
And on an entirely seperate note: You & Zappa have to stop posting these goddamn books. Do you guys actually read the multi-page documents you quote in your posts? I know I don't. If you can't sum up your argument conceisely in a few paragraphs, then its probably a shitty argument.
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Icelander
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Gibson33]
#14887708 - 08/07/11 09:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Gibson33 said:
Quote:
meams said:
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only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society
that goes for anything. Gold only has value because people think it does 
Exactly what I was thinking. Technically nothing has true value, it's all theoretically valued.
Really? What about things like food, shelter, water, etc.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DieCommie

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Icelander]
#14887765 - 08/07/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Gibson33 said:
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meams said:
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only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society
that goes for anything. Gold only has value because people think it does 
Exactly what I was thinking. Technically nothing has true value, it's all theoretically valued.
Really? What about things like food, shelter, water, etc.
Those only have value with respect to wanting to stay alive. There is no inherent value in anything, only value with respect to some thing.
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14888831 - 08/08/11 05:39 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
Yrat Said: meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best. WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of? you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.
Sorry I've been gone - been drivin to/from DC (finally found an apt to lease). You pretty much summed up my argument with the conclusion of the above quote: "when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations...etc"
Yes. That is how gold was 'assigned' its value. Which, if you go back to my ORIGINAL postin this thread - is exactly what I said: Gold was assigned value by the accepting populus just like fiat money is today.
well yes, but there is a huge difference. the use of fiat is mandated by government decree, instead of being voluntarily chosen by the free market. other than that, yes, i agree.
Quote:
The advantages of the olden days (as zappa has said) are by-and-large moot. Its desirable feature of being a stalwart against human-manipulated inflation is simultaneously its downfall, disallowing any sort of economic boost in times of need: essentially forfeiting a spiralling economy into submission until it hits rock bottom.
While this may be the "morally correct" option, I don't see it as politically or financially viable in today's world. Humans (specifically us westerners) have become accustomed to a certain baseline level of lifestyle. I'm not a huge advocate for gov't injections, but I understand their role. I can't think of a single gov't on the planet that would willingly let their national economy spiral into a perpetuating downfall. Expansionary fiscal & monetary policy allow intervening actions. I'm NOT a keynesian, but I understand their fundamental principles.
if you read the greenspan essay i quoted, you will see an explanation of why this is actually a good thing. have you ever read greenspans gold essay? it is really quite fascinating considering his talking points now... especially this one from yesterday:
Quote:
And on an entirely seperate note: You & Zappa have to stop posting these goddamn books. Do you guys actually read the multi-page documents you quote in your posts? I know I don't. If you can't sum up your argument conceisely in a few paragraphs, then its probably a shitty argument.
i have read those two gold essays i posted multiple times. i recommend them to anyone interested in learning a little bit of economics/history, even if the main arguments are not agreed with. you should really read them meams. smoke a bowl one night and go through both... they don't take much more than 10 min to read.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14889406 - 08/08/11 09:27 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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K - will do. As soon as I can smoke again 
I'll likely read them before, regardless.
But i stand by my contention that essays should not merely be posted-in-full in teh stead of an argument. Surmise it yourself, link the essay for those who wantmore. Otherwise, we could simply have a link-war-debate, which, i'm sure, nobody would consider valuable.
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well yes, but there is a huge difference. the use of fiat is mandated by government decree, instead of being voluntarily chosen by the free market. other than that, yes, i agree.
Valid point. Sadly it ends in the same result - and one that supports my argument. The fiat money of today has value because the masses recognize that it does. Whether it was "deemed so" by thousands of years of transactions (as in gold), or by a one-time government decree (fiat), the end result is ONLY VIABLE if the masses continue to recognize the assigned value.
OUr gov't could say "1992 Volvo's are the new currency, paper money is useless". And nobody would listen. And volvo's would be worth the same they are now.
Its not the origin that is relevant, its the means of perpetuation.
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14889430 - 08/08/11 09:34 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said: do you realize that what you just quoted is not the system that is in place today? and thus your argument is entirely irrelevant?
there is nothing in there that would provide government with a sole monopoly on coining money, just that it would be allowed to compete with private industry in generating the most efficient medium of exchange. that doesn't mean mandating what can and can not be used for commerce via legal tender laws... nor granting monopoly status to a private corporate bank to make the one and only legal tender.
do you ignore that gold and silver were the money that the founders had in mind? thus coining money, and fixing the standard weights and measures of such? as in, .999 fine, 1 troy oz?
tell me, what is the standard weight and measure of the fiat dollar? and does the government coin our money?
keep digging your hole.

It never fucking ends. It says, "to coin money and regulate the value thereof." It does not specify the form in any way at all. As to fixing the standards of weights and measures that does not specifically apply to coinage. Note the clause in between the two; "To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures". Does the Constitution also grant powers to fix the standards and weights of foreign coins? No, obviously, it does not.
I don't know what the standard weight of a dollar is but I guarantee it has one. Even during the gold standard days there wasn't 20 dollars worth of gold in a twenty dollar gold coin. You weren't trading bullion.
Nor can you back up either claim that the gold standard protects against inflation as the word is commonly used http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/HistoricalInflation.aspx?dsInflation_currentPage=5
Or that the gold standard prevents government deficit spending http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html
Every government in the world reserves the right to coin money to itself. When the US didn't it was chaos.
The particular choice of gold as a medium is itself arbitrary. Arbitrarily choosing gold has a disproportionate international effect in that many shitholes have a lot of gold in the ground and many economic powerhouses have none to speak of.
The government can at any time it wishes adjust the gold reserve standard (and has). http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-takes-united-states-off-gold-standard
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On April 5, 1933, Roosevelt ordered all gold coins and gold certificates in denominations of more than $100 turned in for other money. It required all persons to deliver all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates owned by them to the Federal Reserve by May 1 for the set price of $20.67 per ounce. By May 10, the government had taken in $300 million of gold coin and $470 million of gold certificates. Two months later, a joint resolution of Congress abrogated the gold clauses in many public and private obligations that required the debtor to repay the creditor in gold dollars of the same weight and fineness as those borrowed. In 1934, the government price of gold was increased to $35 per ounce, effectively increasing the gold on the Federal Reserve's balance sheets by 69 percent. This increase in assets allowed the Federal Reserve to further inflate the money supply.
They took the gold away for $20 then resold it for $35. Yes, they government can do that even with gold currency.
The money supply must expand as production and population grow else everyone will have less each year.
Flexibility is a good and Constitutionally mandated role of the federal government regarding the regulation of the money.
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: The money supply must expand as production and population grow else everyone will have less each year.
Flexibility is a good and Constitutionally mandated role of the federal government regarding the regulation of the money.
Yrat. I want you to pay close attention to these last two sentences, from Zappa's last post.
Specifically the first. It is paramount to our debate here.
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14890022 - 08/08/11 12:25 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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(ignoring for a moment that a gold supply is actually increased at a rate of ~2% per year...)
i believe that is a common misunderstanding of a static-money supply system.
people will not have less each year, as zappa assumes. instead, the purchasing power of each unit of money increases in order to match the growth in goods. this occurs in the form of slowly dropping prices, as each unit of money can buy more over time, but not drastically more. it is the opposite effect that we have today, where purchasing power of each unit of money is eroded via inflation of the money supply, which we witness as the constant increase in prices.
not to mention that the currenct rate of currency production, and that of the past several decades, far outpaces that of population and economic growth, otherwise we should see no increase in prices at all. thus, zappa's argument is meaningless.
in the current system, people DO have less and less each year as inflation erodes away their purchasing power. zappa, how do you manage to convince yourself otherwise??
a system of static money supply rewards savers, promotes production, and allows for the safe storage of capital, all vital pillars of any economic foundation. what we have today is a foundation built on sand, nevermind the inherent problems in a system based on credit and compound interest. there is only one way for it to all end...
the essays i posted should not be taken as substitutes for my arguments, but rather references and support. they truly are fascinating articles, and i know zappa could learn a lot from them if he weren't stubborn enough to refuse to read them.
zappa, there is no point in continuing to respond to you as you fail time and time again to understand the very materials you are posting. if you think anyone actually turned in their gold during FDR's confiscation, you are very mistaken. back then people actually understood the role of gold in the global monetary system, unlike the sheeple of today. they knew the govt was about to devalue the dollar by 60%. anyone who turned in their gold lost 60% of their savings overnight. that is the flaw inherent in government mandated fiat. why do you think they made holding gold illegal? it was in order to force everyone into the fiat system so they could steal value from their savings through inflation in order to pay for their runaway spending. the very fact that gold had to be outlawed was because it functions as real money!
imagine one big bank run, where many paper receipts have been printed reedemable for gold in the bank's vault. except that the bankers have printed many more receipts than there is actual gold... causing depositors to make a run on the bank to withdraw what they believe is the gold they own in the vault. this is what happened resulting in FDR's confiscation (hitler, lenin, and stalin also made gold illegal to own... why do you think that is? READ BUFFET'S ESSAY!!), and then again after WWII and during vietnam. the govt printed many more gold-backed $s than there was gold in the treasury. france called this bluff, and started exchanging its reserves for physical metal. this forced nixon to close the gold window for good, canceling the convertability of the once-backed paper into metal. this was the US defaulting on its obligations to pay its contractual debts. everything since then has been a big paper ponzi game to pretend that default never happened. the only problem is that the compound interest is starting to go exponential, and you can not continue to grow credit exponentially in a finite system. we are at the end game. this is the fraud inherent to all paper currencies that always results in their collapse. not to mention the problems with providing just a few people with the ability to inflate (read: monopoly on counterfeiting) the currency supply.
zappa, do you understand that it is not our government that controls nor "regulates" our currency? but rather a private corporate bank? i don't understand how you can make arguments about how government needs to regulate the medium of exchange (statist!) when that is not even the case today.
a freely inflatable money supply is what funds the gargantuan state excess that you continuously rail against, and yet you also continuously support the very system that allows it to exist! doublethink much? unreal...
meams, i am interested in your thoughts on the essays when you are finished with them. especially greenspan's, in light of his more current positions and actions...
Edited by Yrat (08/08/11 12:37 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14890146 - 08/08/11 12:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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1. The point of that piece on FDR's gold flim flam was that the government in less than one year adjusted the value of gold vis-a-vis the dollar by 69%. They can do it any time they want contra your assertions that the gold standard prevents it. 2. The government deliberately established the quasi private bank to regulate the currency in order to insulate it from the daily vicissitudes of political wrangling. It is on purpose and for good reason.
Inflation is peanuts and wages also rise. But that is irrelevant to the argument that the gold standard will eliminate it. As I have demonstrates, it does not.
You continue to look to an utterly simplistic solution that neither addresses your concerns (inflation and government manipulation) nor is there anything inherently problematic about fiat currency. Our difficulties are 100% the result of government interference in the housing and other markets and overall liberal "fairness" bullshit that rewards bums at the expense of the useful. It doesn't have one fucking thing to do with the form of the currency. None. If you want to keep your assets in gold, knock yourself out.
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: You continue to look to an utterly simplistic solution that neither addresses your concerns (inflation and government manipulation) nor is there anything inherently problematic about fiat currency. Our difficulties are 100% the result of government interference in the housing and other markets and overall liberal "fairness" bullshit that rewards bums at the expense of the useful. It doesn't have one fucking thing to do with the form of the currency. None. If you want to keep your assets in gold, knock yourself out.
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14890225 - 08/08/11 01:08 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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nothing problematic with fiat currency, eh boys?
k, i'll remember that one.
it's just funny, ya know, looking at the results of all the countless attempts at fiat currency over the past thousands of years...
oh, right... it's different this time.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14890277 - 08/08/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes. fiat money is fine.
Quote:
Our difficulties are 100% the result of government interference
[and b4 you rebutt. fed =/= gov't]
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14890297 - 08/08/11 01:22 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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ouch. i'm hurt that you think i would make such an amateur mixup
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14890331 - 08/08/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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haha I promise i think better of you. i PROMISE. i just wanted to clarify, because all those other times where fiat money was tried failed, it was controlled directly by the politicians running the government.
in this case, we have a quasi-independent body with individual mandates, more-or-less immune from teh whims of the currently-elected-politicians.
perfect system? definitely not. best of the rest? i think so.
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14902993 - 08/10/11 07:05 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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the currency IS backed by a commodity...human labor... specifically and literally
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Yrat
Hello

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14903381 - 08/10/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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meh, dollars are backed more by oil that anything else. surely you know about the petrodollar?
as long as saudi arabia continues to accept dollars for oil, the world will continue to run on dollars. the question is, how long will this relationship last. the saudi royals are undoubtedly concerned about accepting ever more devalued paper for their exported energy. they will want a change soon.
after all, any country that ponders taking payment for oil in anything other than dollars gets a swift kick in the ass via invasion and war, see iraq and libya for prime examples...
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14903561 - 08/10/11 08:40 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said: the saudi royals are undoubtedly concerned about accepting ever more devalued paper for their exported energy.
Oh wait, how did the House of Saud come to power? Thtas right, America.
They won't leave us, worry not.
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14903603 - 08/10/11 08:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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they will leave as soon as there is a more lucrative offer. it won't be long. they know they are currently getting the short end of the deal. there's also the question of whether or not they can remain the largest oil exporter for much longer... how long until reserves start drying up?
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14903606 - 08/10/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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no i'm talking about the dollar itself is backed by labor via suretyship. the bonds that are issued to get the dollars printed in the first place, have human labor backing them
Edited by AkhenAton (08/10/11 08:52 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14905491 - 08/11/11 09:33 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said: they will leave as soon as there is a more lucrative offer.
As soon as the downgrade was announced people fled stocks and moved into Treasuries. Who do you think is more lucrative? Europe? China? Puhleeeze.Quote:
it won't be long. they know they are currently getting the short end of the deal. there's also the question of whether or not they can remain the largest oil exporter for much longer... how long until reserves start drying up?
And when they are no longer a huge exporter of oil who will give a fuck? I say we drink their milkshake all up as fast as we can so we can stop giving caring about them.
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: And when they are no longer a huge exporter of oil who will give a fuck?
lol i didnt even think of this. very true.
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Yrat
Hello

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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Yrat said: it won't be long. they know they are currently getting the short end of the deal. there's also the question of whether or not they can remain the largest oil exporter for much longer... how long until reserves start drying up?
And when they are no longer a huge exporter of oil who will give a fuck? I say we drink their milkshake all up as fast as we can so we can stop giving caring about them.
right... that's exactly my point... or are you not following?
the saudis have a deal to take paper dollars for their oil. since they are the #1 producer out there, essentially all oil is traded for dollars globally (dollars backed by oil = petrodollar).. BUT if they lose this top spot, i'm not sure that the next biggest producers in line have made that same deal to accept paper dollars...
see what i'm saying? if the dollar is backed up primarily by oil trading (read: energy supplying the global economy), and then loses that backing... poof.
if saudi arabia can no longer support the petrodollar, other suppliers will probably want something else in exchange for their tangible goods.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton] 1
#14905976 - 08/11/11 11:47 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
AkhenAton said: no i'm talking about the dollar itself is backed by labor via suretyship. the bonds that are issued to get the dollars printed in the first place, have human labor backing them
i think i know where you are going with this, and am interested. elaborate, please.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14906327 - 08/11/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm no expert on Saudi oil stocks, but I think by the time theirs depletes to an insubstantial number, alternative energies would be more prevolent in our global economy. Already shale extraction is leading to vast new cache's here in North America natural gas reserves --- not to mention the global stores that will be available.
Remember, as the price of oil rises, the relative attractiveness of alternative measures become ever-greater. It is not cost that is relevant, but relative cost.
http://www.economist.com/node/21525381
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14906333 - 08/11/11 01:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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And we still haven't figured out efficient means of utilizing the sun's energies. Eventually these will be realized, and the results, enormous.
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14906532 - 08/11/11 01:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
Quote:
AkhenAton said: no i'm talking about the dollar itself is backed by labor via suretyship. the bonds that are issued to get the dollars printed in the first place, have human labor backing them
i think i know where you are going with this, and am interested. elaborate, please.
are you familiar with suretyship? in ancient times, and even til today a person could pledge the future labor of someone else in the form of services due or to be performed placing them into bondage and servitude. in feudalism, those in the lower levels of the feud would pledge homage and fealty to the lord and the estate in the form of security. under marxist capitalism, the number one commodity is labor..
what is the collateral backing the bonds that treasury pledges to the federal reserve? what is a constitutor, accomodation party, peonage, and what is the duty that a surety have to perform for its principal?
http://indianpcpals.com/dictionary/legal/C/Constitutor.htm
Constitutor
Constitutor
Civil law. He who promised by a simple pact to pay the debt of another; and this is always a principal obligation.
Bouvier Law Dictionary 1856
CONSTITUTOR, civil law. He who promised by a simple pact to pay the debt of another; and this is always a principal obligation. Inst. 4, 6, 9.
Accommodation Party Also found in: Dictionary/thesaurus, Financial, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia
One who signs a Commercial Paper for the purpose of lending his or her name and credit to another party to the document—the accommodated party—to help that party obtain a loan or an extension of credit.
A person wanting to obtain a car loan, for example, may offer a finance company a promissory note for the amount of the requested loan, promising to repay the amount over a number of years. If the company does not consider the person a good credit risk (one who will be able to repay the loan), it will request that someone else sign the note to ensure that the company will be repaid. Such a person may be an accommodation endorser, because he or she endorses the note after it has been completed, or an accommodation maker, because he or she must sign the note with the accommodation party.
An accommodation party is liable to the person or business that extended credit to the
accommodation party, but not to the accommodated party. The accommodation party is liable for the amount specified on the accommodation paper. If an accommodation party repays the debt, he or she can seek reimbursement from the accommodated party.
US Constitution 14th Amendment Amendment XIV
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Did you know that the only reason the US has money is because it extends credit over to the Fed Reserve in the form of bonds. So what is backing the bonds? It seems that the US is the guarantor/principal and the labor of the people have become sureties i.e. constitutors who cannot question the public debt...
Edited by AkhenAton (08/11/11 01:56 PM)
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14906623 - 08/11/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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did you know there were penalties for being in debt and never paying, or not having the ability to pay due to insolvency? the estates are under civil death under law merchant and have no equity and become corps under the law...what happens when you go to a restaurant, eat and cannot pay the bills? you work it off..
Peonage
A condition of enforced servitude by which a person is restrained of his or her liberty and compelled to labor in payment of some debt or obligation.
Further indentured servitude, because an indenture is any securities outstanding, like bonds or the like. stock, controlling rights.. security.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/15/usc_sec_15_00000077-ccc000-.html
TITLE 15 > CHAPTER 2A > SUBCHAPTER III > § 77ccc
§ 77ccc. Definitions
When used in this subchapter, unless the context otherwise requires—
(7) The term “indenture” means any mortgage, deed of trust, trust or other indenture, or similar instrument or agreement (including any supplement or amendment to any of the foregoing), under which securities are outstanding or are to be issued, whether or not any property, real or personal, is, or is to be, pledged, mortgaged, assigned, or conveyed thereunder.
Edited by AkhenAton (08/11/11 02:07 PM)
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14906695 - 08/11/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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how do you think we might be able to escape our current system of servitude? or will the constant erosion of liberties, to gain greater control, continue unabated until we wake up with shackles already bound to us?
will the elite allow the population to reject the very monetary system that robs them of their productivity and binds them via suretyship?
or will we get strapped in with increasingly more draconian control?
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14906696 - 08/11/11 02:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Yrat said: it won't be long. they know they are currently getting the short end of the deal. there's also the question of whether or not they can remain the largest oil exporter for much longer... how long until reserves start drying up?
And when they are no longer a huge exporter of oil who will give a fuck? I say we drink their milkshake all up as fast as we can so we can stop giving caring about them.
right... that's exactly my point... or are you not following?
the saudis have a deal to take paper dollars for their oil. since they are the #1 producer out there, essentially all oil is traded for dollars globally (dollars backed by oil = petrodollar).. BUT if they lose this top spot, i'm not sure that the next biggest producers in line have made that same deal to accept paper dollars...
see what i'm saying? if the dollar is backed up primarily by oil trading (read: energy supplying the global economy), and then loses that backing... poof.
if saudi arabia can no longer support the petrodollar, other suppliers will probably want something else in exchange for their tangible goods.
The dollar is not backed up primarily by oil trading Petrodollar? This is why I discount most of what you say. It is part and parcel of the deranged and discredited alarmist nitwittery I have heard my whole life.
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14906711 - 08/11/11 02:20 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: It is part and parcel of the deranged and discredited alarmist nitwittery I have heard my whole life.
As proof:
Quote:
Yrat said: how do you think we might be able to escape our current system of servitude? or will the constant erosion of liberties, to gain greater control, continue unabated until we wake up with shackles already bound to us?
will the elite allow the population to reject the very monetary system that robs them of their productivity and binds them via suretyship?
or will we get strapped in with increasingly more draconian control?
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14906731 - 08/11/11 02:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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i am interested AkhenAton's answers, that is all.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Yrat
Hello

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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Yrat said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Yrat said: it won't be long. they know they are currently getting the short end of the deal. there's also the question of whether or not they can remain the largest oil exporter for much longer... how long until reserves start drying up?
And when they are no longer a huge exporter of oil who will give a fuck? I say we drink their milkshake all up as fast as we can so we can stop giving caring about them.
right... that's exactly my point... or are you not following?
the saudis have a deal to take paper dollars for their oil. since they are the #1 producer out there, essentially all oil is traded for dollars globally (dollars backed by oil = petrodollar).. BUT if they lose this top spot, i'm not sure that the next biggest producers in line have made that same deal to accept paper dollars...
see what i'm saying? if the dollar is backed up primarily by oil trading (read: energy supplying the global economy), and then loses that backing... poof.
if saudi arabia can no longer support the petrodollar, other suppliers will probably want something else in exchange for their tangible goods.
The dollar is not backed up primarily by oil trading Petrodollar? This is why I discount most of what you say. It is part and parcel of the deranged and discredited alarmist nitwittery I have heard my whole life.
do a little research on the petrodollar before you discount it so quickly. it would do you well.
energy is what runs the world. we can spout off about alternative energy all we want, but nothing comes close to oil right now, and nothing will for a very long time. energy runs the world. saudi arabia exports most of the worlds energy. they accept dollars in return for help in building up their country's infrastructure out of a barren desert. after the trade, dollars = oil energy. as soon as they dont want them anymore, $$$s won't buy anything at all.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
Edited by Yrat (08/11/11 02:33 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14906749 - 08/11/11 02:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wasn't born yesterday. That stupidity has been batted around for decades.
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memes
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People often elude to the things the world can do to the US to irrevocably harm our economy/people/nation. China calling in its debts, Oil being backed in something other than dollars, the US dollar being removed from its spot as the world reserve currency...
and yet, our military might remains as a machiavellian reminder that such things will not come to pass.
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14906944 - 08/11/11 03:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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very true. unfortunately, the military is being used to strong-arm others into staying in the fraudulent paper ponzi, against their own best interests. saddam was one of the first to ask for euros for his oil... look what happened soon after....
ghaddafi wanted to set up an african currency based on trading oil for gold... what happened to his country as well...
i am wondering how long the rest of the world will accept such strong-arm tactics.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14906984 - 08/11/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said: how do you think we might be able to escape our current system of servitude? or will the constant erosion of liberties, to gain greater control, continue unabated until we wake up with shackles already bound to us?
will the elite allow the population to reject the very monetary system that robs them of their productivity and binds them via suretyship?
or will we get strapped in with increasingly more draconian control?
The first question is very complex and and I cannot address it here as I fear exhausting the concepts involved will take away what this particular thread was designed for. But maybe at another time. One alternative is to create your own nation, with your own charter and go to the UN and sign a peace treaty with the entities and become eligible for a charitable trust known as a RES-ervation. you have the right to self determination and that is about all.
In addition, since there is a national debt, there are no freehold estates, so as long as you live on the lord's, i.e. creditors land, and his watchdogs, agents i.e. government, have a duty to bash your head in when you don't follow the lords rules.
First people need to become more knowledgeable about what kind of system they are operating and its ALL under the old law forms, which are heavily coded in law today. thats why its called code. its so much legalese and jargon that it deserves its own thread.But bottom line is Fed RES-erve notes are trust funds, and as long as you use those trust funds a whole heap of liabilities come along with it.
Back to Real Estate Definitions 'T' Trust res
A property which is the subject of a trust.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopica03.pdf
Who are the parties to a trust?, Continued Property Alternative names for the property transferred to the trust are the: Capital Corpus Estate Principal Res
Edited by AkhenAton (08/11/11 03:20 PM)
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14908078 - 08/11/11 07:19 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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petrodollar discussion towards the end
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Mr.Al
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I wasn't born yesterday. That stupidity has been batted around for decades.
Commodities have existed as money at least since the beginning of recorded history.
I am perplexed as to how this continues to be your intellectual blind spot.
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Mr.Al]
#14921221 - 08/14/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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So has inflation. I am perplexed as to how this continues to be your intellectual blind spot.
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memes
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Cuz he's Mr. Al ---- thast why i have had him on nignore for the past 3 years. (I can see the Re: Mr. Al in your post -- the only reason i know wtf yer talkin about)
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Mr.Al]
#14921331 - 08/14/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I wasn't born yesterday. That stupidity has been batted around for decades.
Commodities have existed as money at least since the beginning of recorded history.
I am perplexed as to how this continues to be your intellectual blind spot.
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Mr.Al
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: I wasn't born yesterday. That stupidity has been batted around for decades.
Commodities have existed as money at least since the beginning of recorded history.
I am perplexed as to how this continues to be your intellectual blind spot.
The central planners have been distorting the American economy since 1913. An examination of history proves that fiat money is prone to self destruction through inflation. I can see that there will be a transition away from using the F.R.N.s due to the moral economic hazards inherent in the present monetary system.
An inflationary monetary system hurts the poor and middle class the most. The present monetary system fosters the development of a greater gap between the exceedingly wealthy and average income folk.
Inflation pays off for those who gain the initial purchasing opportunity utilizing the newly created fiat money. The new money initially has the same purchasing power of the money that was already circulating. This is the same morality and effect of the counterfeiter who robs people of the value of their money by watering down the money supply.
When the federal reserve is a net buyer of T-Bills they are monetizing debt.
I'm sure you've noticed that when a credit agency that rates sovereign debt downgrades a country's credit rating it is usually a late indication of a problem...
Edited by Mr.Al (08/14/11 10:42 PM)
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zappaisgod
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Mr.Al]
#14925041 - 08/15/11 09:48 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would say that having government debt that is about 100% of the GDP is a bit of a credits problem. Especially since the only plan is to continue to raise it. Further, when they downgraded the rating what did investors (not just the Fed) do? They bought T-Bills.
There is very little inflation, Al. The gap between rich and poor did not grow because the poor were making less than they had before.
You see a lot of things, Al. You've been seeing them for some time. Put your smart money where your smart mouth is and get rich.
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HarveyWalbanger
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14933256 - 08/16/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said: under a gold standard, money supply does increase with population and productivity, at about a 2% increase per year... coincidentally, about the rate of a healthily growing economy. even if it doesn't, however, wealth will not diminish, because prices will deflate and reward those who produce and save, instead of our current system that rewards debtors and punishes savers. the ability to save and safely store capital is the only solid foundation to any economy, and you are arguing against this fact.
I'll argue that fact. ..Gold does not occur naturally on earth. It was all produced from various supernova nucleosynthesis processes and deposited here during the late heavy bombardment, which is why it's rare on earth. It is, however extremely common in space.
Take the asteroid 433 Eros for example. On January 31, 2012; it will pass by earth 16,600,000 miles away (only about 70 times the distance from the moon. Well worth the reward). In it rests atleast 5.6 trillion dollars of gold, and several trillion more dollars of other precious and common metals. That one rock has more precious metal than has ever been mined in the history of earth... what do you suppose doubling the earth's supply of gold would do to inflation?
..and if we mined a second asteroid? Psht, The price of gold would never see the light of day again. It'd be worth less than coal. (especially since coal is a far more useful and rare substance in the grand scheme of things) Your idea is held together entirely by the fact that it's rare on earth right now. It may not be forever.
Edited by HarveyWalbanger (08/16/11 11:33 PM)
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Yrat
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if the gold supply was increased by the massive amount of time, resources, labor, etc to mine a FUCKING ASTEROID, then i would say that the gold would rightfully represent some serious productivity and thus add appropriate value to the money supply.
your argument might hold some water if such a situation was feasible within the next couple hundred years, let alone the next couple dozen, but it is not.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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d0pe
It'll all make sense in time

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14933779 - 08/16/11 08:20 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Rumor has it gold is the reason we were put here
-------------------- Shuttin the place down since 04
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Yrat
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: d0pe]
#14933815 - 08/16/11 08:26 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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the Sumerians were onto something
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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HarveyWalbanger
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14933838 - 08/16/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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You didn't even touch the deflation part. You seem to think it'll symbolize a lot of productivity instead of making it as common as copper. (FWIW: copper and silver are far more industrially useful. Gold's only major use is coinage)
The idea it's worth something is based on an ancient perceived value, and people's belief in it's rarity. It's simply not that rare, or useful of a substance.
Edited by HarveyWalbanger (08/17/11 01:21 AM)
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DieCommie

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But if and when civilization collapses, the local warlord will likely want gold to advertise his power. That is its usefulness, that is the reason to horde it.
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Silversoul
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: DieCommie]
#14933921 - 08/16/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: But if and when civilization collapses, the local warlord will likely want gold to advertise his power. That is its usefulness, that is the reason to horde it.
I think weapons would come more in handy if that were the case. Having a valuable resource without the means to defend it against a warlord doesn't sound like a very pleasant proposition.
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Yrat
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Quote:
HarveyWalbanger said: You didn't even touch the deflation part. You seem to think it'll symbolize a lot of productivity instead of making it as common as copper.
The idea it's worth something is based on an ancient perceived value and it's rarity. It's simply not that rare, or useful of a substance.
you seemed to miss my interpretation that your proposal is entirely impossible and thus your point utterly irrelevant. your tortured hypothetical scenario is completely meaningless.
call me when we gain the ability to MINE A FUCKING ASTEROID.
by then, i'm sure the market would have settled on a more efficient medium of exchange than gold anyway. i'm just saying, allow it the freedom to evolve by removing legal tender laws.
free markets always settle on the greatest efficiency. the market for media of exchange is no different.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: But if and when civilization collapses, the local warlord will likely want gold to advertise his power. That is its usefulness, that is the reason to horde it.
I think weapons would come more in handy if that were the case. Having a valuable resource without the means to defend it against a warlord doesn't sound like a very pleasant proposition.
Yea, you gotta be smart about it. But you dont have to trade it to the warlord to get value out of it, you only have to agree with others that some warlord somewhere near by would want it. Then you can trade it with your fellow non-warlords.
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HarveyWalbanger
Demiurge


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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14934161 - 08/16/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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You're rather prone to theatrics, aren't you? ...I can just picture you jumping up and down screaming "MINE A FUCKING ASTEROID" and "it's totally impossible" because it's the only thing propping your argument up (that you believe it's totally unfeasible to produce more gold); But then casually saying if it ever does happen we'll just use something else. As if you have the power to suddenly change the rules on everyone just because it may endanger the crummy store of value you want to use.
If your going to fix a problem, fucking fix it. You don't switch to a currency that is potentially worthless, and assume we'll fix it in the future.
Edited by HarveyWalbanger (08/17/11 01:22 AM)
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Quote:
HarveyWalbanger said: Your rather prone to theatrics, aren't you?
Yessss Yrat loves theatrics. Its the driving force of most of his arguments 
jk you Yrat
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Yrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
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Quote:
HarveyWalbanger said: You're rather prone to theatrics, aren't you? ...I can just picture you jumping up and down screaming "MINE A FUCKING ASTEROID" and "it's totally impossible" because it's the only thing propping your argument up (that you believe it's totally unfeasible to produce more gold); But then casually saying if it ever does happen we'll just use something else. As if you have the power to suddenly change the rules on everyone just because it may endanger the crummy store of value you want to use.
If your going to fix a problem, fucking fix it. You don't switch to a currency that is potentially worthless, and assume we'll fix it in the future.
theatrics? your argument against thousands of years of monetary history is the potential of mining a giant-golden-nugget-asteroid, and I'M prone the theatrics? 
the only thing propping up MY argument? LOL. your argument is that at some point in the future, humans might find a golden fucking asteroid, and mine that bitch... i say yeah right, and it's the only thing propping up MY argument? l-o-fucking-l.
plus, you completely failed to understand my post. good job.
it is clear that you don't understand market economics. nowhere did i say "we'll switch to something else." i said that by the time we can mine a fucking asteroid, likely thousands of years from now, the free market might have settled on something other than gold, something more efficient, as a medium of exchange anyways. do you know how markets work? (hint: the markets haven't chosen fiat due to efficiency. that's called govt mandate)
again, call me when we can mine a fucking golden asteroid. until then your argument is entirely meaningless.
jesus christ.
Edited by Yrat (08/17/11 05:32 AM)
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14937142 - 08/17/11 12:51 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yrat said: theatrics? your argument against thousands of years of monetary history is the potential of mining a giant-golden-nugget-asteroid, and I'M prone the theatrics? 
this made me lollercake
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HarveyWalbanger
Demiurge


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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
#14937568 - 08/17/11 02:27 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I didn't choose 433 eros because it's an "asteroid of solid gold". Theres nothing uncommon about what it contains at all. I chose it because it's the next sizable near earth asteroid. (the smaller ones are far easier to collect, and just as valuable, but I couldn't ballpark figures for that mass of debris if I tried)
I made no claims on how feasible it was to mine an 11 x 6 miles rock (a rock that you could walk across if one were so inclined), or whether or not it was a semi-safe currency for the time being. I'm not an economist, just a scientist. ....I just wanted to point out that its not even a fraction as rare as you think it is. And that your "you can't print more" argument is wrong. It's eveywhere besides earth and ridiculous deflation is indeed possible.
If you can't see that gold is lierally nothing more than a shiny metal used for coinage; because your soooo attached to the idea that "gold is the only thing that can save us from the evil bankers." ...I don't quite know what to tell you.
Well.. except maybe that they'll never switch back to gold currency, while mining asteroids is just a matter of time. Your idea is far more bullshit than mine is.
Edited by HarveyWalbanger (08/18/11 01:39 AM)
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The increase in the supply of gold is not sufficient to keep pace with the increase in human population. Unless we are looking to have less and less wealth/individual as time proceeds - governments would be set with the task of reassigning the value of gold so as to keep pace with "human inflation". In the end, this revaluation is just as prone to corruption as the printing presses we operate now.
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Silversoul
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes] 1
#14937887 - 08/17/11 03:29 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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What gets me is that goldbugs talk about how the gold standard is so ancient, but the kind of gold standard most of them have in mind has never actually existed. There has never been a system where there was enough gold to back every paper dollar in circulation. They had to use fractional reserve lending in order to meet the demand for money. And even when gold coins were used, that system relied on seignorage. The value stamped on the coin had to be greater than the commodity value of the metal on which it was stamped, or else people would just melt it down for the commodity value(of course, coin clipping was still a frequent problem). All of these systems involved a government mandate(or "fiat" if you will) associated with the value of gold, whether it was the convertibility of dollars to gold, or the value stamped on the coins.
--------------------
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AkhenAton
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 128
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Silversoul said: What gets me is that goldbugs talk about how the gold standard is so ancient, but the kind of gold standard most of them have in mind has never actually existed. There has never been a system where there was enough gold to back every paper dollar in circulation. They had to use fractional reserve lending in order to meet the demand for money. And even when gold coins were used, that system relied on seignorage. The value stamped on the coin had to be greater than the commodity value of the metal on which it was stamped, or else people would just melt it down for the commodity value(of course, coin clipping was still a frequent problem). All of these systems involved a government mandate(or "fiat" if you will) associated with the value of gold, whether it was the convertibility of dollars to gold, or the value stamped on the coins.
No fractional reserve lending is being utilized because there is a national debt and a tab on a double entry ledger and since all property is in receivership, you can only be granted legal tender as trust funds granted by the creditors choice that only discharge liability. You cannot have gold because gold is for those in freehold estates where there is no national debt. fractional reserve units represent stock, as since there is a national debt, your only business is receivership. Now watch as that goes over many heads. But I would love to see someone challenge me on it..
Edited by AkhenAton (08/17/11 03:37 PM)
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14937965 - 08/17/11 03:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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AkhenAton I think you utterly failed to grasp what Silversoul just said (and what he said is 100% true)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14937974 - 08/17/11 03:43 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you want to see somebody challenge it, then you have to word it such that it doesn't go over many heads. Its easy to make a dense paragraph of jargon and put the onus on others to challenge it. The hard part is doing the opposite and putting the onus on yourself to explain it.
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: DieCommie]
#14938040 - 08/17/11 03:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: If you want to see somebody challenge it, then you have to word it such that it doesn't go over many heads.
We understand it just fine, he just failed to address anything Silversoul had just said -- that Gold supplies are insufficient and thus require a government valuation regardless. A valuation that is just as susceptable to manipulation as any paper fiat currency.
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: DieCommie]
#14938049 - 08/17/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: If you want to see somebody challenge it, then you have to word it such that it doesn't go over many heads. Its easy to make a dense paragraph of jargon and put the onus on others to challenge it. The hard part is doing the opposite and putting the onus on yourself to explain it.
I am being specific if that is okay. Its law, not for me to prove as it is already policy. the jargon is called legalese and if you don't understand it you don't really know what is going on now do you?
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938056 - 08/17/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: If you want to see somebody challenge it, then you have to word it such that it doesn't go over many heads.
We understand it just fine, he just failed to address anything Silversoul had just said -- that Gold supplies are insufficient and thus require a government valuation regardless. A valuation that is just as susceptable to manipulation as any paper fiat currency.
I would have to disagree. Now are we at a challenge yet? Now when I get to putting this information together do not run away okay?
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14938060 - 08/17/11 03:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
AkhenAton said: the jargon is called legalese and if you don't understand it you don't really know what is going on now do you?
Nope, of course not. That is the point I was trying to make.
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AkhenAton
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: DieCommie]
#14938080 - 08/17/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
AkhenAton said: the jargon is called legalese and if you don't understand it you don't really know what is going on now do you?
Nope, of course not. That is the point I was trying to make.
oh are you asking me to explain?
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton] 1
#14938151 - 08/17/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
AkhenAton said: Now when I get to putting this information together do not run away okay?
Depends on what 'information' you generate. If its a hoard of more bullshit, then I'll promptly take my leave. I'm not here to entertain the ramblings of week-old members. I've seen your posts - they look like shit. For example:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14936088#14936088
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14936092#14936092
I hope you do better this time. Because otherwise you'll quickly & simply be put on nignore, to no distress on my end.
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AkhenAton
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938171 - 08/17/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
AkhenAton said: Now when I get to putting this information together do not run away okay?
Depends on what 'information' you generate. If its a hoard of more bullshit, then I'll promptly take my leave. I'm not here to entertain the ramblings of week-old members. I've seen your posts - they look like shit. For example:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14936088#14936088
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14936092#14936092
I hope you do better this time. Because otherwise you'll quickly & simply be put on nignore, to no distress on my end.
Okay, but first disprove any of the information that was posted in those two links you call shit. I want a breakdown. We will find out who is shit right now. Please do not hesitate.
I'm pretty sure I will get put on your ignore list with no reason and no proof of anything you are talking about. In addition, lol why would I care if you ignore me?
Edited by AkhenAton (08/17/11 04:41 PM)
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14938302 - 08/17/11 04:43 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Okay, but first disprove any of the information that was posted in those two links you call shit. I want a breakdown. We will find out who is shit right now. Please do not hesitate.
This is what I am talking about. Just pasting or writing a bunch of stuff and then saying 'disprove it' is ridiculous and nobody will take you seriously. They are your posts, you take the time to substantiate them or else you are, by default, disproved.
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AkhenAton
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/11
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Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: DieCommie]
#14938364 - 08/17/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Okay, but first disprove any of the information that was posted in those two links you call shit. I want a breakdown. We will find out who is shit right now. Please do not hesitate.
This is what I am talking about. Just pasting or writing a bunch of stuff and then saying 'disprove it' is ridiculous and nobody will take you seriously. They are your posts, you take the time to substantiate them or else you are, by default, disproved.
Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Okay, but first disprove any of the information that was posted in those two links you call shit. I want a breakdown. We will find out who is shit right now. Please do not hesitate.
This is what I am talking about. Just pasting or writing a bunch of stuff and then saying 'disprove it' is ridiculous and nobody will take you seriously. They are your posts, you take the time to substantiate them or else you are, by default, disproved.
Okay which part? I posted plenty already I think the problem maybe you guys are not getting it because
1. You don't know what you are doing 2. Barely know what you are talking about
Be specific, which part are you asking about?
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AkhenAton
Stranger

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: DieCommie]
#14938382 - 08/17/11 04:55 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Okay, but first disprove any of the information that was posted in those two links you call shit. I want a breakdown. We will find out who is shit right now. Please do not hesitate.
This is what I am talking about. Just pasting or writing a bunch of stuff and then saying 'disprove it' is ridiculous and nobody will take you seriously. They are your posts, you take the time to substantiate them or else you are, by default, disproved.
The guy posted two links to threads I posted on. He didn't say anything specific about it. Just "it's shit". I said in response if its shit disprove it. Now please explain to me what is wrong with that?
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14938687 - 08/17/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah. The links to your posts. Your posts were formatted terrible, were near-unreadable. DieCommie is right. YOu're a week into your stay here and already being written off by the resident MoneyMembers as rediculous.
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AkhenAton
Stranger

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938732 - 08/17/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said: Yeah. The links to your posts. Your posts were formatted terrible, were near-unreadable. DieCommie is right. YOu're a week into your stay here and already being written off by the resident MoneyMembers as rediculous.
okay can u please be more specific about what is formatted terribly? Show me? what is unreadable? Can we talk substance. What about what I am saying is false or untrue? I would be willing to challenge whoever on the facts and the facts alone? Please show me where I am wrong? This is sad really. I thought that folks here were about serious business but now its starting to become apparent that maybe that isn't the case. I am open though, please show me where I am incorrect. We can analyze each part piece by piece in depth if you would like...
Edited by AkhenAton (08/17/11 06:18 PM)
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Yrat
Hello

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938757 - 08/17/11 06:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
DieCommie said: If you want to see somebody challenge it, then you have to word it such that it doesn't go over many heads.
We understand it just fine, he just failed to address anything Silversoul had just said -- that Gold supplies are insufficient and thus require a government valuation regardless. A valuation that is just as susceptable to manipulation as any paper fiat currency.
and what i'm saying is forget about govt valuation, allow the market to determine that, as it did for thousands of years w/o various govt control. "money" is not meant to be determined by any single entity. far too much power/control in that, far too much potential for corruption, as has taken hold in our system today.
if the market settled on fiat in the absence of any govt decree, i would be perfectly OK with that, as the markets would have spoken. to do anything else is nothing but market manipulation, complete with all the problems that follow.
-------------------- "There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." -Henry David Thoreau Strike The Root
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14938821 - 08/17/11 06:39 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
AkhenAton said: okay can u please be more specific about what is formatted terribly? Show me? what is unreadable?
Are we looking at the same two posts? Do you see them? How is that confusing to you? Rediculous.
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AkhenAton
Stranger

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938837 - 08/17/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
AkhenAton said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: What gets me is that goldbugs talk about how the gold standard is so ancient, but the kind of gold standard most of them have in mind has never actually existed. There has never been a system where there was enough gold to back every paper dollar in circulation. They had to use fractional reserve lending in order to meet the demand for money. And even when gold coins were used, that system relied on seignorage. The value stamped on the coin had to be greater than the commodity value of the metal on which it was stamped, or else people would just melt it down for the commodity value(of course, coin clipping was still a frequent problem). All of these systems involved a government mandate(or "fiat" if you will) associated with the value of gold, whether it was the convertibility of dollars to gold, or the value stamped on the coins.
No fractional reserve lending is being utilized because there is a national debt and a tab on a double entry ledger and since all property is in receivership, you can only be granted legal tender as trust funds granted by the creditors choice that only discharge liability. You cannot have gold because gold is for those in freehold estates where there is no national debt. fractional reserve units represent stock, as since there is a national debt, your only business is receivership. Now watch as that goes over many heads. But I would love to see someone challenge me on it..
Quote:
Silversoul said: What gets me is that goldbugs talk about how the gold standard is so ancient, but the kind of gold standard most of them have in mind has never actually existed. There has never been a system where there was enough gold to back every paper dollar in circulation. They had to use fractional reserve lending in order to meet the demand for money. And even when gold coins were used, that system relied on seignorage. The value stamped on the coin had to be greater than the commodity value of the metal on which it was stamped, or else people would just melt it down for the commodity value(of course, coin clipping was still a frequent problem). All of these systems involved a government mandate(or "fiat" if you will) associated with the value of gold, whether it was the convertibility of dollars to gold, or the value stamped on the coins.
Quote:
meams said: AkhenAton I think you utterly failed to grasp what Silversoul just said (and what he said is 100% true)
You do realize fractional reserve lending only exists in the places that it does because of the fact that you are borrowing money on a tab and its by decree by the real creditors? When china supposedly is the creditor, they are another trustee of the central banking system because they are in receivership also. Banking has been centralized. There isn't any gold is because its been appropriated by the IMF formerly known as the reconstruction bank.
The people did not choose this system it was so by force, so please stop talking about it as if its a convenience of some kind.
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AkhenAton
Stranger

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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938856 - 08/17/11 06:46 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:
Quote:
AkhenAton said: okay can u please be more specific about what is formatted terribly? Show me? what is unreadable?
Are we looking at the same two posts? Do you see them? How is that confusing to you? Rediculous.
What posts? Oh you are talking about this:
Depends on what 'information' you generate. If its a hoard of more bullshit, then I'll promptly take my leave. I'm not here to entertain the ramblings of week-old members. I've seen your posts - they look like shit. For example:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14936088#14936088
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14936092#14936092
I hope you do better this time. Because otherwise you'll quickly & simply be put on nignore, to no distress on my end
Do you know what the question was and why I posted the links? Someone asked if the Treasury of the United States and the Federal Reserve were corporations and I said yes. The links were to dun and bradstreet and I simply copied and pasted it straight from the website, so if you find it hard to read take that up with DNB. Now that the childish game is over, can someone please prove me wrong anything of which I have said? Can we talk about substance of what is being said and not something as sad as I couldnt read it so its shit kind of thing. Ridiculous back at u
Edited by AkhenAton (08/17/11 06:47 PM)
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14938865 - 08/17/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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bye.
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938867 - 08/17/11 06:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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AkhenAton
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 128
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14938879 - 08/17/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said:

bye.
Why run? I am waiting on you? Don't want play aww...LMAO.. Good luck to ya
Edited by AkhenAton (08/17/11 06:53 PM)
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14938965 - 08/17/11 07:18 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've got well over a thousand posts in Money Matters. I'm always game to play. But I have to make sure my opponent is worth having a conversation with. I've deemed you: not.
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AkhenAton
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/11
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14939512 - 08/17/11 09:22 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said: I've got well over a thousand posts in Money Matters. I'm always game to play. But I have to make sure my opponent is worth having a conversation with. I've deemed you: not.
so u back down then. I am available and ready to make wagers...i'm just waiting on you to prove my errors, otherwise they remain true...
Edited by AkhenAton (08/17/11 09:26 PM)
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: AkhenAton]
#14939632 - 08/17/11 09:44 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yep. You win the internet. Make your acceptance speech in legalese.
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AkhenAton
Stranger

Registered: 08/09/11
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Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
#14941089 - 08/18/11 06:37 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
meams said: Yep. You win the internet. Make your acceptance speech in legalese.
Naw I would rather not win anything, unless there is a cash prize. I see your point. Can we discuss what is going on in the world now that you see I can pee farther than you? I would help you understand the legalese. I am sure you have information that would be helpful to me. Hey i want peace...
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