Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblelysergicasians
Revolutionary.
Male


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 50
It was all a lie.
    #14873987 - 08/04/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: lysergicasians]
    #14874808 - 08/04/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society



that goes for anything.  Gold only has value because people think it does :shrug:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: lysergicasians] * 1
    #14874848 - 08/04/11 11:53 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lysergicasians said:
It was all a lie.




Who lied to you?  I was never told that paper money had intrinsic wealth or was worth hoarding.  Shittie that your peeps be deceiving you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGibson33
Male


Registered: 06/11/10
Posts: 400
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
    #14874859 - 08/04/11 11:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society



that goes for anything.  Gold only has value because people think it does :shrug:



Exactly what I was thinking. Technically nothing has true value, it's all theoretically valued.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
    #14875597 - 08/05/11 05:11 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it :wink:


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat] * 1
    #14875739 - 08/05/11 06:56 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it :wink:



No, silly.  Central bankers can't print more...

-Redwood bark
-sand
-human feces
-ancient peruvian sculptures
-20" box fans
-etc...

See what I'm sayin?  Gold only has 'value' becuase back in the day it was "deemed so".  I know you're aware of this - and are probably just trying to spurn discussion.  But obviously value is collectively "assigned to", not "inherent in", anything


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineVisionary Tools
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes]
    #14875931 - 08/05/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

only theoretical worth allows it to perpetuate and facilitate in society



that goes for anything.  Gold only has value because people think it does :shrug:




I keep hearing that, but there's big differences

1) Gold has kept the same value, more or less, for the past 6000 years. Six thousand years ago, gold coin can get you a set of decent clothes and a good meal. A soverign now is worth about, what, £240,£250? Decent set of clothes, even a three piece suit, and enough change for a meal.

2) Can't magic gold out of nowhere, unlike electronic/digital currency.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: memes] * 1
    #14875997 - 08/05/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

meams said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it :wink:



No, silly.  Central bankers can't print more...

-Redwood bark
-sand
-human feces
-ancient peruvian sculptures
-20" box fans
-etc...

See what I'm sayin?  Gold only has 'value' becuase back in the day it was "deemed so".  I know you're aware of this - and are probably just trying to spurn discussion.  But obviously value is collectively "assigned to", not "inherent in", anything





yes, but no.

gold became money over thousands of years of free market activity because of scarcity, the energy input required to produce it, its physical properties allowing it to function as the perfect form of money, and the inability of the various autocratic systems of control (governments, religions, etc) throughout history to produce more of it out of thin air to steal wealth via inflation of the money supply.

because it takes labor to produce more of it, gold represents a fair medium of exchange, where energy expended can be traded for energy expended.  two individuals can decide on the proper exchange rate, i.e. how much energy does it take to produce a gram of gold versus how much energy does it take to produce a bushel of wheat?  don't forget that the energy required to produce that gram of gold also includes the thousand other prospectors/miners who expended energy but didn't find it.

i trust the free market to settle on the most perfect form of money before i'd trust some academic in an ivory tower dictating what is and isn't money, and who should or shouldn't be allowed to "make" it. 

6,000 years of history can not simply be disregarded, economic laws of supply and demand can not be suppresed.  the world will soon again wake up to realize that gold is, and actually always was, the only true form of money.  everything else is merely currency, including the credit/debt we know as dollars.  if anyone is unaware of the difference between money and currency, a little research will lead you down a very long rabbit hole of monetary history.


--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
    #14877216 - 08/05/11 02:42 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it :wink:



You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?:facepalm:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14877415 - 08/05/11 03:34 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?:facepalm:



Yah.  And back in the times he's referring to, it was near-impossible to extract any inflationary-amount.  Consequently, this piece of rock was assigned value by the masses.  Like i said:

Quote:

But obviously value is collectively "assigned to", not "inherent in", anything








...all you did (yrat) is explain WHY it was assigned value.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: zappaisgod] * 1
    #14878145 - 08/05/11 06:23 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it :wink:



You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?:facepalm:




like meams said, not at an inflationary rate, and plus, you have just expended a massive amount of time/labor/energy (plus all the other saps that didn't find any) that gives the gold its value.  the difference in energy expended to mine 1 gram vs 100 grams of gold is clear: 100x the effort/labor.  is it 100x more difficult to print a paper $100 bill versus a $1 bill? 

meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best.  WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of?  you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value. 

gold's value is inherent in that it functions as the perfect form of money discovered by human society thus far.  i'm not saying it will always be that way, as some day in the future the free market might settle on an even more efficient form of money than gold, but that form is certainly not paper money.  and the world, having long been asleep to the paper shenanigans, is finally waking up again.

from Rome to the USA, the greatest empires in the history of the world were founded on and grew upon widely circulated and standardized gold coinage.  and all of these empires collapsed once this coinage was debased and/or discontinued.  there is a good reason for this: gold is honest money.  when released from the shackles of monetary systems with the potential for debasement and inflation, human society flourishes and thrives, and great civilizations are built.  however, once removed from this life force by individuals seeking to parasitize off the actual productive classes of society, humanity withers and retreats.




Quote:

GOLD AND ECONOMIC FREEDOM

by Alan Greenspan

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense — perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire — that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.

What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. First, the medium of exchange should be durable. In a primitive society of meager wealth, wheat might be sufficiently durable to serve as a medium, since all exchanges would occur only during and immediately after the harvest, leaving no value-surplus to store. But where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity. Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible. More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable. Wheat is a luxury in underfed civilizations, but not in a prosperous society. Cigarettes ordinarily would not serve as money, but they did in post-World War II Europe where they were considered a luxury. The term "luxury good" implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron.

In the early stages of a developing money economy, several media of exchange might be used, since a wide variety of commodities would fulfill the foregoing conditions. However, one of the commodities will gradually displace all others, by being more widely acceptable. Preferences on what to hold as a store of value will shift to the most widely acceptable commodity, which, in turn, will make it still more acceptable. The shift is progressive until that commodity becomes the sole medium of exchange. The use of a single medium is highly advantageous for the same reasons that a money economy is superior to a barter economy: it makes exchanges possible on an incalculably wider scale.

Whether the single medium is gold, silver, seashells, cattle, or tobacco is optional, depending on the context and development of a given economy. In fact, all have been employed, at various times, as media of exchange. Even in the present century, two major commodities, gold and silver, have been used as international media of exchange, with gold becoming the predominant one. Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange. Since the beginning of World War I, it has been virtually the sole international standard of exchange. If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's divisions of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into, gold.

A free banking system based on gold is able to extend credit and thus to create bank notes (currency) and deposits, according to the production requirements of the economy. Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks). But since it is rarely the case that all depositors want to withdraw all their gold at the same time, the banker need keep only a fraction of his total deposits in gold as reserves. This enables the banker to loan out more than the amount of his gold deposits (which means that he holds claims to gold rather than gold as security of his deposits). But the amount of loans which he can afford to make is not arbitrary: he has to gauge it in relation to his reserves and to the status of his investments.

When banks loan money to finance productive and profitable endeavors, the loans are paid off rapidly and bank credit continues to be generally available. But when the business ventures financed by bank credit are less profitable and slow to pay off, bankers soon find that their loans outstanding are excessive relative to their gold reserves, and they begin to curtail new lending, usually by charging higher interest rates. This tends to restrict the financing of new ventures and requires the existing borrowers to improve their profitability before they can obtain credit for further expansion. Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth. When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade. Even though the units of exchange (the dollar, the pound, the franc, etc.) differ from country to country, when all are defined in terms of gold the economies of the different countries act as one — so long as there are no restraints on trade or on the movement of capital. Credit, interest rates, and prices tend to follow similar patterns in all countries. For example, if banks in one country extend credit too liberally, interest rates in that country will tend to fall, inducing depositors to shift their gold to higher-interest paying banks in other countries. This will immediately cause a shortage of bank reserves in the "easy money" country, inducing tighter credit standards and a return to competitively higher interest rates again.

A fully free banking system and fully consistent gold standard have not as yet been achieved. But prior to World War I, the banking system in the United States (and in most of the world) was based on gold and even though governments intervened occasionally, banking was more free than controlled. Periodically, as a result of overly rapid credit expansion, banks became loaned up to the limit of their gold reserves, interest rates rose sharply, new credit was cut off, and the economy went into a sharp, but short-lived recession. (Compared with the depressions of 1920 and 1932, the pre-World War I business declines were mild indeed.) It was limited gold reserves that stopped the unbalanced expansions of business activity, before they could develop into the post-World War I type of disaster. The readjustment periods were short and the economies quickly reestablished a sound basis to resume expansion.

But the process of cure was misdiagnosed as the disease: if shortage of bank reserves was causing a business decline — argued economic interventionists — why not find a way of supplying increased reserves to the banks so they never need be short! If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely — it was claimed — there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks ("paper reserves") could serve as legal tender to pay depositors.

When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). The reasoning of the authorities involved was as follows: if the Federal Reserve pumped excessive paper reserves into American banks, interest rates in the United States would fall to a level comparable with those in Great Britain; this would act to stop Britain's gold loss and avoid the political embarrassment of having to raise interest rates. The "Fed" succeeded; it stopped the gold loss, but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world, in the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market, triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's.

With a logic reminiscent of a generation earlier, statists argued that the gold standard was largely to blame for the credit debacle which led to the Great Depression. If the gold standard had not existed, they argued, Britain's abandonment of gold payments in 1931 would not have caused the failure of banks all over the world. (The irony was that since 1913, we had been, not on a gold standard, but on what may be termed "a mixed gold standard"; yet it is gold that took the blame.) But the opposition to the gold standard in any form — from a growing number of welfare-state advocates — was prompted by a much subtler insight: the realization that the gold standard is incompatible with chronic deficit spending (the hallmark of the welfare state). Stripped of its academic jargon, the welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes. A substantial part of the confiscation is effected by taxation. But the welfare statists were quick to recognize that if they wished to retain political power, the amount of taxation had to be limited and they had to resort to programs of massive deficit spending, i.e., they had to borrow money, by issuing government bonds, to finance welfare expenditures on a large scale.

Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset. But government bonds are not backed by tangible wealth, only by the government's promise to pay out of future tax revenues, and cannot easily be absorbed by the financial markets. A large volume of new government bonds can be sold to the public only at progressively higher interest rates. Thus, government deficit spending under a gold standard is severely limited. The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit. They have created paper reserves in the form of government bonds which — through a complex series of steps — the banks accept in place of tangible assets and treat as if they were an actual deposit, i.e., as the equivalent of what was formerly a deposit of gold. The holder of a government bond or of a bank deposit created by paper reserves believes that he has a valid claim on a real asset. But the fact is that there are now more claims outstanding than real assets. The law of supply and demand is not to be conned. As the supply of money (of claims) increases relative to the supply of tangible assets in the economy, prices must eventually rise. Thus the earnings saved by the productive members of the society lose value in terms of goods. When the economy's books are finally balanced, one finds that this loss in value represents the goods purchased by the government for welfare or other purposes with the money proceeds of the government bonds financed by bank credit expansion.

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.





there are many out there who believe greenspan charged the US into its unsustainable credit-fueled growth bubble while at the wheel of the FED knowing full well that the end result would be a collapse of the fiat credit-based dollar and a likely return to the gold standard.  time will hold the answer. 

Quote:

Credit expansion can bring about a temporary boom. But such a fictitious prosperity must end in a general depression of trade, a slump.  There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency involved.    ~Ludwig von Mises







Quote:

Human Freedom Rests on Gold Redeemable Money

by Hon. Howard Buffett
U.S. Congressman from Nebraska
The Commercial and Financial Chronicle 5/6/48

 
 

Is there a connection between Human Freedom and A Gold Redeemable Money? At first glance it would seem that money belongs to the world of economics and human freedom to the political sphere.

But when you recall that one of the first moves by Lenin, Mussolini and Hitler was to outlaw individual ownership of gold, you begin to sense that there may be some connection between money, redeemable in gold, and the rare prize known as human liberty.

Also, when you find that Lenin declared and demonstrated that a sure way to overturn the existing social order and bring about communism was by printing press paper money, then again you are impressed with the possibility of a relationship between a gold-backed money and human freedom.

In that case then certainly you and I as Americans should know the connection. We must find it even if money is a difficult and tricky subject. I suppose that if most people were asked for their views on money the almost universal answer would be that they didn't have enough of it.

In a free country the monetary unit rests upon a fixed foundation of gold or gold and silver independent of the ruling politicians. Our dollar was that kind of money before 1933. Under that system paper currency is redeemable for a certain weight of gold, at the free option and choice of the holder of paper money.

Redemption Right Insures Stability

That redemption right gives money a large degree of stability. The owner of such gold redeemable currency has economic independence. He can move around either within or without his country because his money holdings have accepted value anywhere.

For example, I hold here what is called a $20 gold piece. Before 1933, if you possessed paper money you could exchange it at your option for gold coin. This gold coin had a recognizable and definite value all over the world. It does so today. In most countries of the world this gold piece, if you have enough of them, will give you much independence. But today the ownership of such gold pieces as money in this country, Russia, and all divers other places is outlawed.

The subject of a Hitler or a Stalin is a serf by the mere fact that his money can be called in and depreciated at the whim of his rulers. That actually happened in Russia a few months ago, when the Russian people, holding cash, had to turn it in – 10 old rubles and receive back one new ruble.

I hold here a small packet of this second kind of money – printing press paper money – technically known as fiat money because its value is arbitrarily fixed by rulers or statute. The amount of this money in numerals is very large. This little packet amounts to CNC $680,000. It cost me $5 at regular exchange rates. I understand I got clipped on the deal. I could have gotten $2½ million if I had purchased in the black market. But you can readily see that this Chinese money, which is a fine grade of paper money, gives the individual who owns it no independence, because it has no redemptive value.

Under such conditions the individual citizen is deprived of freedom of movement. He is prevented from laying away purchasing power for the future. He becomes dependent upon the goodwill of the politicians for his daily bread. Unless he lives on land that will sustain him, freedom for him does not exist.

You have heard a lot of oratory on inflation from politicians in both parties. Actually that oratory and the inflation maneuvering around here are mostly sly efforts designed to lay the blame on the other party's doorstep. All our politicians regularly announce their intention to stop inflation. I believe I can show that until they move to restore your right to own gold that talk is hogwash.

Paper Systems End in Collapse

But first let me clear away a bit of underbrush. I will not take time to review the history of paper money experiments. So far as I can discover, paper money systems have always wound up with collapse and economic chaos.

Here somebody might like to interrupt and ask if we are not now on the gold standard. That is true, internationally, but not domestically. Even though there is a lot of gold buried down at Fort Knox, that gold is not subject to demand by American citizens. It could all be shipped out of this country without the people having any chance to prevent it. That is not probable in the near future, for a small trickle of gold is still coming in. But it can happen in the future. This gold is temporarily and theoretically partial security for our paper currency. But in reality it is not.

Also, currently, we are enjoying a large surplus in tax revenues, but this happy condition is only a phenomenon of postwar inflation and our global WPA. It cannot be relied upon as an accurate gauge of our financial condition. So we should disregard the current flush treasury in considering this problem.

From 1930-1946 your government went into the red every year and the debt steadily mounted. Various plans have been proposed to reverse this spiral of debt. One is that a fixed amount of tax revenue each year would go for debt reduction. Another is that Congress be prohibited by statute from appropriating more than anticipated revenues in peacetime. Still another is that 10% of the taxes be set aside each year for debt reduction.

All of these proposals look good. But they are unrealistic under our paper money system. They will not stand against postwar spending pressures. The accuracy of this conclusion has already been demonstrated.

The Budget and Paper Money

Under the streamlining Act passed by Congress in 1946, the Senate and the House were required to fix a maximum budget each year. In 1947 the Senate and the House could not reach an agreement on this maximum budget so that the law was ignored.

On March 4 this year the House and Senate agreed on a budget of $37½ billion. Appropriations already passed or on the docket will most certainly take expenditures past the $40 billion mark. The statute providing for a maximum budget has fallen by the wayside even in the first two years it has been operating and in a period of prosperity.

There is only one way that these spending pressures can be halted, and that is to restore the final decision on public spending to the producers of the nation. The producers of wealth – taxpayers – must regain their right to obtain gold in exchange for the fruits of their labor. This restoration would give the people the final say-so on governmental spending, and would enable wealth producers to control the issuance of paper money and bonds.

I do not ask you to accept this contention outright. But if you look at the political facts of life, I think you will agree that this action is the only genuine cure.

There is a parallel between business and politics which quickly illustrates the weakness in political control of money.

Each of you is in business to make profits. If your firm does not make profits, it goes out of business. If I were to bring a product to you and say, this item is splendid for your customers, but you would have to sell it without profit, or even at a loss that would put you out of business. – well, I would get thrown out of your office, perhaps politely, but certainly quickly. Your business must have profits.

In politics votes have a similar vital importance to an elected official. That situation is not ideal, but it exists, probably because generally no one gives up power willingly.

Perhaps you are right now saying to yourself: "That's just What I have always thought. The politicians are thinking of votes when they ought to think about the future of the country. What we need is a Congress with some 'guts.' If we elected a Congress with intestinal fortitude, it would stop the spending all right!"

I went to Washington with exactly that hope and belief. But I have had to discard it as unrealistic. Why?

Because an economy Congressman under our printing-press money system is in the position of a fireman running into a burning building with a hose that is not connected with the water plug. His courage may be commendable, but he is not hooked up right at the other end of the line. So it is now with a Congressman working for economy. There is no sustained hookup with the taxpayers to give him strength.

When the people's right to restrain public spending by demanding gold coin was taken from them, the automatic flow of strength from the grass-roots to enforce economy in Washington was disconnected. I'll come back to this later.

In January you heard the President's message to Congress. or at least you heard about it. It made Harry Hopkins, in memory, look like Old Scrooge himself. Truman's State of the Union message was "pie-in-the-sky" for everybody except business. These promises were to be expected under our paper currency system. Why? Because his continuance in office depends upon pleasing a majority of the pressure groups.

Before you judge him too harshly for that performance, let us speculate on his thinking. Certainly he can persuade himself that the Republicans would do the same thing if they were In power. Already he has characterized our talk of economy as "just conversation." To date we have been proving him right. Neither the President nor the Republican Congress is under real compulsion to cut Federal spending. And so neither one does so, and the people are largely helpless.

But it was not always this way.

Before 1933 the people themselves had an effective way to demand economy. Before 1933, whenever the people became disturbed over Federal spending, they could go to the banks, redeem their paper currency in gold, and wait for common sense to return to Washington.

Raids on Treasury

That happened on various occasions and conditions sometimes became strained, but nothing occurred like the ultimate consequences of paper money inflation. Today Congress is constantly besieged by minority groups seeking benefits from the public treasury. Often these groups. control enough votes in many Congressional districts to change the outcome of elections. And so Congressmen find it difficult to persuade themselves not to give in to pressure groups. With no bad immediate consequence it becomes expedient to accede to a spending demand. The Treasury is seemingly inexhaustible. Besides the unorganized taxpayers back home may not notice this particular expenditure – and so it goes.

Let's take a quick look at just the payroll pressure elements. On June 30, 1932, there were 2,196,151 people receiving regular monthly checks from the Federal Treasury. On June 30, 1947, this number had risen to the fantastic total of 14,416,393 persons. This 14½ million figure does not include about 2 million receiving either unemployment benefits of soil conservation checks. However, It includes about 2 million GI's getting schooling or on-the-job-training. Excluding them, the total is about l2½ million or 500% more than in 1932. If each beneficiary accounted for four votes (and only half exhibited this payroll allegiance response) this group would account for 25 million votes, almost by itself enough votes to win any national election.

Besides these direct payroll voters, there are a large number of State, county and local employees whose compensation in part comes from Federal subsidies and grants-in-aid.

Then there are many other kinds of pressure groups. There are businesses that are being enriched by national defense spending and foreign handouts. These firms, because of the money they can spend on propaganda, may be the most dangerous of all.

If the Marshall Plan meant $100 million worth of profitable business for your firm, wouldn't you Invest a few thousands or so to successfully propagandize for the Marshall Plan? And if you were a foreign government, getting billions, perhaps you could persuade your prospective suppliers here to lend a hand in putting that deal through Congress.

Taxpayer the Forgotten Man

Far away from Congress is the real forgotten man, the taxpayer who foots the bill. He is in a different spot from the tax-eater or the business that makes millions from spending schemes. He cannot afford to spend his time trying to oppose Federal expenditures. He has to earn his own living and carry the burden of taxes as well.

But for most beneficiaries a Federal paycheck soon becomes vital in his life. He usually will spend his full energies if necessary to hang onto this income. The taxpayer is completely outmatched in such an unequal contest. Always heretofore he possessed an equalizer. If government finances weren't run according to his idea of soundness he had an individual right to protect himself by obtaining gold.

With a restoration of the gold standard, Congress would have to again resist handouts. That would work this way. If Congress seemed receptive to reckless spending schemes, depositors' demands over the country for gold would soon become serious. That alarm in turn would quickly be reflected in the halls of Congress. The legislators would learn from the banks back home and from the Treasury officials that confidence in the Treasury was endangered.

Congress would be forced to confront spending demands with firmness. The gold standard acted as a silent watchdog to prevent unlimited public spending. I have only briefly outlined the inability of Congress to resist spending pressures during periods of prosperity. What Congress would do when a depression comes is a question I leave to your imagination.

I have not time to portray the end of the road of all paper money experiments.

It is worse than just the high prices that you have heard about. Monetary chaos was followed in Germany by a Hitler; in Russia by all-out Bolshevism; and in other nations by more or less tyranny. It can take a nation to communism without external influences. Suppose the frugal savings of the humble people of America continue to deteriorate in the next 10 years as they have in the past 10 years? Some day the people will almost certainly flock to "a man on horseback" who says he will stop inflation by price-fixing, wage-fixing, and rationing. When currency loses its exchange value the processes of production and distribution are demoralized.

For example, we still have rent-fixing and rental housing remains a desperate situation.

For a long time shrewd people have been quietly hoarding tangibles in one way or another. Eventually, this individual movement into tangibles will become a general stampede unless corrective action comes soon.

Is Time Propitious

Most opponents of free coinage of gold admit that that restoration is essential, but claim the time is not propitious. Some argue that there would be a scramble for gold and our enormous gold reserves would soon be exhausted.

Actually this argument simply points up the case. If there is so little confidence in our currency that restoration of gold coin would cause our gold stocks to disappear, then we must act promptly.

The danger was recently highlighted by Mr. Allan Sproul, President of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, who said:

"Without our support (the Federal Reserve System), under present conditions, almost any sale of government bonds, undertaken for whatever purpose, laudable or otherwise, would be likely to find an almost bottomless market on the first day support was withdrawn."

Our finances will never be brought into order until Congress is compelled to do so. Making our money redeemable in gold will create this compulsion. The paper money disease has been a pleasant habit thus far and will not he dropped voluntarily any more than a dope user will without a struggle give up narcotics. But in each case the end of the road is not a desirable prospect.

I can find no evidence to support a hope that our fiat paper money venture will fare better ultimately than such experiments in other lands. Because of our economic strength the paper money disease here may take many years to run its course.

But we can be approaching the critical stage. When that day arrives, our political rulers will probably find that foreign war and ruthless regimentation is the cunning alternative to domestic strife. That was the way out for the paper-money economy of Hitler and others. In these remarks I have only touched the high points of this problem. I hope that I have given you enough information to challenge you to make a serious study of it.

I warn you that politicians of both parties will oppose the restoration of gold, although they may outwardly seemingly favor it. Also those elements here and abroad who are getting rich from the continued American inflation will oppose a return to sound money. You must be prepared to meet their opposition intelligently and vigorously. They have had 15 years of unbroken victory.

But, unless you are willing to surrender your children and your country to galloping inflation, war and slavery, then this cause demands your support. For if human liberty is to survive in America, we must win the battle to restore honest money.

There is no more important challenge facing us than this issue – the restoration of your freedom to secure gold in exchange for the fruits of your labors.




--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
    #14881646 - 08/06/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it :wink:



You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?:facepalm:




like meams said, not at an inflationary rate, and plus, you have just expended a massive amount of time/labor/energy (plus all the other saps that didn't find any) that gives the gold its value.  the difference in energy expended to mine 1 gram vs 100 grams of gold is clear: 100x the effort/labor.  is it 100x more difficult to print a paper $100 bill versus a $1 bill?




1.  Inflation existed with the gold standard.  Or didn't you know that?
2.  Gold mining is not a one gram costs the same as another gram to mine.  If gold is at $32 it isn't worth digging for.  If it is at $1600 there are much lower yield mines that become profitable.  In your theoretical mishmash do you know a single fucking thing about gold mining?  It isn't the cost of mining it that gives it its value.  It is its value that decides how much you will spend to mine it.
3.  Mali, a complete shithole, was #8 in 2006 for gold production.  Peru was #5, Ghana #10.  These countries can print money under your scheme.  Japan is 29, India 51.  Germany and England don't appear at all on the list
Quote:



meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best.  WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of?  you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.




Wampun lasted for a long time too.  So what?  The reason why gold was used as a currency in the stone age you can't advance beyond is that it didn't rust.  That is no longer a relevant feature.  We have banks.  Almost all financial transactions are in bytes.  They don't rust either.  And yes, a few guys did get in a room and assign gold a value.  Sometimes they changed it.
Quote:

 

gold's value is inherent in that it functions as the perfect form of money discovered by human society thus far.  i'm not saying it will always be that way, as some day in the future the free market might settle on an even more efficient form of money than gold, but that form is certainly not paper money.  and the world, having long been asleep to the paper shenanigans, is finally waking up again.




You have to be an idiot to think that gold is a convenient form of money.  It is a pain in the ass to schlep that heavy shit around.
Quote:



from Rome to the USA, the greatest empires in the history of the world were founded on and grew upon widely circulated and standardized gold coinage.  and all of these empires collapsed once this coinage was debased and/or discontinued.  there is a good reason for this: gold is honest money.  when released from the shackles of monetary systems with the potential for debasement and inflation, human society flourishes and thrives, and great civilizations are built.  however, once removed from this life force by individuals seeking to parasitize off the actual productive classes of society, humanity withers and retreats.




Did the Roman Empire collapse because it stopped using gold for trade?

Why not diamonds?  Why not a whole bunch of other nonsense?  Titanium, platinum, foreskins?

Are you so fucking ignorant that you don't realize there were "parasites" even with the gold standard?  Good fucking zappa the raw trembling nonsense from the gold nuts makes my hair hurt.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineYrat
Hello

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 2,312
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14882895 - 08/06/11 09:06 PM (12 years, 5 months ago)

zappa, i will never understand why you don't believe in honest money.  in your support for govt sponsored paper "money," you are no different from the liberal statists/socialists that you claim to despise.  there are some serious misunderstandings evident in your post here.  i suggest you read the two essays i quoted in the previous post.  they will answer the questions you have raised (it is clear you did not read them) and much more.  but i will answer your questions just for the sake of argument here as well...

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Yrat said:
gold has value because central bankers can't print more of it :wink:



You can dig it out of the ground, though, can't you?:facepalm:




like meams said, not at an inflationary rate, and plus, you have just expended a massive amount of time/labor/energy (plus all the other saps that didn't find any) that gives the gold its value.  the difference in energy expended to mine 1 gram vs 100 grams of gold is clear: 100x the effort/labor.  is it 100x more difficult to print a paper $100 bill versus a $1 bill?




1.  Inflation existed with the gold standard.  Or didn't you know that?




not at a rate that seriously inflates the money supply.  that is the whole point of the comment, and meams', that you seem to conveniently miss.

Quote:


2.  Gold mining is not a one gram costs the same as another gram to mine.  If gold is at $32 it isn't worth digging for.  If it is at $1600 there are much lower yield mines that become profitable.  In your theoretical mishmash do you know a single fucking thing about gold mining?  It isn't the cost of mining it that gives it its value.  It is its value that decides how much you will spend to mine it.




you are still pricing gold in terms of dollars, which is entirely irrelevant to this conversation.  you need to shift your frame of thought towards energy/labor expended, not some arbitrary paper value which you are having trouble looking past.

Quote:


3.  Mali, a complete shithole, was #8 in 2006 for gold production.  Peru was #5, Ghana #10.  These countries can print money under your scheme.  Japan is 29, India 51.  Germany and England don't appear at all on the list




again, not "printing" anything if you are expending a tangible amount of energy to produce it.  think of gold as a measuring stick for expended energy.  i can pay for your expended energy with my expended energy, an entirely fair trade when we come to a voluntary price agreement and make a transaction.


Quote:

Quote:


meams, the way you try to focus on the word assign is disingenuous at best.  WHO exactly was responsible for this assignment that you speak of?  you make it sound like a few people gathered round one fine day and decided to use gold as money from then on out, when in reality it was the sum of countless voluntary transactions over thousands of generations across thousands of years that "assigned" gold value.




Wampun lasted for a long time too.  So what?  The reason why gold was used as a currency in the stone age you can't advance beyond is that it didn't rust.  That is no longer a relevant feature.  We have banks.  Almost all financial transactions are in bytes.  They don't rust either.  And yes, a few guys did get in a room and assign gold a value.  Sometimes they changed it.




wampum is an interesting case, and i am working on an idea that, like gold, wampum had value because it took a shit ton of time and energy to produce.  thus, again, it was successful money because it allowed native american society to measure energy/labor against energy/labor.  your trust in banks and their government-provided monopoly to generate "wealth" out of thin air undermines your credibility and shows you for the statist that you truly are.

Quote:

 
Quote:

 
gold's value is inherent in that it functions as the perfect form of money discovered by human society thus far.  i'm not saying it will always be that way, as some day in the future the free market might settle on an even more efficient form of money than gold, but that form is certainly not paper money.  and the world, having long been asleep to the paper shenanigans, is finally waking up again.




You have to be an idiot to think that gold is a convenient form of money.  It is a pain in the ass to schlep that heavy shit around.




the most childish argument you could have produced, on par with "you can't eat gold" (hint: you can't eat paper dollars either).  that is why you have gold redeemable, or "gold-backed," paper currency.  you know... king of like how the dollar started out?  you would be an idiot to think that anyone would want to carry around actual physical gold.  instead, you carry around paper representation of gold, which you can then take to a bank to exchange at the set rate if you require the metal.  c'mon zappa, now you're just being disingenuous. 

Quote:



Quote:


from Rome to the USA, the greatest empires in the history of the world were founded on and grew upon widely circulated and standardized gold coinage.  and all of these empires collapsed once this coinage was debased and/or discontinued.  there is a good reason for this: gold is honest money.  when released from the shackles of monetary systems with the potential for debasement and inflation, human society flourishes and thrives, and great civilizations are built.  however, once removed from this life force by individuals seeking to parasitize off the actual productive classes of society, humanity withers and retreats.




Did the Roman Empire collapse because it stopped using gold for trade?




actually yes, gold and silver.  go research the history of the silver denarius before you make more of a fool out of yourself.  if you do, you might be surprised at the parallel between gold/silver currency during the decline of Rome, and gold/silver used in US currency in the last 50 years.  why do you think silver coinage was discontinued in '64?  it's all about debasement of the money supply zappa, and you are convincing me more and more than you simply can not grasp this concept.
Quote:


Why not diamonds?  Why not a whole bunch of other nonsense?  Titanium, platinum, foreskins?




if you actually read my quoted essays in the post above, you will easily find several answers to this ridiculous question.

Quote:


Are you so fucking ignorant that you don't realize there were "parasites" even with the gold standard?  Good fucking zappa the raw trembling nonsense from the gold nuts makes my hair hurt.




gold stands in the way of the welfare state and prevents the deficit spending that supports it.  seriously, read those essays.  you might actually see the light.  by supporting a paper regime you are propping up the welfare state that you claim to oppose.  i seriously can not understand why you are unable to see the glaring hypocrisy in your own philosophies. 

i am not saying take the money supply back to a gold standard.  what i am saying is remove legal tender laws, thus removing the state-endorsed monopoly on what can and can't be used as money, and let the free market decide what to use as a medium of exchange.  yes, it would likely go back to gold and silver for a time, but there is nothing preventing humanity from settling on a different medium if it is indeed more efficient.

if paper money is indeed a more efficient medium of exchange, why does it need the state to uphold its use through legal tender laws?  riddle me that one, oh genius-zappa.


Edited by Yrat (08/07/11 10:38 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePatrickKn
I'm a teapot

Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,561
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: Yrat]
    #14883802 - 08/07/11 01:26 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

I used to believe in pretty much the same shit about gold as you did. It's all bullshit. Zappa knows exactly what he is talking about. The gold hype is a delusion. It has no solid value beyond what we give it. In fact, nothing has 'real' value (all value is is an opinion). It's all ridiculous hype that people who buy and trade in gold will tell you.

The roman empire didn't thrive because of gold. Most of the people under the roman flag had no access to the roman currency. They mostly traded like all other societies at the time. Instead of looking at gold as the reason a society thrives, I see a society thriving as a means to waste money on gold.

Like zappa said in his post, the countries with the most gold aren't the richest in the world. Their gold is bought up by those with actual money.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblelysergicasians
Revolutionary.
Male


Registered: 01/16/11
Posts: 50
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #14884008 - 08/07/11 03:01 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Did the Native Americans want to trade their land for gold? Look at our history and you will understand.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePatrickKn
I'm a teapot

Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,561
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: lysergicasians]
    #14884030 - 08/07/11 03:12 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Elaborate a bit. I'm not following.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #14884690 - 08/07/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Big waste of tree's imo.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleteknix
𓂀⟁𓅢𓍝𓅃𓊰𓉡 𓁼𓆗⨻
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: PatrickKn]
    #14884701 - 08/07/11 09:20 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetreewood69
person


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 606
Loc: omicron persei 8
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: teknix]
    #14884776 - 08/07/11 09:45 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

good weed is best investment.  It will always have value


--------------------
I have enough cents to know I dont have any sense


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDrGreenThumb865
Dude, who's got the lighter?
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 1,967
Loc: Tennessee Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
Re: It was all a lie. [Re: treewood69]
    #14884787 - 08/07/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

treewood69 said:
good weed is best investment.  It will always have value



:whathesaid: :burnone:


--------------------
:mushdance:




Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Concentrates   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Does this look legit? The24HourMC 1,559 1 03/01/10 02:43 PM
by geokills
* STOCKS - An Intro Tutorial & Ongoing Discussion
( 1 2 3 4 ... 289 290 )
geokillsA 296,580 5,796 01/22/24 08:56 PM
by geokills

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: geokills, automan
8,565 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 2 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 14 queries.