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Offlineshroom_bee
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Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 291
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Fuzzy sides, a different perspective
    #14873280 - 08/04/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, let's get this out of the way.

I am aware the common wisdom is fuzzy sides are caused by too much CO2.

At least in this thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13750044

And it makes sense.  But are we sure?

The reasoning seems to be as follows:

Fuzzy growth is mycellium, CO2 favors mycellium not fruiting, therefor, too much CO2.

But let's take another look.

As a nubie, my FOAF has spent the last 3 months moving through trays.  He had to go on vacation for a bit, and he was ill prepared.  For 4 days the closet was dark.  It was NOT ill vented, there was a continuous stream of air, and all trays were in shotgun tubs that had good airflow. 

He had a minion keep the vaporizers full, but other than that, no attention.

He noticed a very specific pattern emerge.  But it was species dependent, so he knows that it may or may not replicate for others.

In certain species (about 2/3s of the dozen he was running), TOTAL darkness caused the following:

#1) No new pin starts (no shit sherlock, I just had to put it in).

#2) If a pin was under 1/2 inch, it would stagnate and die.

#3) If a pin was over 1/2 inch, it would SHOOT up.  It would climb like a motherfucker.  It was go absolutely crazy growing the the direction of the last light it saw. In about 50% of the cases, he saw at least a 4 times height increase over his average for the given species.

#4) In most cases, there was no development past globe until a few days after the light returned.

Back to that extra growth.  It was always fuzzy.  It was "different".  And then he thought for a bit.

You are supposed to pick "early".  No torn veil, no spore drop.  There is no point in letting a mushroom grow because they don't.  They don't grow.  They inflate.  They are formed, all the magic is in them from the start. Or so I've read.

Mushrooms believe in destiny.  They have a size they can achieve by default, they form, they inflate.  At the moment they form they are prepared for a certain size.  They might grow 1/2 inch, they might grow a foot, we have NO way of knowing.  But the mushroom does, and prepares accordingly.

The reason not to pick pins is you have NO idea what the possible destined size is, so you have next to no way of determining dosage.  Also they fly up and poke you in the eye when drying over a fan.

In certain situations the mushroom grows past what it was genetically programmed to do.  I KNOW total darkness will trigger this in some species.  It will delay final development until it finds light.

So the question is, does this additional growth contain the desired core chemicals, and is it over and above the initial production for the fully formed pin? And is the fuzz we see on some shrooms in some situations because the mushroom is growing beyond initial programmed size?

My FOAF had a few used cakes.  Ugly and almost dead.  3 different species.  They had a few live pins on them, but nothing worth keeping. He threw them in a styrofoam cooler, gave it a squirt of water, and forgot about it.

A week later he opened it up.  At least a dozen strong long mushrooms, between 6 and 8 inches high (or long, some walked along the bottom it seems). These cakes were lucky to produce 1/2 that size, and they were rare.  None had opened.  All had the obvious differentiation of original growth (under the cap) and extended emergency growth (no vertical pattern, fuzzy growth instead).

So, now we wait.  He'll check a few more times and harvest if/when they start to open.  Or until he gets impatient.  He'll cut and isolate the fuzzy sections and dose as usual.  If they produce the standard effect, it means new growth is additional magic, and to be encouraged.  If you could quadruple your harvest in a week of pure darkness, would you?

Anybody else want to attempt to replicate?

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InvisibleVaeVictum
Sativa Cyborg


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 4,397
Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: shroom_bee]
    #14873311 - 08/04/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:dudewtf:

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Offlinetripdawg420
low life with no life
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Registered: 02/02/09
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Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: VaeVictum]
    #14873316 - 08/04/11 05:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:zombie3:


--------------------
HUSTLER
How U Survive This Life Everyday Resourcefully
epic GT mono tub
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17277772

wbs tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11525679
coir tek
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11917410
results :thumbup:

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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
Reshitivest
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/13/10
Posts: 8,118
Loc: HTTP 404 Not Found
Trusted Cultivator
Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: tripdawg420]
    #14873459 - 08/04/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Soooo....your idea is to add an extended period of darkness, after pinning. With the goal being to create long stems and hence more bulk?

Do I read this correctly?

If you want to prove this idea, you're going to need to do several grows. All of the grows will need to be done with isolates or clones. Also make sure to include a few control groups. Your spawn/substrate will also need to be identical for each run.

Be sure to include:
Temperatures
Light Cycles (for pinning)
Any info on your FAE set up.


Your control group will also need to have the same environmental conditions except for the extended period of darkness. Im sure there are some other things Im missing, but I think that probably covers most of the bases.

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InvisibleVaeVictum
Sativa Cyborg


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 4,397
Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #14873502 - 08/04/11 05:54 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:whathesaid:

I'm assuming you were using MS, if so this alone could be the reason behind all the differences along with a bunch of other things.

If you decide to go experimental follow his advice above and keep us posted!

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InvisibleHorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
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Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Myco-Tek.org Flag
Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: VaeVictum]
    #14873536 - 08/04/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Does this belong in "cultivation"???  What species are we talking about? Oyster? Cubensis? Shaggy mane?...  Yes; different species have different requirements...  You mentioned that there were three species; but never mentioned what they were :uhoh:


--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...

NOTE:  Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone :frown:

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Offlineshroom_bee
Stranger
Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 291
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: VaeVictum]
    #14875516 - 08/05/11 03:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry, not really sure.

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Offlineozzysmygod
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: shroom_bee]
    #14875571 - 08/05/11 04:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_bee said:
Sorry, not really sure.





LOL

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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: ozzysmygod]
    #14875609 - 08/05/11 05:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Im willing to bet he's talking about cubensis and meant to say different strains (commercially named), rather than species.

A few things...

Pins don't have a pre-determined size. They have a pre-determined optimal size perhaps. But ultimately environmental parameters prior to and during fruiting have a huge affect on the size and shape of the fruitbody.

Psilocybin production is thought to be highest when the pins are small and then taper off (but continue) until they reach their peak when the veil breaks, the neck elongates, and spores begin to launch. It is believed that at that point production ceases, even tho the fruitbody will continue to put on some mass. There's no solid research to confirm this. It's just a popular belief.

Lastly, I don't understand what conclusions you drew from the experience you describe. What experiment are you proposing and what is your hypothesis?


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

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Offlineshroom_bee
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Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 291
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #14875647 - 08/05/11 05:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> Soooo....your idea is to add an extended period of darkness,
> after pinning. With the goal being to create long stems
> and hence more bulk?
> Do I read this correctly?

Exactly.

Not just long.  The new growth has additional internal bulk
that the original does not.  It will not split and does not
have the vertical striations. It is not based on an inflated
pin (tiny area), it is based on the mycellium pushing the
mushroom out as far as it can go to reach the last seen light,
which means incremental dense growth.

It also bruises blue MUCH more strongly, which may be because
it is more fragile (fuzzy exterior crushes) or it may be stronger.

He doesn't 't care about weight. His goal is to produce
a lifetime supply, assuming monthly usage for 2 people.

He'd rather have less to store in the freezer, and he has yet to
find a tek that he trusts to extract and make smaller the core
ingredients, at least that he can find the base chemicals
for.  He really doesn't want to google for chloroform suppliers,
it might mean a murder charge some day.

On the other hand, since immature means wildly varying strength,
he decided to let each grow as large as possible to allow
max distribution of the magic.  He doesn't mind eating more,
and doesn't give a rat's ass if some buddy whines that the
shrooms are "weak".  Let them eat more in 90 minutes. There
is no cost involved, and he's NOT selling them.

He has a bag full of early pins that he picked before he came to
this conclusion.  If a buddy really doean't like the "weak" mature
ones, he can pick from this. But all bets are off on dosage.

So he's got 3 shelves in a closet, 18"x24" each, fully enclosed,
with 6500 degree 9 watt CFLs on each shelf. The shelves
are plastic with lots of airflow through them. Several humidifiers
in, on interval timers, with calibrated cigar store humidity
guages. 95-98% is the norm on the top 2 shelves, with about 90%
the norm on the bottom shelf.  Actually, there is a true bottom shelf
(floor level) that is used for airflow intake and a fan to
push it up the rest of the way.

Each shelf is accessible via zippered front door so any impact on the
environment due to him working in there is usually limited.  He
does a water spray on every close, and can trigger the ultrasonic
humidifier cycle at will.

He finds setting up for shrooms is FAR easier than growing the
green stuff.  Almost no heat, no electicity, and no airflow
requirements, at least as compared to his previous experience.
And he had a lot of leftover equipment from the green grow.

He left the lights inside for brighter / better pinning, but that
means he needs to compensate with daily icepack swapping, at
least if he wants to keep it under 75 degrees. It doesn't
bother him. He's got a freezer that is 30 below (F), and keeps
large tupperware containers of water/ice for swapouts.  They
get placed on the true bottom and the air blows past them on
the way in.

There is a contant flow of outside air pumped in via 2 intake fans
pushing through a single 4 inch air tube.  1 is always on, and
the 2nd is triggered at will, usually for 10 to 20 minutes, 5 - 10
times a day. When the second is turned on, you can feel the air push
hard throughout the enclosure.

He works at home and spends WAY too much time hanging out in
the closet. He setup lucite view panels into the shelves
so he gan gaze without screwing up the environment.  His
wife said it looks like a premie baby unit.

Since he had a bad previous experience, he did a lot more
reading and research this time around. He got a lot of pressure
cookers.  He bought out all the known organic BRF and rye grain
from all the healthfood stores within a 50 miles radius in a
2 week period.  He's got a lot of mason jars, with RTV injection
ports and tyvek breathers.

He bought multiple sets of spore needles of multiple species from
multiple suppliers. He does NOT like separate needles that
he has to push together inside a glove box.

He found the "same" species is WAY different, and no single
supplier has a lock on the "better" version.  Better can
means faster growing, earlier pinning, better pinsets,
better multiple flushes, better recovery, or better water
retention characterstics. 

Since "better" could be a random crapshoot of spore genetics,
he makes no claim that any given supplier or strain is better.
He feels that since not all of the strains showed this behaviour,
he can't give any generic advice (or even pretend to prove it
out for others, more on this later).

He worked on his sterile procedure for MONTHS before he would
trust himself enough to start consuming the needles and grain.
He went through a lot of BRF jars and waited for a few weeks
to test his PC before using them. 

The different species allowed him to choose fast growers and early
large fruiters so he could concentrate his efforts.

He actually has about 2 dozen BRF jars way past their due date, sitting
there. Most are full of pins.  He kept a small rye grain jar (at least
1, sometimes up to 10) for each of the BRF jars he moved though.  In
some cases they are from a BRF mycellium (small clump)->Rye, in
other cases they were from isolated early pins.  He figures he
can whip of about 100 quart jars in 12 days based on the current
stored ones, but most will be from generic mycellium from a BRF,
not from a pin or an isolate.

He's out of fridge space. 

When the 1st pin (in jar) showed up he was so happy.  He sang, he danced,
he showed his wife, beaming with great joy. He carefully harvested in
a fully sterile environment, and created that 1st of many grain jars
from it.

Every BRF jar after that moment would be used to create 3-10
grain jars.  Grains were layed out to 60/40 coir/verm, and then cased
50/50 peat/verm. He found that plastic shoeboxes from the dollar store
had the best mix of bulk, water retention, depth, and firmness, as
compared to any other form factor.

Roger Rabbit's advice is followed VERY carefully, with gypsum, oyster
shell, and lime added as needed.  Occasional coffee/coffee grounds and
moisture crystals were used, but not with any consistency. PH was
NOT watched (he gave away is lab kit and found the straight formulas
worked fine, so he didn't bother to get another PH meter to measure what
it really was).

Now, when the trays are screaming "HARVEST ME, HARVEST ME",
he ignores them.  Let them open, let them drop spore, it's
just too much of a hassle.  Ok, that's pushing it, but really,
once you've stood before a sink and cleaned mushrooms for 2 hours,
the harvest loses it's appeal.

And he likes to wait for multiple trays to be ready when possible.

Also, he originally picked one at a time, as they were "ready", but
he ended up destroying way too many neighboring pins.  He found
he much rather wait for the whole tray and accept an occasional spore
dump and allow the "lower" pins more time to mature.

> If you want to prove this idea, you're going to need to do several
> grows. All of the grows will need to be done with isolates or clones.
> Also make sure to include a few control groups.
> Your spawn/substrate will also need to be identical for each run.

> Be sure to include:
> Temperatures
> Light Cycles (for pinning)
> Any info on your FAE set up.

> Your control group will also need to have the same environmental
> conditions except for the extended period of darkness. Im sure
> there are some other things Im missing, but I think that probably
> covers most of the bases.

He's going to be done in a month or 2.  He sees a light at the end of
the tunnel.  The project will draw to a close. As much as the scientific
curiosity draws him in, the forces pushing him to finish are pretty
strong.  Also, the dicipline required to truly prove this out is beyond
him.  Let's face it, he's a crazy lazy stoner who just happens to luck out
occasionally and stumble across magic.

Also, he knows it will simply not work for certain species.  In those,
the entire substrate DIED. And he has no idea which ones.  So this
needs to be done by each person for their own strain, and it needs
to be accepted that it might simply kill the tray.

So, he's not going to try.  He's reported, and he will continue to
report on the strength of the extra grow (in about 2-3 weeks), but
other than that, he'll simply continue to put the almost exhausted
ones aside in the dark and get the extra free shrooms.  He will also
put some young ones in the dark, but not with any consistency that
can be used for "proof".

So, if anyone wants to run with this feel free.

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InvisibleCyclohexylamine
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Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: shroom_bee]
    #14875667 - 08/05/11 06:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Please don't use that stupid "A FOAF" shit here.
We all know its you.
And it makes it annoying to read
:feelsbadman:

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Offlineozzysmygod
Late Night PC'ing Enthusiast
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Posts: 835
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Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14875701 - 08/05/11 06:31 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Wall of text!

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Offlineshroom_bee
Stranger
Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 291
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: anonjon]
    #14875709 - 08/05/11 06:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> It is believed that at that point production
> ceases, even tho the fruitbody will continue to
> put on some mass. There's no solid research to
> confirm this. It's just a popular belief.

I am not addressing fruit body size / development.
Whether the original stem and cap has all the magic
(sorry, certain level of paranoia, will continue to
phrase it this way, please understand) to start of with,
or continues to develop small amounts is not the issue.

> Lastly, I don't understand what conclusions you
> drew from the experience you describe.

The issue is the ADDITIONAL growth that the mycellium uses
to push the base of the mushroom out.  This can be many times
the size of the original mushroom, and we'll know in a couple of
weeks just how powerful it is.

> What experiment are you proposing and what is your hypothesis?

See other post.  I'm not.  At least, other than strength test of
current growth.

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Offlineshroom_bee
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Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 291
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: Cyclohexylamine]
    #14875723 - 08/05/11 06:45 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Have an admin tell me, and I won't.  I hate it too.  Really.

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Invisiblearp180
student of life
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Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 1,449
Loc: Macondo
Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: shroom_bee]
    #14875728 - 08/05/11 06:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Someone shoot me now. Are you growing different species? or different strains? Not that it really matters. Your conclusions regarding a "dark period" is wrong.


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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Offlineshroom_bee
Stranger
Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 291
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Re: Fuzzy sides, a different perspective [Re: ozzysmygod]
    #14875730 - 08/05/11 06:50 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

But was it worthwhile?

Yes, I know I write a lot.  And as I write, I think of more to write.
I end up cutting out more than I leave.

In this case, I write to show that while I am a nubie, I have done extensive research, reading, and actual experimentation, and am trying to inform on the environment and process as much as possible.  That way no one will waste their time point me to something already covered.

Also, I like to tell stories, but in this environment, they have to be constrained.

Hopefully it was clear enough, at least with the follow-on wall of text.

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Offlineshroom_bee
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Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 291
Last seen: 2 months, 26 days
Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: arp180]
    #14875738 - 08/05/11 06:55 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Sigh.

Ok.
BANG.

Read other wall of text for full explanation, including purposeful vagueness on exact strains.

Thanks
Sorry to annoy

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Invisiblearp180
student of life
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Registered: 10/17/08
Posts: 1,449
Loc: Macondo
Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: shroom_bee]
    #14875747 - 08/05/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_bee said:
Sigh.

Ok.
BANG.

Read other wall of text for full explanation, including purposeful vagueness on exact strains.

Thanks
Sorry to annoy



:laser:


--------------------
"Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain."  William Faulkner

"That which exists without my knowledge exists without my consent."
-A quote from the Judge in the novel Blood Meridian; or the Evening Redness in the West by Cormac McCarthy

"Let there be light" My Quick Reference Guide to Lighting
My AutoMono (11oz First Flush)
My Monster Mushroom Mono (9.3oz First Flush)


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Offlineozzysmygod
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: arp180]
    #14876320 - 08/05/11 11:10 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

This thread hurts my brain.

Im calling Troll, or dufus!

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InvisibleHorizonSpawn
Gettin' my grow on :)
Male

Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Myco-Tek.org Flag
Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: ozzysmygod]
    #14876910 - 08/05/11 01:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Did I miss it???  Or do we still have no idea what 12+ species "his afoafoafoafoaf" is growing??? Without a base reference to work from, I don't see the point of this thread at all :uhoh:


--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...

NOTE:  Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone :frown:

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Offlinesteelmonkey
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: HorizonSpawn]
    #14877484 - 08/05/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

It doesn't matter what strain,species the whole thread is redundant.Mycelium pushing out the fruit body? wtf is that,OP you seem intelligent but don't have a grasp on how mushrooms grow


--------------------

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Offlineshroom_bee
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: steelmonkey]
    #14878862 - 08/05/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, short and simple.

Standard advice is there is no reason to let them grow beyond a certain point (unless you are looking for weight, ie: dealing) due to drop-off of ratio to psilocybin to mass.

Except if you torture them with pure darkness you can trigger a tremendous growth of NEW lower stem growth.  This stem growth was not part of the original mushroom, it is more part of the mycelium substrate block.

This only works with some of the strains, so it is up to the individual to test their own if they care to, not depend on me.

Yes, these are all PCs.  No, I'm not listing them.  The major reason is they were mislabeled  (wiped off accidentally) early on in the process.  Some can identified  by sight, but not most, and I could be wrong, so I've given you what information I can.  OK?

No troll, or at least not intentionally. I was reporting on something that happened, repeated multiple times, and could be beneficial to others. I can only list the environment that I think triggered it, and hope others with more knowledge than me will take it seriously enough to think about.

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Offlineozzysmygod
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: shroom_bee]
    #14879518 - 08/06/11 12:30 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So your talking about Psilocybin Cubensis?

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Invisiblewildernessjunkie
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: ozzysmygod]
    #14879668 - 08/06/11 01:35 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

:andyistic:

Quote:

ozzysmygod said:
So your talking about Psilocybin Cubensis?




Not trying to be an ass, but my OCD is kicking in.

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Offlineshroom_bee
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: ozzysmygod]
    #14879947 - 08/06/11 05:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

"Yes, these are all PCs. "

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InvisibleHorizonSpawn
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Re: Was that a good or bad WTF? [Re: shroom_bee]
    #14880137 - 08/06/11 07:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shroom_bee said:
".....these are all PCs. "




Panaeolous cyanescens?

Phanerochaete chrysosporium?

Pholiota cylindrical?

Pleurotus citrinopileatus?

Pleurotus columbinus?

Pleurotus cornucopiae?

Pleurotus corticatus?

Pleurotus cystidiosus?

Pluteus cervinus?

Psilocybe cubensis?

Psilocybe cyanescens?

Psilocybe cyanofibrillosa?

??????????????????????????


--------------------
Please assume any and all prints exchanged are "WILD" in nature; and thus, should NOT be considered ASEPTIC...

NOTE:  Please excuse my brevity, as it is a bitch 'n' a half and slow as hell to type on this here phone :frown:

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