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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: love2shpongleIRL] * 1
    #14878101 - 08/05/11 06:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
They're job can't be all that difficult, it just takes the drive to do it. How many folks have that drive?



Bullshit.  You couldn't fucking do it even if you put in 24 hrs a day.  I couldn't either.


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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
Opiophile
Male

Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 4,784
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14878118 - 08/05/11 06:15 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Reason I question it's difficulty is my father recently launched a successful business and moved into the 250k above bracket. Lot's of hours, but it doesn't seem all that difficult(just stressfull and time consuming).


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
Opiophile
Male

Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 4,784
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: love2shpongleIRL]
    #14878126 - 08/05/11 06:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Perhaps it is way different running a fortune 500 company.


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: love2shpongleIRL] * 1
    #14878189 - 08/05/11 06:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
Reason I question it's difficulty is my father recently launched a successful business and moved into the 250k above bracket. Lot's of hours, but it doesn't seem all that difficult(just stressfull and time consuming).



These guys surpassed that in their twenties.  They went to the best high schools, got the best grades, crushed the SATs, went to the best schools for undergrad and then grad school and crushed those then worked their way up from there.  You couldn't shine their shoes.  I couldn't come close and I'm brilliant.  They work their ass off.  It's what they live for.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 19 days
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14878225 - 08/05/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
Reason I question it's difficulty is my father recently launched a successful business and moved into the 250k above bracket. Lot's of hours, but it doesn't seem all that difficult(just stressfull and time consuming).



These guys surpassed that in their twenties.  They went to the best high schools, got the best grades, crushed the SATs, went to the best schools for undergrad and then grad school and crushed those then worked their way up from there.  You couldn't shine their shoes.  I couldn't come close and I'm brilliant.  They work their ass off.  It's what they live for.




One of my engineering management classes was taught by a retired VP from a fortune 500 company.  We called it "story hour with Don", as the entire hour was him telling the things he learned along the way.  An amazing class that was full of information that you would never get from a textbook.  He used to go in at 4:00am and leave around 7:30pm, including weekends.  (Timing was intentional so that he could see the comings and goings of all three factory shifts.)

I don't know that I agree that these people went to the best of the best for education, but they are as specialized as a gold medal Olympian.  I couldn't do their job any more than I could win a gold medal at the Olympics.  It wouldn't matter how much time, effort, education, training, or anything else that I put into it, it just isn't going to happen.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineJryan
The Thinker
Male

Registered: 07/30/11
Posts: 1,144
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14878283 - 08/05/11 06:58 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Bullshit.  First of all the middle class isn't, for the most part, given much choice, between government mandates and the fact that employers get to choose the plans available.  As to pennies a month vs hundreds of dollars that is just retarded.  Deeply, seriously retarded.  Health insurance companies work on a tight margin.  What percent of their revenue do you suppose goes to executives and what makes you think you could hire people to do the job for less?  I see this endless bleat about executive pay from morons who couldn't run a lemonade stand.  No, children, you couldn't do their job.  You are almost all relentlessly mediocre, at best.  This is like weekend softball warriors bitching about the pay of professional ball players.  No.  Just no.  You can't do their job.  You can't even understand their job and the odds that you would even put in the time when you spend most of your working hours waiting for the weekend is zero.  That horse would have been shot in the starting gate.



Rite, then again, I'm sure you know me personally, and my intellectual level from the few posts I've made.  Then again, Zappaisgod :tongue:.  If you really think that CEO's are not over payed, you are either a CEO or watch WAY to much Fox News.


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OfflineJryan
The Thinker
Male

Registered: 07/30/11
Posts: 1,144
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Jryan]
    #14878322 - 08/05/11 07:06 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

love2shpongleIRL said:
Reason I question it's difficulty is my father recently launched a successful business and moved into the 250k above bracket. Lot's of hours, but it doesn't seem all that difficult(just stressfull and time consuming).



These guys surpassed that in their twenties.  They went to the best high schools, got the best grades, crushed the SATs, went to the best schools for undergrad and then grad school and crushed those then worked their way up from there.  You couldn't shine their shoes.  I couldn't come close and I'm brilliant.  They work their ass off.  It's what they live for.



Does this mean that if I work hard, I will be a rich CEO?  The way you have layed it out here is that work hard=make millions, no one at McDonalds works hard of course.


--------------------
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Offlinelove2shpongleIRL
Opiophile
Male

Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 4,784
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14878348 - 08/05/11 07:12 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

You guy's are probably right. Maybe it's my ego talking, but it's hard for me to let go of the thought that if you worked hard and put enough effort into it that alot of us could be in a similar position.


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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot

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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 19 days
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Jryan]
    #14878367 - 08/05/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> If you really think that CEO's are not over payed, you are either a CEO or watch WAY to much Fox News.

I don't think most CEOs are overpaid, and I am not a CEO and I don't watch any TV.

> Does this mean that if I work hard, I will be a rich CEO?

No more than it means if you train hard you will be a star NFL quarterback with five Superbowl rings, one for each finger of your right hand.

> The way you have layed it out here is that work hard=make millions

Pretty much.  Most people, if they are willing to put in the time and effort, can retire with a few million dollars.  Most people are not willing to put in the time and effort required.

> no one at McDonalds works hard of course

Don't confuse working hard with hard work.  A ditch digger works hard, but it isn't hard work.  Yes, it is labor intensive work, but any moron can dig a ditch.  It isn't a hard thing to do.  Any moron can flip a burger at McDonalds, it isn't a hard thing to do.  Sure, they may be working hard while they are doing it, but this misses the point Zappa was making.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflineJryan
The Thinker
Male

Registered: 07/30/11
Posts: 1,144
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Seuss]
    #14878396 - 08/05/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> If you really think that CEO's are not over payed, you are either a CEO or watch WAY to much Fox News.

I don't think most CEOs are overpaid, and I am not a CEO and I don't watch any TV.

> Does this mean that if I work hard, I will be a rich CEO?

No more than it means if you train hard you will be a star NFL quarterback with five Superbowl rings, one for each finger of your right hand.

> The way you have layed it out here is that work hard=make millions

Pretty much.  Most people, if they are willing to put in the time and effort, can retire with a few million dollars.  Most people are not willing to put in the time and effort required.

> no one at McDonalds works hard of course

Don't confuse working hard with hard work.  A ditch digger works hard, but it isn't hard work.  Yes, it is labor intensive work, but any moron can dig a ditch.  It isn't a hard thing to do.  Any moron can flip a burger at McDonalds, it isn't a hard thing to do.  Sure, they may be working hard while they are doing it, but this misses the point Zappa was making.



I'm going backwards through this post (I havn't figured out how to quote individual parts yet).  Yes, while a ditch digger works hard, he has no education.  How do you know he couldn't afford it?  How do you know his parents wouldn't pay for his education (Meaning he couldn't get financial assistance)?
Yes they don't call it the top 5% for a reason?  your statement here "Most people, if they are willing to put in the time and effort, can retire with a few million dollars. Most people, I"m assuing, does not imply only 5%?  Why do you think their is a middle class?  Are you insinuating that 90% of America is 100% lazy?
Correct
How can you tell me someone that makes over 1 million dollars a year isn't over payed?  That sounds like propaganda to me.  I just think that anyone that has to make the decision of which yacht he is taking out today, is over payed.  If you think they aren't, wow.


--------------------
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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Seuss]
    #14878422 - 08/05/11 07:28 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> The way you have layed it out here is that work hard=make millions

Pretty much.  Most people, if they are willing to put in the time and effort, can retire with a few million dollars.  Most people are not willing to put in the time and effort required.






The other necessary requirement, besides time and effort, is frugality.  So, so very often people who want to increase their economic status seek to make more money.  But people who do climb the economic ladder do so just as much by watching their spending.  Planning and managing your finances is vital to accumulating wealth, no matter how much you make.  Unfortunately so many people spend their money, rather than "spend" it on paper via a budget and plan before they earn it.

(I keep a financial plan/budget in excel, and I wrote some code in visual basic that reads the comma deliminated files from my financial institutions.  Its awesome, it automatically tabulates my spending and saving, and compares it to my budgets plan.  Of course, this is complicated and is basically a hobby.  A simple sheet of paper with a written goal of the next month's costs and savings is certainly sufficient.  Grandma and Grandpa used to do that, but for some reason Mom and Dad dont...  :undecided:)

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Jryan]
    #14878435 - 08/05/11 07:31 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Jryan said:
Are you insinuating that 90% of America is 100% lazy?





See my post above.  I don't think most Americans are lazy, I think most of them are fiscally irresponsible.  Most of them spend like there is no tomorrow and could have been millionaires if they were responsible.

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OfflineJryan
The Thinker
Male

Registered: 07/30/11
Posts: 1,144
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: DieCommie]
    #14878453 - 08/05/11 07:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I think you are approaching the logistics of life though.  At what point is it okay to cut spending?  Will your lifestyle/life be better if you cut spending?  These, I guess, are impossible questions to answer because that is asking you to answer a question about a different path you could've taken in your life.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Jryan]
    #14878476 - 08/05/11 07:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

At what point is it okay to cut spending?




If you have luxuries and arn't saving enough.  Then its not only ok to cut spending, its vital.

Quote:

Will your lifestyle/life be better if you cut spending?




Yes.  Buying into more investments and less movies and fast food would make nearly everyone's life better.

Most Americans spend most of their income on unnecessary luxuries.  There is nothing wrong with that, its great actually.  But it means they are ultra pathetic if they are complaining about people making more than them and convincing themselves they got a raw deal somehow.

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OfflineJryan
The Thinker
Male

Registered: 07/30/11
Posts: 1,144
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: DieCommie]
    #14878488 - 08/05/11 07:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

At what point is it okay to cut spending?




If you have luxuries and arn't saving enough.  Then its not only ok to cut spending, its vital.

Quote:

Will your lifestyle/life be better if you cut spending?




Yes.  Buying into more investments and less movies and fast food would make nearly everyone's life better.

Most Americans spend most of their income on unnecessary luxuries.  There is nothing wrong with that, its great actually.  But it means they are ultra pathetic if they are complaining about people making more than them and convincing themselves they got a raw deal somehow.



You didn't argue the question there, I don't think...  nor did you even approach the theoretical aspect of it, seeing as how your life and my life are never the same.
(Can someone PM me if this is going way to off subject, don't want to be warned by an admin.)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Jryan]
    #14878502 - 08/05/11 07:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nor did you even approach the theoretical aspect of it, seeing as how your life and my life are never the same.




I think I addressed it by saying that most Americans spend more on luxuries than necessities.  That is averaging over the set of lifestyles and situations Americans have.  This argument would not work in a place like Somalia where they spend nearly all of their income on necessities and are still in want.

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OfflineJryan
The Thinker
Male

Registered: 07/30/11
Posts: 1,144
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: DieCommie]
    #14878518 - 08/05/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

nor did you even approach the theoretical aspect of it, seeing as how your life and my life are never the same.




I think I addressed it by saying that most Americans spend more on luxuries than necessities.  That is averaging over the set of lifestyles and situations Americans have.  This argument would not work in a place like Somalia where they spend nearly all of their income on necessities and are still in want.



True, but what makes you happy doesn't make me happy.  Obviously.  So how can you imply that if I save money I will be happier?  MMMMMM The Moral Landscape at work.  Man, I really need to make a thread on that lol.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 19 days
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Jryan]
    #14878524 - 08/05/11 07:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

> The other necessary requirement, besides time and effort, is frugality.

I agree completely, but I count "effort" to include fiscal responsibility, among many other sacrifices.

> Yes, while a ditch digger works hard, he has no education.

How do you know?  Perhaps he has a PhD in civil engineering.

> How do you know he couldn't afford it?  How do you know his parents wouldn't pay for his education

I didn't bring up anything about education... you are projecting, or confusing my comments with somebody else.  Regardless, speaking from my own experiences, I put myself through college, working full time while taking a full load of classes, to get a double major in computer science and electrical engineering.  It took me eight years, but I came out with only $4000 of debt (which I picked up my freshman year, before I knew any better).  My parents didn't give me a dime, and I only had a few thousand saved up in my college fund.

I'm nothing special.  Lots and lots of people are capable of putting themselves through college.  You have to be conservative and sacrifice a lot.  You can't go out partying all the time like your friends do, because you have to work instead.  You have to be careful what you spend your money on, eating cheaply, living with housemates, walking instead of driving when possible, etc.

> Are you insinuating that 90% of America is 100% lazy?

I'm claiming that most Americans enjoy living beyond their means.  Many are also lazy, but that was not my point.

> How can you tell me someone that makes over 1 million dollars a year isn't over payed?

Because it is true.  Who are you to decide what I am worth?  If somebody is willing to pay me one million a year for my services, then it is because I have a skill set that is valuable.  I didn't sit around, pissing away my future, smoking cannabis, picking my ass, and whining about flipping burgers.  I worked my ass off to get a good education and to develop a skill set that was marketable.  Using my education and my skills, I worked my ass off to produce a very good living for myself.

Rather than whining about people that succeed in life, why don't you work on being a success?  Of course, it is much easier to be a loser, sit in your parents basement, collect welfare, and blame "rich people" for all your woes.  (In general, not directed at you.)


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Seuss]
    #14878554 - 08/05/11 07:55 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

> How can you tell me someone that makes over 1 million dollars a year isn't over payed?

Because it is true.  Who are you to decide what I am worth?




The person who actually is to decide is the employer.  And of course, CEO's do have employers.  As a stock holder, I am an employer of a CEO.  I will gladly pay an extra million for a CEO that will bring my company more than a million.  Why wouldn't I?  That's how wealth gets created.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Infamous Obama Healthcare [Re: Jryan]
    #14878568 - 08/05/11 07:57 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Jryan said:
True, but what makes you happy doesn't make me happy.  Obviously.  So how can you imply that if I save money I will be happier?




Because you are complaining about not having enough money...

The people who spend on luxuries and are content are not the topic here.  Its the people who feel shafted and want more cash.

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