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The Whale

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Where does change come from?
#14850423 - 07/31/11 05:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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...within!
Kidding, but seriously, where do new things come from?
If A causes B, then we would always expect B... but sometimes we get "letters" that aren't even in the "alphabet."
If the past causes the present, how could we ever have anything novel unless that newness pre-existed in some elementary form in the past? Sounds like teleology and McKenna jargon, I know.
But I want to hear ideas for and against it. This thread for example: you can compile a causal model of the whole universe and there isn't one god damned reason to suspect it would lead to me ending this sentence with KABOOM!
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zzripz
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: The Whale]
#14850446 - 07/31/11 05:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Look at it this way. When you listen to a lot of pop music--to me--it sounds souless. yet when you listen to old music like for example Delta Blues, and Delta Gospel music, you hear something that is SO full of...soul? primal? some...thing you canot put your finger on, but is very real and deeply moving. where has THAT gone interests me more!
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The Whale

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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: zzripz]
#14850461 - 07/31/11 06:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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So 50 years from now someone will listen to Hanson's Mmbop song and be inspired?
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Kickle
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: The Whale]
#14850693 - 07/31/11 08:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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as for why you ended your original post with the word kaboom, I'm sure you had reasons. I know intimately a few people in my life that refuse to walk the same path twice if they can help it. the first is an artist, the second a poet, and the third a filmmaker. but is this tendency born out of nothing? no more than anything else.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Visionary Tools



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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: Kickle]
#14850824 - 07/31/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You know, I was listening to someone talking about Nicola Tesla, explaining his surname means Tessellation, explaining the symbolism behind him, and saying that a lot of his technology was previously occult knowledge.
Now, I accept that people get told things, but somewhere, the thought has to be original.
Does it come from a spirit, or is it a truely internal process, the person, their mind, the experiences of their life making them think up a solution to a problem that is unique?
I pray to god. I have a feeling praying to ancestors or other individuals invites possession, and I'd rather be in command of my faculties.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


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Quote:
Visionary Tools said: You know, I was listening to someone talking about Nicola Tesla, explaining his surname means Tessellation, explaining the symbolism behind him, and saying that a lot of his technology was previously occult knowledge.
Now, I accept that people get told things, but somewhere, the thought has to be original.
Does it come from a spirit, or is it a truely internal process, the person, their mind, the experiences of their life making them think up a solution to a problem that is unique?
I pray to god. I have a feeling praying to ancestors or other individuals invites possession, and I'd rather be in command of my faculties.
You just invited Possession. Alternate version.
The more things change the more nothing changes except for the pace of change which continues to accelerate. The pull of the modern world is tugging at the feet of mother earth. Will she kick man in the face or get knocked down?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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zzripz
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: The Whale]
#14851143 - 07/31/11 11:05 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Whale said: So 50 years from now someone will listen to Hanson's Mmbop song and be inspired?
No. some modern music now will not sound good in a trillion years. I mean that the original old music I mentioned IS good. It is embued with a primal energy and spirit that you cannot manipulate--it HAS to be felt, and you cant fake that feeling.
I have heard old Enghlish folk songs that have this awesome feel about them that many of the modern pop songs with all their 'novelty' hasn't got.
So your question is 'where does change come from?' that is a linear question.
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circastes
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: zzripz]
#14852860 - 07/31/11 06:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Go to Now, never leave. Breathing should stay auto, hunger and thirst will inform you when they're ready. No change, nothing comes, nothing goes, nothing BEcomes... in Now there is only God. Ecstasy in chest, pure feeling throughout rest of body. Dilated pupils and widened eye circumference. Possibly slower or halted aging depending on DNA - irrelevant when you get 'there', there, which is everywhere.
Have fun.
-------------------- My solitude... My shield... My armour... TESTED WITH FULL FORCE
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crkhd
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: circastes] 1
#14854817 - 08/01/11 02:44 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm fairly sure it comes from the infinite source of the universe. What we are observing now is a work in progress. As the observable universe expands, its entropy/information content increases. With more possible arrangements for particle positions/momenta there is no surprise that there is now more novelty.
Another way to understand this is that the resolution of the universe increases over time. With more pixels comes prettier pictures, the complexity of the universe is intimately connected to the flow of time. It's like making a sculpture in the rough then smashing it to bits, reforming it, then smashing it into progressively finer bits and reforming it. Thus does the universe become more orderly over time.
Check out "Everything Forever - Learning to See Timelessness", it goes in depth with regards to this. The author makes some very interesting and intuitive points.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
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The Whale

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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: Kickle]
#14856491 - 08/01/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
crkhd said: I'm fairly sure it comes from the infinite source of the universe. What we are observing now is a work in progress. As the observable universe expands, its entropy/information content increases. With more possible arrangements for particle positions/momenta there is no surprise that there is now more novelty.
Another way to understand this is that the resolution of the universe increases over time. With more pixels comes prettier pictures, the complexity of the universe is intimately connected to the flow of time. It's like making a sculpture in the rough then smashing it to bits, reforming it, then smashing it into progressively finer bits and reforming it. Thus does the universe become more orderly over time.
Check out "Everything Forever - Learning to See Timelessness", it goes in depth with regards to this. The author makes some very interesting and intuitive points.
- If the universe is capable of expanding and moving towards such complexity, to my mind it suggests a high level of complexity in the very beginning; one that must necessarily be previously embedded. "Controlled chaos" is a term I can relate to.
- If this is so, why is there a need or tendency towards novelty or complexity? An entity, organism, or process that is self-governing and is capable of such feats does this why? The Grateful Dead song "Eyes of the World" comes to mind. Perhaps it is the mere agony and ecstasy of the whole thing.
Quote:
Kickle said:

as for why you ended your original post with the word kaboom, I'm sure you had reasons. I know intimately a few people in my life that refuse to walk the same path twice if they can help it. the first is an artist, the second a poet, and the third a filmmaker. but is this tendency born out of nothing? no more than anything else.
If you insist on never taking the same path, then you are always taking the path of "new paths." It's like being a Buddhist who's attached to the idea of non-attachment.
Regarding my "kaboom" ending, I actually had zero reasons for typing it (at least known to my conscious mind). But even if we combined all of the causal events throughout my day - the billions of received signals, past and present - we would still never arrive at any equation that would lead us towards understanding why I typed the word "kaboom."
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Kickle
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: The Whale]
#14856581 - 08/01/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you insist on never taking the same path, then you are always taking the path of "new paths." It's like being a Buddhist who's attached to the idea of non-attachment.
I don't think it's a conscious pursuit, or even a choice. Just who they are. They are driven to be unique snowflakes who do unique things. I also think it's highly dependent and if one were to break it down they could find a lot of psychological ties to a given behavior, no matter how off the beaten path. For instance you did not invent a new word to type kaboom, you relied on a word from memory. Without that memory, the word kaboom would not have arisen. If you had made up a word, it most likely would depend upon phonetics to be created. And if you were to attempt and override those natural processes of language, it would require conscious thought to avoid the habitual patterns of speech we all find ourselves using.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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The Whale

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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: Kickle]
#14856618 - 08/01/11 01:58 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
They are driven to be unique snowflakes who do unique things.
Just to steer this in another (hopefully related) direction:
This seems to suggest that these individuals have an innate tendency to engage in creative and atypical behavior. It's almost as if artists and musicians, for instance, can't help it - in other words, they don't consciously chose it. So may we then say that "nature" in terms of biology and development is inherently chaotic and hell-bent towards novelty? Of course it probably feels to these individuals that they are the drivers in this automobile on no known course (thanks, brain), but the processes that are really responsible for moving the bus are out of our control.
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Kickle
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: The Whale]
#14856701 - 08/01/11 02:15 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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So may we then say that "nature" in terms of biology and development is inherently chaotic and hell-bent towards novelty?
too much novelty and the whole thing collapses. gotta have something more solid to fall back on when the novel idea doesn't provide anything useful at first (or ever). or when the novel idea incinerates 150,000 people. but I do agree that novelty is a part of nature's process.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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crkhd
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: The Whale]
#14860594 - 08/02/11 09:04 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said: I pray to god. I have a feeling praying to ancestors or other individuals invites possession, and I'd rather be in command of my faculties.
I think you're definitely onto somthing there. Forget spiritual possession for a second (not that it is not real) and think it logically - praying to something means you inherently believe/accept that you are subservient to that something's will, whatever it is; you have accepted that it has some kind of ability to control your reality. Whatever your concept is of that thing will thusly dominate you. So what better to pray to but that which truly does have absolute dominion over you!
Quote:
The Whale said: - If the universe is capable of expanding and moving towards such complexity, to my mind it suggests a high level of complexity in the very beginning; one that must necessarily be previously embedded. "Controlled chaos" is a term I can relate to.
- If this is so, why is there a need or tendency towards novelty or complexity? An entity, organism, or process that is self-governing and is capable of such feats does this why? The Grateful Dead song "Eyes of the World" comes to mind. Perhaps it is the mere agony and ecstasy of the whole thing.
Controlled chaos is a very fitting term, the flux of waves/particles in the universe is utterly chaotic yet on the grand scale everything is somehow exactly where it is meant to be. What was at the beginning? You're right, it was beyond complex. Infinity in its raw state; everything happening at once. And I mean everything.
Why does it move towards novelty/complexity? In one way there is absolutely nothing new whatsoever, the total energy of the universe is constant. Our idea of increasing novelty is a construct born out of our inclination to classify/separate/name everything in sight. In fact, what is actually happening is that we are becoming more aware about what is over time (i.e. the display resolution of the universe is increasing over time).
How can I prove this to you? Very easily. When you go outside at night and stare into the distance, you are looking at the very edge of the observable universe itself. Are you looking at infinity there and then? Hell no, you're looking at the pointy tip of a cone from the wide side of it, a crappy low res version of true reality. Consider this, that darkness you see, that is what 14 billion years ago looked like. What do you think it looks like right now, all the way over there?!?!
I can put this in a more rigorous way. There is a difference between the universe and the observable universe. The observable universe is actually a spherical bubble that is rapidly expanding with time and it has a very definite boundary. However this spherical boundary is an illusion because any point in 3D space can be defined as the centre of the universe. As time goes on, more of the actual boundaryless universe becomes visible; we are exploring the "fog of war".
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
Edited by crkhd (08/02/11 02:27 PM)
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The Whale

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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: crkhd]
#14860760 - 08/02/11 09:50 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's speeding up:
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crkhd
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Re: Where does change come from? [Re: The Whale]
#14860944 - 08/02/11 10:42 AM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Heading absolutely nowhere in particular as fast as we possibly can, to infinity and beyond!
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
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