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Offlineblujay
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Here's a "fun one"
    #14856869 - 08/01/11 02:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

One of my friends says he believes the 911-truther movement... He read about it on the internet!

I was so taken aback I think I kinda let him off without an appropriate confrontation. I really just didn't know what to say. I realize it's a bit ironic to call him bunk for going out on the internet and then turning around and using the same source to debunk the myth, but just explaining it will not be enough.

I know we have a conspiracies forum, but as this isn't about supporting the conspiracy in any way it doesn't seem appropriate to put it there. It's actually about the physical event of flying a 747 into the very unique world trade center. So help me by finding anything that explains why those whackjobs are crazy...

... Please don't come up in here defending the 911 truth movement. There are threads for that. That's not what I'm here for.

His 3 points were something like:

The plane had something attached to it that Boeing can't explain- can't find this one online.

That the buildings fell as they would in a controlled demolition, I found this:



and this:



Also some nonsense about "a missile being seen fired from an F16 into the pentagon"

This dude is fairly reasonable, I feel like if I can just show him the not-a-tinfoil-hat side of this argument he'll be like "oh"


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wat man rly

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Here's a "fun one" [Re: blujay] * 1
    #14859460 - 08/02/11 12:32 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Usually they try and make exceedingly vague claims and then equivocate long before they can be pinned down to a position- at least the experienced ones.  If your pall isn't emotionally invested in this too much then it might be enough to just get him to state what the reasons to believe his claim are and if the reasons are logically connected to the claim, try and disprove them factually.

The missle thing has pretty much no evidence except a blur on a video tape and a crash site in PA and in the pentagon that looks different than low speed crash sites (like most plane crashes where the pilot is trying to not fly into the ground at 500 miles an hour).  As the kinetic energy of an object is one-half of the mass times the square of the velocity, a plane going 500 mph has a lot more energy than one where the pilot lost control and tried to land the plane going 150mp but crashes:  more than 11 times more energy.  You can't expect to see the same kind of wreckage with that much energy smacking down into the hard ground.

As for the tower falling like a controlled demolition, what evidence of that does he have?  Clearly the tower starts falling from site of the plane crash and fire and then soon after the lower floors start pancaking from the impact zone downwards.  This is not at all how a controled demolitiion is, where the fall is initiated at the base of the building, rather than a 100 floor up.

One thing people seem to claim is that the building should have toppled over like tree cut at the bottom, but they never can say where the force to move the building laterally would come from.  there's a good reason for that: that force doesn't exist in the official theory's version- so how is the absence of such a fall an anomoly?  Those with any physics knowledge would know a gigantic building is not going to "take a walk" a block to the side before falling without some gigantic torque on the building that simply wasn't there.  The intact lower structure actually prevented this from occuring and explains why this could not have happened.

If he's got any intellectual honesty he should be able to satisfy himself: its not like these things don't have rational explanations.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Here's a "fun one" [Re: blujay]
    #14859980 - 08/02/11 03:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If this turns into a conspiracy theory thread with a bunch of truthers regurgitating the same old BS, the thread will be locked.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlineblujay
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Re: Here's a "fun one" [Re: johnm214]
    #14861059 - 08/02/11 11:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I know, fortunately I don't think it will get the publicity for that.

You could jus tmove it to their forum, but I would prefer it to loving die.

Good advice. On one hand, if one more person resents the government for any reason in this day and age that can't be a bad thing.


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wat man rly

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Here's a "fun one" [Re: blujay]
    #14863517 - 08/02/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

From my perspective this is fine in this forum as long as we talk about the science of it and so forth.  We just don't need the same old copy-past crap from the conspiracy theory side of the site in this forum, but rational discussion of the science and tech of the building and its collapse is fine.

Please let us know what your friend says, I'd be interested to see if you can get him to reexamine his position.

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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: Here's a "fun one" [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #14868894 - 08/03/11 07:27 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Due to the emotional impact of 9/11, and the drastic events stemming from it, people can easily over analyze things to find a cause(subconsciously maybe or just swayed by prior feelings toward the govt. etc.).  When you see the crystal clear video recordings of the jets flying into the tower it seems pretty cut and dry that what is commonly believed to have happened that day, did actually happen. 

I was actually underway that day on an aircraft carrier.  We were just relieved from our "watch" in the Persian Gulf and were in the Indian ocean.  The first tower was hit while I was taking a dump in the head of my berthing quarters.  By chance I passed the big-screen TV we had in the common area and saw the stuff on the news.  Not long after that I saw the second airliner hit the tower and my jaw literally dropped.  This was a few hours after I was done with my watch so I ran up to my work space (literally on the other end of an aircraft carrier). 

Obviously the US has heavily encrypted/isolated networks for defense and intelligence.  Only people working in departments/divisions involved in handling or using that information ever see it.  From a military perspective it was one of the most memorable and terrifying events of my life.  There isn't anything I can say really other than I knew what was going on before it hit the news, and nothing else really happened.  Those attacks were so well planned that they tactically had almost every branch of defense trying to figure out what the fuck to do.  It's ridiculous to assume that any conspiracy would be known by military regulars, but there was never one moment that anything seemed odd or out of place with how operations were performed via a platform immense enough for national security.

There are so many claims and arguments about that day in regards to the US actually doing it.  From the way the towers fell to how the steel shouldn't have melted or been weakened enough to fail, we can all see the video from numerous angles of what happened.  As john said, the kinetic energy of the airliner alone is massive so adding the combustion of jet-fuel and steady winds at such an altitude seems completely reasonable to cause a tower to collapse.  I literally said out loud; "Those firefighters should get out of there and the area should be evacuated because that's going to collapse."  That statement came out of my mouth less than a minute after the second airliner hit. 

How many tests have been done on skyscrapers in which an airliner full of fuel and mass from passengers slams into it at very high speeds to test structural integrity?  /sarcasm  Seriously though, computer simulations are the best thing we have for attempting to evaluate what damage the structure of the tower(s) sustained at impact and after burning.  Another important aspect, and it's usually brought to light by both sides, is that the protective coating on the steel in case of fires would have been decimated by the impact of the airliner.  The collapse was anything but controlled.  Getting concrete and steel that high takes some amazing engineering, and that weight can easily become too much when just a small portion of the support(or area of support) is removed.  So all of that weight from the point of impact and above, the damage caused from impact, further damage from exploding jet-fuel, still more damage from a raging fire with plenty of oxygen, and our good old friend gravity seem pretty reasonable to bring down a tower. 

What's horrifyingly obvious to me is how the attack(s) completely fulfilled their goals with almost surgical precision.  If you just assume it was done by terrorists then the magnitude of the entire operation was mind boggling.  If you think their is some conspiracy then just imagine how inconceivably complex it would have to be in order to leave nothing behind but some circumstantial/speculative variables.  Occam's razor...

Not much science in my post... Most of what happened with the WTC seems pretty cut and dry from what I saw with my own eyes.  :shrug:  Those airliners were flown right into the corner area where support would be compromised.


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Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Here's a "fun one" [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #14871387 - 08/04/11 09:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

why does building 7 blow up?


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