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Offlinethelox
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DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment?
    #1485374 - 04/23/03 07:14 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I've read people say that it doesn't because "party drug" users don't feel enlightened.
For what it's worth I've asked friends who have done medium dose-high dose trips in the past but don't really care for shrooms
and don't understand why I like them so much.
Anyway one friend said "They make me think the world is a game and fucked up shit"
other friends gave similar answers. Now these friends are not interested in such things as
philosophy, etc. I think maybe they do give you the chance to realize a different state of consciousness
that is valuable, that different levels of conscienceness allows different knowledge. I think maybe
this scared my friends and attributes to "bad trips"

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OfflineSheepish
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1485393 - 04/23/03 07:41 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

It really just differs from person to person. What's pleasurable for one person, is painful or terrifying for another. All a matter of perception. It's possible they were afraid; they felt like they were losing their mind (in a way, they were, but not everyone can lie back and accept this), it's all very frightening to them.
It's a similar situation around here... A while ago I was asking people whether or not they were going hunting for shrooms this year, but the general reaction was that most people were afraid of them. Perhaps it's because they have a lack of understanding? That they kind of expect it to be just another drug like alcohol and pot, which are far more predictable and easier to handle.
You must certainly have to be brave! And have an open mind too, and even the people who view it as a party drug are able to gain enlightenment from it. I think some people just get overwhelmed by the amount of information and thoughts that can pop up on a shroom trip. If only they learnt to let go :wink: 

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Invisibleperuvian spark
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1485433 - 04/23/03 08:15 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

No psychedelic by itself can bring about permanent enlightenment. All psychedelic substances can do is show us the doorway to enlightenment, just give us a taste of what it might be like. It's up to us alone to decide whether we want to take the next step, and at that point you will have no need for psychedelic help anyway.
Your friends are just scared of what they don't know.


--------------------
"The only unchangeable certainty is that nothing is certain and everything is changeable."

Edited by peruvian spark (04/23/03 08:16 AM)

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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: peruvian spark] * 1
    #1485449 - 04/23/03 08:29 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

>>All psychedelic substances can do is show us the doorway to enlightenment, just give us a taste of what it might be like.

I have to disagree. Two years ago I would have said the same thing; but psychedelics are simply doses of chemicals that affect your perceptions. They CAN help you gain insight to the nature of consciousness itself...but enlightenment is not a dose or induced experience; to be free of samsaric existence and to strip ourselves of our mind's delusions is something only we ourselves can do. The Buddha always taught that he could not enlighten anyone; he could only show you the way. It is up to the individual to meditate and practice Dharma in order to set themself free.

To think we can just take psychedelics long enough and one day we'll suddenly become enlightened is misleading. Psychedelics are great tools, don't get me wrong...if it wasn't for weed and lsd, my interest in meditation would have never taken root. But now that I've been meditating consistently for two years I have to say that my sober practices are far more rewarding and "real." I've reached such beautiful states of mind in my meditations that no psychedelic experience can even begin to approach.

See them for what they are; tools to be induced into different realms of consciousness and a means to take a "first hand tour" of your mind and how it perceives the sensory world...but do not mistake the psychedelic experience for enlightenment...they are two very different things. Enlightenment is acheived through dedicated motivation and altruistic states of mind being put into daily practice...not just while you're "high."

Love & Light,

Boppity

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Offlinethelox
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Boppity604]
    #1485480 - 04/23/03 08:42 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I completely agree with you Boppity. I used to do like 7 gram doses
once or twice a month for about a year. I found myself almost feeling like I needed my fix
so I said I wouldn't let myself do shrooms again until my next (21st) birthday which is in june.
that was about 4 months ago. I've been focusing more on my dreams since then
and a had a lucid dream albeit breif the clarity was amazing. I've started a dream journal and am trying this route
to better understand myself. Although I do think I am going to take shrooms on my birthday
which is in June.

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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1485668 - 04/23/03 10:09 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I would think that the state of enlightenment would be very close to the psychedelic experience. Very close. But then I am not enlightened, so I don't know.

The thing about it is, the more "awake" you are, the more "awake" the people around you become.

Can you imagine what would happen if everyone on earth tripped at the same time? When I think about a "global awakening", that's how I'd imagine it to be.


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Offlinebiglo
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Revelation]
    #1485712 - 04/23/03 10:24 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, you can't buy enlightenment, peace, and understanding for $5 a hit.  Neither does new clothes or a car or happiness.  It's up to a person to do the work.  You may reach nirvana one night, but you still have to wake up to reality in the morning.  The whole world tripping? That would be one hell of a sight!  Hehe someone would say aliens are invading the world and mass panic would ensue!! hehe, shhhh!!! Don't give the government any ideas!  :grin: 

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OfflineTonearm
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: biglo]
    #1485755 - 04/23/03 10:40 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Great thread! I've read a bit about this subject and it's very interesting. From what I can gather, the psychedelic experience IS enlightenment. The thing is, it's temporary. Some people hang onto their ego as they are forced through the door and that can cause problems. This was all clearly stated in Ram Dass's "Be Here Now".

Also, in a review of "Zig Zag Zen" the writer closes with the following:
"
But there are others -- Alan Watts was one -- who say that either road will get you there. Once when I saw Watts speak at an Esalen-sponsored seminar, he was asked a question on this very topic. "Which way is the best way to achieve enlightenment," the person asked, "through meditation or psychedelic drugs?"

Watts laughed a little and thought for a moment, then said, "Well, I don't know about a 'best' way, but perhaps you want to think of it like this, you can walk to New York or you can fly."
"

This review is online here:
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2002/07/11/badiner/

Meditation seems to be the path to "true" (i.e. permanent) enlightenment, but the psychedelic experience is said to be a temporary experience of enlightenment.

Also, in "Be Here Now" Ram Dass tells his story of going to India with LSD. When he gave it to some devout meditators there, they responded with "Good, but not as good as meditation." When he found a man whom was a kind of spiritual master (an enlightened being I suppose), he asked for the LSD and when he took it absolutely nothing happened.


--------------------
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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Revelation]
    #1485829 - 04/23/03 11:07 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

>>Can you imagine what would happen if everyone on earth tripped at the same time? When I think about a "global awakening", that's how I'd imagine it to be.

I would love to see that happen...only problem is...there will always be those people who will either be intimidated or reject such altruistic experience...though a global trip might definitely bring that number of people into a much smaller minority.  :smile:

Love & Light,

Boppity 

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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Tonearm]
    #1485839 - 04/23/03 11:09 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

>>Also, in a review of "Zig Zag Zen" the writer closes with the following:

I have that book on my wishlist over at Amazon.com. I'll definitely pick it up next month.

My point was that while psychedelics can definitely teach us things about our mind, it is up to us to act upon those lessons and make the permanent changes in our behaviors to reach enlightenment. I can only speak for myself but in my experiences so far...psychedelics have only served as tools to help my sober meditations advance further.

Love & Light,

Boppity

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OfflineMike Elium
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1487075 - 04/23/03 05:46 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with everybody's comments. I just felt compelled to add some thoughts I have had, off and on.

Any tool can be used correctly, or abused. It's all what you do with it. This holds true of tools that have the potential to lead you to an expanded viewpoint or reality

Years ago I had a GF who was so into transcendental meditation that she lost sight of applying it to the goal of enlightenment, and TM became the focus itself.... like some "religious" fanatics who cease to be truly religious. Instead of making her a better person, she was solely and selfishly fanatical about the practice itself, often to the detriment of those around her.

Similarly, some people take psychedelics to just get as out of their mind as possible .....i.e., wasted. After the experience, they can be the same unenlightened assholes as before it. I remember reading a story recounted by a tripped-out guy who accidentally caused someone else nearby a physical injury while tripping, but didn't care, never helped the person, just kept on rockin'. Intuitively, that does not seem to be enlightened.....we've all seen drunks behave this way.

From a meditative viewpoint, a step leading to enlightenment is that moment when your self is suspended, and the tiny voice that is always talking to you inside your head stops, leaving you with great clarity.....as Buddhist monks say, ultimately, the Clear Light. The psychedelic enlightenment is similar, to suspend the sense of self and see a greater picture of reality.....though it is a somewhat more "violent" approach than pure unaided and calmer meditation. For some reason, though, in either case, this suspension of self and view of a wider reality produces an unparalleled pleasureful feeling......you know.... All is One.....the feeling that we are part of a far greater whole.

Once we have achieved these glimpses into a greater reality, it seems to me that true enlightenment means that you would use this greater awareness to make the world somehow a better place (geeeeez, I sound like a freakin' MISS AMERICA CONTESTANT !!!!). But I do mean it, because achieving this only for your own pleasure and not applying it to the benefit of others seems to me to be, in the end, somewhat selfish, even wasteful.



--------------------
your inside is out, and your outside is in.

Edited by Mike Elium (04/25/03 07:04 PM)

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OfflineAbFab
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Mike Elium]
    #1487102 - 04/23/03 05:57 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i don't know if i would call the feeling that i get "enlightenment", i prefer the term clarity. it's like i am suddenly in a state that i am able to really pay attention to my thoughts and really listen to myself. i don't feel as enlightened as i do aware. Maybe some people just arent ready to be truly aware of the world around them, as for me, i love the clarity.


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The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when your uncool.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1487188 - 04/23/03 06:35 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I always viewed the mushroom as turning off certain filters in the brain. That is why the walls can move and breath, colors can shift, sounds can become larger, and all of the other neat effects. The filters that our mind uses to define reality are loosened while we trip. For some people, the new perspective changes the way they experience life. For others, it is just a cool feeling to enjoy at the next party.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinef8L
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Seuss]
    #1487367 - 04/23/03 08:02 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I would have to disagree with Boppity604

Quote:


They CAN help you gain insight to the nature of consciousness itself...but enlightenment is not a dose or induced experience





I find this a very interesting subject. You noted, "It is up to the individual to meditate and practice Dharma." I suggest you read the book Rational Mysticism . The book explains how spiritual experiences obtained through meditation in the brain (namely, the frontal lobe) are similiar to those changes during psychedlic use. The book is extremely well written and insightful... Everyone should check it out.

Edited by f8L (04/23/03 08:04 PM)

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Offlinekaptain_karma
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: f8L]
    #1487403 - 04/23/03 08:17 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I think shrooms give people a new way of looking at the world. This alone does not lead to enlightenment, but learning to see the world from different and new perspectives definitely probably doesn't hurt on the road to enlightenment. Shrooms also provide a feeling awe at being connected to the universe. For me at least, that has been an enlightening experience.
So to put it shortly, shrooms won't bring about enlightenment, but they can be a useful tool in searching for enlightenment.

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OfflineVats of Blood
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: kaptain_karma]
    #1488947 - 04/24/03 10:11 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i agree with peruvian spark about psychedelics only showing you the door to enlightenment. when i tripped with my friend whos a vegan, he completely convinced me to become a vegetarian. the shrooms arent going to make me a vegetarian, but they did make me realize that i dont want to eat meat anymore. now its just up to me to put forth the work to actually stop eating meat.


--------------------

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Offlinetheotherpnut
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1490986 - 04/24/03 08:06 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

I've put much thought into this topic. And I have to say I have many opinions on it. Two stand out, one has already been drawn out in this thread. The other main opinion I have is that there is an infinite amount of perceivable phenomena in nature, and we humans have a filter which only allows us to see things that are "important" to us, and the rest doesn't get noticed, or gets ground down in familiarity. This filter and your ego mutually construct and define one another. When ingesting a mind altering substance your "filter" is changed and different parts of the infinite are noticed. When your filter gets changed so much your ego has nothing to define it, resulting in ego loss. This is like a baby experiencing a new filter, but can you call it enlightenment? I don't think so,  I understand that through enlightenment all attachments to and by your ego are severed. In experiencing  a new filter you have no time to define your ego nor make attachments to the new phenomona. In both mindsets you need to overturn the part of "you" that wants to connect "itself" to phenomena. Under the influence of psychedelic drugs it is harder to overturn this mechanism as it has no distinguishable manifestations, if you went long enough in this new mind set a new ego would form and the process of enlightenment could proceed again. So in conclusion this theory says that the psychedelic expierience is just a facade of true enlighentment.  Did that make any sense? :confused:
 

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Offlinedomite
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: theotherpnut]
    #1491679 - 04/25/03 12:20 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

i like waht the previous poster just said...

but i still kind of disagree...

i put it like this: psycadelics are the telescope with wich you can view truth, but meditation is the pathway that takes you there.

corny, i know, but it sums up my beliefs on the subject.

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OfflineSombie
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #1492028 - 04/25/03 03:16 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

When you trip, I feel that you are simply thinking in a completely diffrent and new way, without the outside influences you get when in the sober state of mind.

I think of tripping as a boost, but it is most important to continue on this path when sober.

When you trip your mind is flooded with so much information that you can not handle it all, it is very simular to being a newborn baby. That, added with the mind-fuck that acid gives (sorry, I haven't tried shrooms yet, only acid) means your going to have some FUCKED UP ideas when your tripping.

once you come down, it is important to continue thinking about life, for me I have noticed that I have made the most progress the few days following my trips.



So to sum up: yes psychedellics can help, but you have to think while your sober as well.


--------------------
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

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OfflineTonearm
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Sombie]
    #1493928 - 04/25/03 04:32 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Sombie- For me it seems like NOT thinking is the real key. I'm doing my best to go beyond language and thought and try to just "be" with a blank mind instead. Does anyone agree?


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http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm

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Offlinetheotherpnut
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Tonearm]
    #1494028 - 04/25/03 05:10 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Exactly Tonearm, that is what I long to do and hopefully where my practice is taking me. I was going to add at the end of my last post that pondering this question was kind of beside the point, and we should just get on with it. But that comment might have also been beside the point. The only advice I have found helpful is not to think about stopping thinking, and not to cling to or reject any thoughts but just be aware of them.

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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Tonearm] * 1
    #1494102 - 04/25/03 06:06 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Tonearm: It's not a blank mind, it's a pure mind. Freed from the delusions of ego and illusions. To be able to see things for what the truly are, and not what our superstitious mind thinks they are.

Love & Light,

Bop

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Offlinesoakked
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #16445442 - 06/27/12 01:44 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I can only speak of one experience that I've had on mushrooms (hard to find here) and it definitely changed me from borderline Atheist to semi- spiritual Agnostic. Did it give me enlightment? I wouldn't say, but it most certainly expanded my awareness and "broke" me out of the matrix for a few days.

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OfflineTheall
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #16446406 - 06/27/12 05:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

soakked said:
I can only speak of one experience that I've had on mushrooms (hard to find here) and it definitely changed me from borderline Atheist to semi- spiritual Agnostic. Did it give me enlightment? I wouldn't say, but it most certainly expanded my awareness and "broke" me out of the matrix for a few days.




Maybe we should define enlightment first.

I believe its not only understanding that we are literally all one, but truly integrating it and acting on it as the most fundamental truth. IE you treat others literally as if they are you, because they are.  Not sure if anyone has done this.. maybe Ramana Maharshi?

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Offlinefatal222316
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Theall]
    #16446545 - 06/27/12 05:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I think defining enlightenment would be a good way to start yes because I would not know it if it smacked me in the face.  When I am on shrooms everything is beautiful and terrifying at the same time I don't think this is enlightenment.  I think you get a glimpse of the infinite universe from a perspective we humans can only see and it might be almost enlightenment.
  I also agree we must take these feelings mainly of love and joy and beauty from these experiences and try to live the fullest in our lives with theses powerful experiences in mind. Probably not so much the terrifying part though haha, but then again that is part of life too. It is just so hard to describe what is shown behind that curtain no one else sees, and society dismisses you as a stoner if you speak of it,  I absolutely hate this bunch of lambs. Its like we know this awesome secret and no one wants to hear it, but if they did there jaw would drop I have never used shrooms as a party drug, I don't even like taking them in a way but I have to for some reason weird.


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"Who says upright Ape's should know the secrets of the Universe"--Terrance McKenna

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OfflineBeluga
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Boppity604] * 1
    #28321740 - 05/16/23 09:41 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Lol.  “Samasaric existence” is all that matters, and all that is “real.”  Without it, we are just unified all-consciousness in the void, which is same as saying we are nothing, and experience nothing.  That is quite boring, so as God, we like to create worlds to play games in.  Sometimes we do it for challenge, sometimes we do it to experience love, achievement, friendship, ect., and sometimes we do it to fuck, do drugs and have a good time.  All the base and higher pleasures of Maya that you eastern mystic types shit on are actually the only thing God has of any interest or value.  Once you obtain your unattached “enlightenment,” what then?  You will dissolve into Nirvana, sitting around in a lotus position, not giving a shit about anything forever?  Lol.  Of course not.  After a while you will want to love, hate, achieve, suffer, make friends, destroy enemies, achieve power, and have sex.  Then you will enter “Maya” again.  It’s amazing to me that the Eastern types think this place is some sort of accident.  It’s not an accident at all.  The creator wants to create, differentiate, and experience, not just sit around all the time feeling “at One.”

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OfflineBeluga
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Theall]
    #28321756 - 05/16/23 09:53 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Why do you need to act on it as the “fundamental truth?”  We are all One.  But we differentiated to NOT be One.  Love some, hate others.  Have competitors and enemies, and try to destroy them.  Enjoy the game.  That’s is what we are here for.  We are here to play games, which requires differentiation and limitation.  We can go back to Oneness at any time.  We are here to experience the opposite of that because sometimes the pain of differentiation is better than the boredom of “Oneness.”  Stop taking yourselves so seriously.

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Beluga]
    #28321884 - 05/16/23 11:44 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

It seems to me that boredom could be well described as contradiction, and unity, being without contradiction.

Unity, or its process, also could be described as expansion or extension. Therefore, warning against unity is that against extension of knowledge, sense, power, beauty, bliss, lest one be bored.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: syncro]
    #28321911 - 05/16/23 12:12 PM (10 months, 6 days ago)

understanding illusion is an important thing


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28321927 - 05/16/23 12:25 PM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

illusion and imagination
AI

Illusion and imagination are two concepts that are closely related but have distinct meanings.

Illusion refers to a perception or interpretation of something that deviates from reality or is deceptive in nature. It involves a misinterpretation or distortion of sensory information, leading to a false perception or understanding of the world around us. Illusions can occur in various forms, such as optical illusions, where our visual system misinterprets the incoming stimuli, or cognitive illusions, where our thinking processes and beliefs lead us to false conclusions. Illusions can be created intentionally, such as in magic tricks or stage performances, or they can be unintentional and a result of how our brains process information.

Imagination, on the other hand, refers to the ability to create mental images, ideas, or concepts that are not present in our immediate sensory experience. It involves the capacity to form new ideas, visualize scenarios, and generate possibilities that go beyond what is directly perceived. Imagination allows us to think creatively, solve problems, and envision alternative realities. It plays a vital role in artistic expression, storytelling, innovation, and daydreaming. Imagination can be influenced by our experiences, emotions, and cognitive processes, and it often involves combining existing knowledge and elements in novel and imaginative ways.

While illusions involve perceiving something inaccurately or differently from reality, imagination involves creating something new and distinct from the present reality. Illusions can sometimes trigger or stimulate the imagination, as they challenge our understanding and perception of the world, leading us to explore alternative possibilities or explanations.

In summary, illusions are deceptive perceptions or interpretations that deviate from reality, while imagination is the creative ability to generate new ideas and mental images beyond the confines of the immediate sensory experience. Both concepts contribute to our understanding of perception, cognition, and our capacity for creative thinking.



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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox] * 1
    #28322370 - 05/16/23 07:36 PM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Psychedelics are psychological amplifiers, so it's going to be a unique experience for every person, because each person's mind is unique. So the amplification of that mind is also unique. For some people, it would be unpleasant, no doubt. It depends on the mind, and the contents of the mind. Set and setting.

I dislike terms like enlightenment. It's mainly used as a strange sort of marketing by self proclaimed gurus and people with massive egos who in reality are not only no better than you or I, but actively worse, being conmen and all. The term and word itself is utterly useless, and actively bad.

If you want something to strive for, instead of striving for enlightenment, how about striving for becoming a better person and improving your life?

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: nooneman]
    #28322552 - 05/16/23 09:53 PM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
If you want something to strive for, instead of striving for enlightenment, how about striving for becoming a better person and improving your life?




Also by doing this, you can improve the lives of those around you too, through positive unselfish actions.

I am with you on this. Be a better person today than you were yesterday. It is not a one and done deal either, it is something that needs to be worked on consistently over a life time. Just like being physically fit and healthy, you need to form positive habits and use some critical thinking skills to reassess were you are at on the journey.

Edited by Kiwi89 (05/16/23 09:54 PM)

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Kiwi89] * 2
    #28322623 - 05/16/23 11:36 PM (10 months, 6 days ago)

I would not completely discount enlightenment.
Finding the way is different for each and all of us.

Mushrooms can certainly help
anything can be of use if a person is oriented towards enlightenment.

flush toilets are also enlightening, but it is not the same.


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28322670 - 05/17/23 01:09 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Hi,
Sort of on this topic regarding what people have said about having a pure/blank mind.
Has anyone here been able to do yoga (specifically yin) during a trip?
I find that can give me a blank mind sober but I just think it'd be tough mid trip not to get distracted?
Might try it on Saturday. Having a mushroom day with friends. I'll pretend I'm an instructor lol

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: ellamush]
    #28322712 - 05/17/23 02:15 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

i tend to do rotary movements with my hips and all kinds of stretching with my limbs on mushrooms

i think mushrooms bring about insights but not necessarily enlightenment, what is that even...


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: epilectric]
    #28322741 - 05/17/23 03:50 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Can one even improve themselves?

Who's the one improving and who's the one that needs improved?

Do you take your improved self and apply it to your old self? At what point does improvement occur?

I agree with RGV on enlightenment :awesomenod:


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54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #28322792 - 05/17/23 05:37 AM (10 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
Can one even improve themselves?

Who's the one improving and who's the one that needs improved?

Do you take your improved self and apply it to your old self? At what point does improvement occur?

I agree with RGV on enlightenment :awesomenod:




Yes, you can improve yourself. In that, you can choose a course of action that may lead to a better "self" in the future, instead of a course of action that does not (however you define "better"). The only way I see to disagree would be to deny that we have any agency to choose a course of action. the "who" really just confuses things.

And as for enlightenment, I think it's weird to say whether drugs can or can not help get you there, in the same way that I think its weird to say that anything, say exercise, could help you get there. It might? I mean yoga seems like a good thing. it might not though? Is it statistically likely to help? we don't have any good data to work with, so... maybe? If you're looking for advice, I don't think there are many (any??) people qualified to give an answer, especially not random internet people.

To put it another way, I don't think drugs are some magical special thing in the universe. Drugs are just as much a part of our physical existence as yoga, meditation, and prayer. And while their immediate effects may be temporary... so are yoga, meditation, and prayer. In fact, everything changes over a long enough time interval.


(also, why are we all okay with this 20yr thread, that was already zombified 10yrs ago? poor thing! it's lived a good life!)


--------------------
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: ellamush]
    #28324746 - 05/18/23 12:35 PM (10 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
...
I agree with RGV on enlightenment :awesomenod:



yes, flush toilets have raised the bar in the civilized world a great deal.

@ellamush
when I am really stoned (weed or lysergamide or salvia mostly) every position is yoga.


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28324784 - 05/18/23 01:06 PM (10 months, 4 days ago)

I don't think shrooms bring enlightenment. If you want to be enlightened then study Buddhism. Meditate. The only time I have been 'enlightened' by a drug, it was a particularly strong LSD trip, and I went through an ego loss experience. I was able to step outside myself and examine dispassionately who I was, and make decisions to change.

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Calendral]
    #28324790 - 05/18/23 01:10 PM (10 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Calendral said:
I don't think shrooms bring enlightenment. If you want to be enlightened then study Buddhism. Meditate. The only time I have been 'enlightened' by a drug, it was a particularly strong LSD trip, and I went through an ego loss experience. I was able to step outside myself and examine dispassionately who I was, and make decisions to change.



very nice, but I don't exactly see what ego loss has to do with it.
change, yes, delusion yes, good hearted-ness yes


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: theotherpnut]
    #28325123 - 05/18/23 04:32 PM (10 months, 4 days ago)

They treated shrooms like a game so thats what they got outta it. That or it scared them and revealed things to them they weren't wanting to be revealed. Some people are ignorantly bliss and don't want anything to do with enlightenment lol. Why do you think alcohol is so popular? Its the complete opposite, it makes you not have to introspect or think deep about anything.

Edited by surrealmoose (05/18/23 04:32 PM)

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: surrealmoose]
    #28325405 - 05/18/23 08:04 PM (10 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

surrealmoose said:
Why do you think alcohol is so popular? Its the complete opposite, it makes you not have to introspect or think deep about anything.




Charles Bukowski
Edgar Allan Poe
F. Scott Fitzgerald
James Joyce
Dorothy Parker
Jack Kerouac
William Faulkner
Truman Capote
Ernest Hemingway...

I have to say that I have heard some of the most absurd shit from people high on mushrooms believing their own bullshit. Psychedelics can make certain people delusional, unfortunately they can make it easy to believe what feels good and inhibit critical thinking.

Edit: Not meaning that alcohol is good for the mind, just that it is not a mental barrier for some. 

Edited by Kiwi89 (05/18/23 08:08 PM)

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: thelox]
    #28325717 - 05/19/23 02:12 AM (10 months, 4 days ago)

This is a very old thread, but I'll say something.

Enlightenment means analytically "being in the light." To be enlightened... But by which light?

Then you see there are many different lights, and some of the lights are little flickerings, which are usually ones that are wired to other ones wired to other ones and so forth. By the time the chain reaches them the energy output is not as strong.

I think "enlightenment" is outdated. To say it is outdated however is not to say it is wrong, or that being contemporary is immediately better. No, I think it begs the platonic question... Which light? How is it? Let's describe its forms and then categorize... etc. etc. And it's all downhill from there.

Christopher Hitchens remarked that Aristotle had drank heavily, although I don't know where he cites this specifically.

I think mushrooms can facilitate something like what we would call 'enlightenment' but... it's really a literal thing that mushrooms do with light, specifically phosphenes, the little lights that dance around when you close your eyes to sleep, and then those are the same lights that make geometrical patterns and.. other interesting imagery.. when you take psychedelics and look into darkness, whether with your eyes closed, or in a dark room, etc. Etc.

These lights are generated by your own eyes, and the occipital cortex processes the sensory data in such a way, that it is not only a process that creates the images... but the very operation of the brain projected onto the darkness as a screen.

You can see your memories projected onto this screen. You can see all kinds of things. And even become a part of the screen and seemingly be interconnections themselves in the midst of the experience. There is a reconfiguration that can happen if you can maintain yourself and know you are safe. This is the most important thing. How I have always done this is knowing exactly the effects of how much I am doing and whatever it is. Knowing the science and history around certain things can provide a safe backdrop for the experience, where whatever strange or disconcerting things you may encounter will be easier to cast aside and think through. There has to be something to ground you, and I think, really, that is love and a good-heartedness, and that is a recognition of humanity and its history. It is a spiritual thing, and when people run from the spiritual aspect of it, they find difficulties. It is exactly what Carl Jung noticed in his patients. He found that many of them were reluctant to tell him directly about what their real spiritual beliefs were. And he found that this is central to people. And this is part of why Carl Jung endeavored in the direction he did. He was, you can say, reaching for Enlightenment. He painted a large book of his dreams, and he wanted to document what the human is, and this is The Red Book. This is Carl Jung's spirituality painted onto those pages because he had to for his own sake, regardless of whether it can be logically explained. Truths may not have an explanation that gives any assurance, but this doesn't mean they should be denied.
The debate between Freud and Jung is extensive. I side mostly with Freud, but that is another subject.

Sartre criticized "being an intellectual." He said it was outdated and bourgeois. I think it is the same thing with us.

Michel Foucault, after taking LSD in California, said he burned his first few books because he thought it was not right at all. And he changed his entire outlook. He says in an interview... Well.. He asks the question "What is life before the experience of certain drugs versus after... This is not a marginal question... This is central. This cannot be excluded, the experiences of certain drugs, and how they can subsequently make you see things very differently." I am paraphrasing here.

Enlightenment has this sense of superiority to it. I think Cicero puts the subject how it ought to actually be put... in De Officiis

Quote:

Who kindly sets a wand'rer on his way
Does e'en as if he lit another's lamp by his:
No less shines his, when he his friend's hath lit.”

In this example he effectively teaches us all to bestow even upon a stranger what it costs us nothing to give. On this principle we have the following maxims: Deny no one the water that flows by; Let anyone who will take fire from our fire;
Honest counsel give to one who is in doubt; for such acts are useful to the recipient and cause the giver no loss. We should, therefore, adopt these principles and always be contributing something to the common weal. But since the resources of individuals are limited and the number of the needy is infinite, this spirit of universal liberality must be regulated according to that test of Ennius—“No less shines his” —in order that we may continue to have the means for being generous to our friends.




I think everyone has a light to share, and I think we should all believe in our inner lights. We are actually in a real sense made of light... It is cliché at this point, but that always fascinated me.

In order to see the light sometimes another light has to come and allow you to clean out the cobwebs and remove the slime that covers them, or to be able to make the appropriate repairs.

Mushrooms themselves are a tool. They are a spiritual medicine. I call it myself, because I'm an odd person, eccentric or whatever you want to call it
MEDICAMENTVM SANCTVM
Sacred remedy

I think we do need these sorts of things to keep us from ossifying in our associations in the world, which can lead us down rabbit holes where we feel we cannot mentally escape it, because we lack the sufficient neurological situation to make different connections in a dramatic way. This is what psychedelics do. If one can understand the experience, which entails doing one's own research and 'looking into themselves' then they will find all the answers they need. And then they may see the real wisdom in things like "know thyself", or many other philosophical wisdoms psychedelic (for lack of better words) people throughout the ages have written.


--------------------
I the music, not the bling
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𝕴𝖓 𝖓𝖔𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊 𝖇𝖔𝖓𝖎 𝖕𝖊𝖘𝖘𝖎𝖒𝖎 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖔𝖗𝖚𝖒 𝖋𝖎𝖚𝖓𝖙.
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Blue_Lux]
    #28325724 - 05/19/23 02:37 AM (10 months, 4 days ago)

it's not enlightened to say enlightenment is outdated,

but I agree it means in the light to some extent, and that is about as physical as a mental thing can be, mostly in the sense that each thing may be seen in its own light, including the body of the viewer, and the mind of the reader.


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28325760 - 05/19/23 04:14 AM (10 months, 4 days ago)

To be in the light is to try to be a mirror, like Lucretius shows us in De Natura Deorum

Quote:

et quasi multa brevi spatio summittere debet lumina sol, ut perpetuo sint omnia plena,
sic ab rebus item simili ratione necessest
temporis in puncto rerum simulacra ferantur
multa modis multis in cunctas undique partis;
quandoquidem speculum quo cumque obvertimus oris,
res ibi respondent simili forma atque colore.

Also like the sun must be emitting many lights in short space in order that it may perpetually be full in all respects: in this way, likewise; in a similar manner it is necessary that many images of matters, in having been affected, may be on occasion carried from things by many measures produced from every side, since by which at any time when the sun rises we direct against a mirror, the matters respond with similar form and color.




(transl. by me)

Edited by Blue_Lux (05/19/23 04:30 AM)

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Blue_Lux] * 1
    #28325819 - 05/19/23 05:46 AM (10 months, 4 days ago)

great sounding translation of a very layered and ramified shining moment in the stream


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28326234 - 05/19/23 12:46 PM (10 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

@ellamush
when I am really stoned (weed or lysergamide or salvia mostly) every position is yoga.




Nice... I had a bag of weak salvia leaves which i smoked in a pipe occasionally. Maybe want to get some again because although it does feel strange, it's still worthwile. After all it involves an opioid receptor

had a "breakthrough" with 15x etract via bong with 16 :laugh: i thought the room is a book page that i have to flip so the next person can use the bong...


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Edited by epilectric (05/19/23 12:53 PM)

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Calendral]
    #28326243 - 05/19/23 12:50 PM (10 months, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Calendral said:
I don't think shrooms bring enlightenment. If you want to be enlightened then study Buddhism. Meditate. The only time I have been 'enlightened' by a drug, it was a particularly strong LSD trip, and I went through an ego loss experience. I was able to step outside myself and examine dispassionately who I was, and make decisions to change.




i agree... psychedelics provide insights and show us the way.. but that way involves a lot of mindfulness practice (which they can certainly aid but it's not the be all end all)


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Edited by epilectric (05/19/23 12:52 PM)

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: epilectric] * 2
    #28327106 - 05/20/23 04:10 AM (10 months, 3 days ago)

I would say the term enlightenment is a very loose term and doesn't really mean anything in and of itself.

Psychedelics or rather all psychoactive substances might change how you see things - but I would say every substance is to some degree psychoactive.

There's no real goal here. Let's say you take shrooms and you think you've figured it all out - you now know all truth of the entirety of the cosmos. And then the next day you take a bigger dose and now you thought you knew the truth to everything but this time you really know the truth.

And all of this raises some concerns whether there's truth at all. But even the notion of having or not having truth is just some kind of loose concept which is easily shattered by for example a psychedelic experience.

Anyways I'm sort of derailing here I guess. Some say Psychedelics are not for everyone and that might be true in some sense. But I also think that psychedelics can amplify emotions that have already been there. So I guess when someone is terrified of a shroom trip for example either the dose was way to high or they are not willing to deal with some aspect of themselves - which the experience is - it's always some aspect of your self.

And then again is this merely a simplified version of which could happen. Everyone goes through some individual experience with degrees of complexity that you cannot imagine.

Some will say "I hate shrooms I will never do it again." Some will say "I didn't really feel much - I dunno, it's not for me" and then never touch it again. Some might have a blast the first time and then the second time have a weird of bad experience. Or some might be prejudiced initially and not touch drugs because of how their parents raised them or simply because of lack of curiosity or courage or because of some kind of fear to be punished by law or by god for taking drugs. Who knows what people go through it's all very, very uncertain.

Edited by HugeShroom (05/20/23 04:11 AM)

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OfflineShiroiTora
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: HugeShroom] * 1
    #28327133 - 05/20/23 05:24 AM (10 months, 3 days ago)

I wouldn't say enlightenment but Terence McKenna once put it that they "connect us up to the chakras of nature". That's very pretty and all and I don't exactly agree with that either, but both mushrooms and cactus have connected me with something eternal which is felt to be significant.

It existed before language and is therefore incredibly hard to translate into language, but it is the thing that makes plants grow, it is the thing that makes them never give up. It is the reason a whole swarm of birds can turn direction and none will bump into each other or go the wrong way.

The closest word would probably be "the dao", but somehow that doesn't do it justice either. I feel like all the words, and especially " enlightenment " is a reduction of what these plants brought us in the first place. I think we still need a term for what exactly these things do to us, as enlightenment has sort of an intellectual base, and I don't think this is quite the same, psychedelics feel more like they push one toward survival, or maturity(initiation ceremonies come to mind).

"The enlightenment", historically speaking, already belongs to caffeine. We need a new badass term for whatever the fuck is about to happen when society finally accepts psychedelics like they did caffeine in the 1700s:lol:

Edited by ShiroiTora (05/20/23 05:34 AM)

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: ShiroiTora]
    #28327192 - 05/20/23 06:47 AM (10 months, 2 days ago)

very well put :sun:


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: ShiroiTora]
    #28327204 - 05/20/23 06:56 AM (10 months, 2 days ago)

I feel like all the words, and especially " enlightenment " is a reduction

This.

No words really do justice to any experience imo.

I think we still need a term for what exactly these things do to us, as enlightenment has sort of an intellectual base

Yes, without language humans couldn't find any consensus. And also The term enlightenment has some sort of connotation or almost stigma of "Hippie bullshit" attached to it but isn't really thought through carefully by most people. I personally have never really talked about this besides with a dude who is also into that stuff.

I think im a little worried to talk about this with people who I intuitively believe to not having to do anything with this. I find it quite interesting that the term enlightenment is associated with shrooms and psychedelics. I also think lots of people still don't associate lsd or shrooms with enlightenment.

But i would say most of the people here do. Am I wrong?

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28327534 - 05/20/23 12:39 PM (10 months, 2 days ago)

Ego loss allows you to make a dispassionate analysis of who you really are, without the baggage of emotions and ego. It can be frightening if you don't understand what's happening. In my experience, it's rare.

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Calendral]
    #28327632 - 05/20/23 02:12 PM (10 months, 2 days ago)

I think psychedelics do help get us closer to enlightenment.

It is strange how all cultures use the word light to explain piercing the veil. "I saw the light, I was blinded by the light, my mind was illuminated, go towards the light, etc." God and Angels and aliens are always in a lot of light or thunderbolts or sun rays. The breaking of the dawn is obviously a new day. Sun worshipers, etc. So it might be a paradox to study the etymologies of some words like enlightenment. The word is a placeholder for piercing the veil. To search for meaning in the etymology might be counterintuitive. But I agree we do need a stricter language and vocabulary if we ever wish to communicate effectively in this world.

I agree with the quotes in the original post here from 20 years ago. When I do 3 to 8 grams of Penis Envy sometimes I see the world is a game and other fucked up shit I would rather not see and it scares me and bums me out.

There are many types of users and forum posters. Some people take psychedelics to party. They get hit by random unintentional episodes of enlightenment. Others are very focused on therapeutic or meditation intentions and these users are much more likely to transcend or find meaning. It is all about set and setting and recent exposures to video or reading material which gets amplified in the trip. So we would have to run strict experiments and allow for all these variables to study how psychedelics bring possible enlightenment.

For myself I noticed I was already a seeker so maybe I twist my experiences into transcendent episodes. For myself I noticed I was judgmental prior to my usage and would not and could not read certain books or watch certain documentaries because I thought it was woo woo bullshit. After psychedelics I  am motivated to read these books and watch these films and I can really absorb the lessons in them. Psychedelics broadened my horizons. Allowing this material into my sober life has pushed me closer to enlightenment.

Maybe the buddhas out there and the bodhisattvas naturally find psychedelics by some cosmic karma order. There is no free will.

Edited by Soul Flight (05/21/23 08:34 AM)

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Offlinedarkcreature
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Beluga]
    #28327645 - 05/20/23 02:26 PM (10 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Beluga said:
Lol.  “Samasaric existence” is all that matters, and all that is “real.”  Without it, we are just unified all-consciousness in the void, which is same as saying we are nothing, and experience nothing.  That is quite boring, so as God, we like to create worlds to play games in.  Sometimes we do it for challenge, sometimes we do it to experience love, achievement, friendship, ect., and sometimes we do it to fuck, do drugs and have a good time.  All the base and higher pleasures of Maya that you eastern mystic types shit on are actually the only thing God has of any interest or value.  Once you obtain your unattached “enlightenment,” what then?  You will dissolve into Nirvana, sitting around in a lotus position, not giving a shit about anything forever?  Lol.  Of course not.  After a while you will want to love, hate, achieve, suffer, make friends, destroy enemies, achieve power, and have sex.  Then you will enter “Maya” again.  It’s amazing to me that the Eastern types think this place is some sort of accident.  It’s not an accident at all.  The creator wants to create, differentiate, and experience, not just sit around all the time feeling “at One.”





well said, and another angle to it is that in a short while we will all die anyway, so it's quite good opportunity to break free of Maya without trying to hack it from the wrong side of the matrix. I have yet to come across convincing explanation from mystics why in the face of death and impermanence trying to attain liberation even makes sense (discounting answers hinged on religious bullshit concepts like karma)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Calendral]
    #28327702 - 05/20/23 03:33 PM (10 months, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Calendral said:
Ego loss allows you to make a dispassionate analysis of who you really are, without the baggage of emotions and ego. It can be frightening if you don't understand what's happening. In my experience, it's rare.



I would call it perspective and detachment. Maybe even disentangled composure.

Otherwise what is ego? Iykwim...


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28328209 - 05/21/23 12:27 AM (10 months, 2 days ago)

I think enlightenment is found by people who like to look to be enlightened.

Maybe they are looking for the resolution to something they feel is eluding them.

Maybe they just thirst for novelty.

Maybe they are just lost in their own illusions of reality and feel like there is some truth out there that will help them find there way out of the chaos and confusion of their own minds.

Who the fuck can say what enlightenment is,  or what to do with it if they find it?

Maybe it's overrated anyway.

But if the search for enlightenment is the search for the unknown,  then those who find value in the searching, will also find enlightenment in the journey,  and those who don't take pleasure in the finding, won't feel enlightened having had the existence.

The value of the mushroom is going to depend upon how much you value what you discover.

Otherwise,  you are just getting high.

What do you gain by finding the ending to your searching?

It's just the end of an ending. Enlightenment comes in finding a new beginning at the end of your searching.

Some people don't feel the need to do anything with what they discover with mushrooms,  so to them,  enlightenment doesn't lay along the same path as the mushroom. To them,  it's just a scenic detour on the way to where they were going regardless.

I think there are endless places to go from the place the mushrooms take you. But do any of those places end in enlightenment?

I don't know. They are endless,  so it'll take a while to find out.

I think finding enlightenment from mushrooms just means you found the end, and beginning,  and realize that you should probably go back and take a better look at everything in between that you never realized was so much more important.


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Those ephemeral spasms of infinity, in suspended animation, born across a boundless ether of existential misery aloft a revelry (of awe) for the abhorrently sublime.

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Sub-Easy] * 1
    #28328475 - 05/21/23 08:36 AM (10 months, 1 day ago)

I don't know about enlightenment but I've definitely had some mystical life changing experiences on shrooms and lsd. When I've taken doses high enough to bring me to ego loss and can view myself with total objectivity. I don't look at any trip like a drug to get high, I look at it as a tool to bring about a totally different window of perception and understanding.

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Sub-Easy]
    #28328492 - 05/21/23 08:48 AM (10 months, 1 day ago)

I just wanted to say thank you and express my gratitude for everyone who posted on this thread. All your thoughts are wonderful and helpful to me.

Archaic man gathered around the campfire or worshiped the sun and the community exchanged ideas and the social network was stronger than the individual man. Community was a new technology to take a big leap forward in some momentum or "progress." And maybe psychedelics also were a technology for archaic man. And here we are. We are a bunch of monkeys in 2023 staring at our screens which have replaced fire and the sun. We have a virtual community.

Bragging about enlightenment and inflating our own ego is a pitfall we can fall into. But mushrooms seem to help us pierce the veil or walk out of Plato's cave or get a quick glimpse of enlightenment. It is weird to think maybe enlightenment is a pitfall in itself. Perhaps we are meant to live this life to the fullest inside the veil. Death will return us to the unity? Maybe enlightenment is a glitch in the matrix. My psychedelic use has benefited me and I live a richer more well informed life post-psychedelics. Enlightenment seems to be a very human experience recorded in all cultures from the dawn of time.

Edited by Soul Flight (05/21/23 08:49 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: Soul Flight] * 1
    #28329345 - 05/21/23 11:03 PM (10 months, 1 day ago)

what about relative enlightenment, like the dimmer switch


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: darkcreature]
    #28333146 - 05/24/23 07:08 PM (9 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

darkcreature said:
Quote:

Beluga said:
Lol.  “Samasaric existence” is all that matters, and all that is “real.”  Without it, we are just unified all-consciousness in the void, which is same as saying we are nothing, and experience nothing.  That is quite boring, so as God, we like to create worlds to play games in.  Sometimes we do it for challenge, sometimes we do it to experience love, achievement, friendship, ect., and sometimes we do it to fuck, do drugs and have a good time.  All the base and higher pleasures of Maya that you eastern mystic types shit on are actually the only thing God has of any interest or value.  Once you obtain your unattached “enlightenment,” what then?  You will dissolve into Nirvana, sitting around in a lotus position, not giving a shit about anything forever?  Lol.  Of course not.  After a while you will want to love, hate, achieve, suffer, make friends, destroy enemies, achieve power, and have sex.  Then you will enter “Maya” again.  It’s amazing to me that the Eastern types think this place is some sort of accident.  It’s not an accident at all.  The creator wants to create, differentiate, and experience, not just sit around all the time feeling “at One.”





well said, and another angle to it is that in a short while we will all die anyway, so it's quite good opportunity to break free of Maya without trying to hack it from the wrong side of the matrix. I have yet to come across convincing explanation from mystics why in the face of death and impermanence trying to attain liberation even makes sense (discounting answers hinged on religious bullshit concepts like karma)




For one, levels of meditation, samadhis, aren't attained typically without long practice. The 'skill' would be like any other, needing development to place higher.

Most of what else I could think to say would be by what you said likely BS, but it's said that the moment of passing is very important, and everything can be attained there with appropriate mind, so in a sense, for some, all of life's training is for that moment.

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: syncro]
    #28333218 - 05/24/23 07:50 PM (9 months, 29 days ago)

I question what is said about the moment of passing, and won't be able to share any findings as with others .

Unfortunately NDE's are not credible proofs of anything other than a state of mind in unusual circumstances.


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28333364 - 05/24/23 09:44 PM (9 months, 29 days ago)

It's what I think may be agreeable among yogis, the principle also seen in the Tibetan Book of the Dead, etc.

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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: syncro] * 1
    #28333525 - 05/25/23 02:20 AM (9 months, 29 days ago)

agreeable for the reason of it being an agreeable fantasy for 3000 years or more.

critical thinking, or groking, or experiencing, or tripping with your own eyes open should not make you believe the agreeable fantasies just because others have agreed to believe without any proof of any kind.

to me it is just more egoic conceptions


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Re: DO you think shrooms bring about enlightenment? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28333639 - 05/25/23 05:44 AM (9 months, 29 days ago)

The yogas, the body/mind responds and behaves in ways that would give personal evidence. We know that, the fruit of yogas, meditation, psychs. None of us can prove a side to another. So it's just looking at ideas.

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