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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
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It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan.
#14843307 - 07/29/11 11:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails. Yet clearly since the party claiming this is a human being or collection of them, then the claim collapses on itself.
It is like claiming that a person does not know how to speak italian, but not have any clue how to speak italian themselves.
In order to identify that a person has no knowledge on something, one must first have that knowledge in their own hands(or atleast imagine they do).
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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audiophoenix
Find Peace
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Posts: 4,107
Loc: Upstate NY
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14843365 - 07/29/11 11:41 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I can still say it is highly probable that humans can't comprehend it. I think it's a bit different that speaking italian.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14843372 - 07/29/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think it would be dishonest and irrational of me to claim I comprehend anything.
Equally so would it be dishonest and irrational for me to use that as a basis for assumption.
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Mycowlogist
Freethinker
Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 534
Loc: in a galaxy far far away....
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14843410 - 07/29/11 11:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails. Yet clearly since the party claiming this is a human being or collection of them, then the claim collapses on itself.
***The flaw in your statement is both claims are Man Made. One side claims something and has no proof of it. Which side is that?***
It is like claiming that a person does not know how to speak italian, but not have any clue how to speak italian themselves.
***That is a poor example for your argument.***
In order to identify that a person has no knowledge on something, one must first have that knowledge in their own hands(or atleast imagine they do).
"atleast imagine they do)" ***Couldn't have said it better myself.***
I am not trying to give you a hard time, is just that I really don't fully understand what you are really trying to say.
-------------------- "And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." Honest Abe
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14843411 - 07/29/11 11:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails. Yet clearly since the party claiming this is a human being or collection of them, then the claim collapses on itself.
It is like claiming that a person does not know how to speak italian, but not have any clue how to speak italian themselves.
In order to identify that a person has no knowledge on something, one must first have that knowledge in their own hands(or atleast imagine they do).
In the same way it is irrational for one to even claim a god exists or that there is a plan.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
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Last seen: 10 years, 30 days
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: audiophoenix]
#14844666 - 07/29/11 04:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
audiophoenix said: I can still say it is highly probable that humans can't comprehend it. I think it's a bit different that speaking italian.
It's not because language is understood, as any conception of 'god' is understood.
Imagine someone telling you that they don't know how to speak italian and have never encountered anyone who could, but they can identify 100% when others don't know how to speak italian. It's absurd, because in order to identify a persons understanding on a matter, one must have some level of comprehension/understanding of it.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14844740 - 07/29/11 04:18 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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So we always have some idea of what God is in our mind?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#14844834 - 07/29/11 04:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think so and it's always in some way a reflection of ourselves and our beliefs and needs.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
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Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 10 years, 30 days
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: Mycowlogist]
#14844871 - 07/29/11 04:46 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mycowlogist said:
Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails. Yet clearly since the party claiming this is a human being or collection of them, then the claim collapses on itself.
***The flaw in your statement is both claims are Man Made. One side claims something and has no proof of it. Which side is that?***
It is like claiming that a person does not know how to speak italian, but not have any clue how to speak italian themselves.
***That is a poor example for your argument.***
In order to identify that a person has no knowledge on something, one must first have that knowledge in their own hands(or atleast imagine they do).
"atleast imagine they do)" ***Couldn't have said it better myself.***
I am not trying to give you a hard time, is just that I really don't fully understand what you are really trying to say.
If you say that human beings can't understand god, how can you possibly know if to claim that someone misunderstands god, one must first understand what god is...which is impossible as a human being.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
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Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 10 years, 30 days
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: EternalCowabunga]
#14844878 - 07/29/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
EternalCowabunga said: So we always have some idea of what God is in our mind?
No; rather that when someone claims that no human being can comprehend god, that they themselves have a thought of god in their head with which they compare human beings understanding to and make the conclusion that they don't comprehend god.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14844887 - 07/29/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Do you believe there is a god? What would you base that on?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 10 years, 30 days
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: Icelander]
#14845442 - 07/29/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Do you believe there is a god? What would you base that on?
I don't believe there is a god. My argument disproves on of the many illogical proof's people use to argue for gods existence....
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,301
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14846028 - 07/29/11 09:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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It seems like ideas of God are discovered through nurture, but while examining what these institutional forms boil down to, is seems to be a scale between fundamentalism and it's opposite, which could be called nothingism or anythingism. At one extreme God is fully objective, and at the other end God is more abstract, spacial, and open to interpretation. A god seems like a linguistic anchor acknowledging some force outside the self, or some force inside the self, or both at the same time.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton
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Mycowlogist
Freethinker
Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 534
Loc: in a galaxy far far away....
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14847286 - 07/30/11 05:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:
Mycowlogist said:
Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails. Yet clearly since the party claiming this is a human being or collection of them, then the claim collapses on itself.
***The flaw in your statement is both claims are Man Made. One side claims something and has no proof of it. Which side is that?***
It is like claiming that a person does not know how to speak italian, but not have any clue how to speak italian themselves.
***That is a poor example for your argument.***
In order to identify that a person has no knowledge on something, one must first have that knowledge in their own hands(or atleast imagine they do).
"atleast imagine they do)" ***Couldn't have said it better myself.***
I am not trying to give you a hard time, is just that I really don't fully understand what you are really trying to say.
If you say that human beings can't understand god, how can you possibly know if to claim that someone misunderstands god, one must first understand what god is...which is impossible as a human being.
I think you just either answered my question or contradicted your original statement. Please re-read your sentence. If I can't understand what god is because I am human? Then how can I understand something I can't possibly know. Like Italian?
Thanks for the post. I wish you best of luck in all your endeavors.
-------------------- "And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." Honest Abe
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: Mycowlogist]
#14855036 - 08/01/11 05:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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is this thread in english?
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Mycowlogist
Freethinker
Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 534
Loc: in a galaxy far far away....
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: redgreenvines]
#14859366 - 08/02/11 12:11 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Nope is in Italian
-------------------- "And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." Honest Abe
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Seanfu
Jesus Christ Tacos
Registered: 11/26/09
Posts: 2,131
Loc: Brazil
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14866303 - 08/03/11 08:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails. Yet clearly since the party claiming this is a human being or collection of them, then the claim collapses on itself.
It is like claiming that a person does not know how to speak italian, but not have any clue how to speak italian themselves.
In order to identify that a person has no knowledge on something, one must first have that knowledge in their own hands(or atleast imagine they do).
Defensively speaking maybe it is ridiculous, but really we have limited understanding of our own social interactions let alone a potential higher being in a higher form of existence.
-------------------- I am a chronic liar.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14866564 - 08/03/11 10:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails.
You don't seem to have supported this premise, upon which you seem to be basing your entire argument on. It seems doubtful to me.
I can know someone's understanding that 2+2 equals 5 is false without wholly understanding mathmatics of what it entails. Likewise, I can know someone's understanding that a glass contains tap water is wrong without being able to identify what the substance is and without understanding all the substances possible.
These simple counterexamples seem to disprove your premise.
Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: [thread title] ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
k, does anyone do this? I've never heard anyone say that this is why people deny belief in god(s). Instead, the believers usually blame the devil, lust, greed, and tinkie-winkie's purse while the disbelievers blame lack of evidence, lack of indicia of reliability, lack of coherent message, et cet.
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago.
Last seen: 10 years, 30 days
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: johnm214]
#14867514 - 08/03/11 02:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Quote:
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails.
You don't seem to have supported this premise, upon which you seem to be basing your entire argument on. It seems doubtful to me.
I can know someone's understanding that 2+2 equals 5 is false without wholly understanding mathmatics of what it entails.
I disagree, I appreaciate that you took the time to add some examples of why you do, I hope to see more of this.
However, these examples do not share the same context, therefore, mathematics and my claim about god cannot be used to further your claim.
Mathematics is complex field with many assumptions and claims. In relation to god and my post, only one claim is being debunked; that one cannot comprehend gods plan and thus that god still potentially exists,even in light of the clear contradictions to what biblical texts describe reality to be. Ie. praying and gaining results through prayer.
In your example's you have cross referencing claims that support yet unproven claims about the subject being debated and I agree that in other debates we may use such a distinction to further a claim. Ie; we may not be able to prove what caused the universe to exist, but mathematically we may be able to prove that god wasn't the likely cause.
In my post, I attempt to show that the claim "We cannot comprehend gods plans" does further the claim that god exists.
With the concept of god, we do not have cross referencing claims, such as mathematical proofs, scientific observations that can help us back up the claim that we cannot comprehend gods plan. Also, to make a claim about understanding, we always employ some level of understanding on that subject. Therefore, a claim about god that attempts to prove that it is implausable for humans to come to an understanding about god, requires positive proof of what that god is or is not.
However, because anyone who claims this, is a human and by virtue could never comprehend any level of such plan and thus can only illogically claim that humans do not comprehend gods plan.
Likewise, I can know someone's understanding that a glass contains tap water is wrong without being able to identify what the substance is and without understanding all the substances possible.
These simple counterexamples seem to disprove your premise.
Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: [thread title] ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
k, does anyone do this? I've never heard anyone say that this is why people deny belief in god(s). Instead, the believers usually blame the devil, lust, greed, and tinkie-winkie's purse while the disbelievers blame lack of evidence, lack of indicia of reliability, lack of coherent message, et cet.
-------------------- if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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Toltecatl
Psychonaut
Registered: 07/29/10
Posts: 641
Loc: Tardis
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: It's irrational to say that humans cannot yet comprehend 'god' or gods plan. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
#14867749 - 08/03/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
AlphaFalfa said: ....and therefore this is why humans deny believing in god, etc.
It's ridiculous for one major reason; in order to claim that something is being misuderstood, the party claiming this must first understand wholy what it is that the phenomena(god) entails. Yet clearly since the party claiming this is a human being or collection of them, then the claim collapses on itself.
It is like claiming that a person does not know how to speak italian, but not have any clue how to speak italian themselves.
In order to identify that a person has no knowledge on something, one must first have that knowledge in their own hands(or atleast imagine they do).
That's why religion is established as a collection of beliefs rather than a collection of facts. You can prove with facts whether somebody can properly speak Italian. The same cannot be said about religion. How can one truly have "knowledge" about religion when that knowledge is based on assumptions and faith? This is a topic that can never be proved or disproved until you're on the other side...if there is an other side.
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