Home | Community | Message Board


FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Democracy isn't what's important
    #1484173 - 04/22/03 10:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The American people seem to think that if we bring democracy to Iraq, that they will be "free." But freedom and democracy are not synonymous. Democracy is merely tyranny of the majority. If we look at our own country, the best things about our system of government are rather undemocratic in their nature, such as the Bill of Rights, separation of powers, and judicial review. Checks and balances are basically anti-democratic, in that they put limits on what the government can do, even if they have the mandate of the people. This is what we need to set up in Iraq--checks and balances.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy isn't what's important [Re: silversoul7]
    #1484220 - 04/22/03 10:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree. I also think that democracy can be used as an important check and balance. Any law that the legislature passes should be put up for popular referendum, if the majority of those eligible to vote approve of it, then it can remain law (assuming other constitutional provisions are met). The idea behind my wording is this, a non-vote for something should be equivalent to a 'no' vote - one should not be forced to trudge out to the polls to opposes every hare-brained scheme that comes along.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Democracy isn't what's important [Re: Evolving]
    #1484403 - 04/22/03 11:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The idea behind my wording is this, a non-vote for something should be equivalent to a 'no' vote - one should not be forced to trudge out to the polls to opposes every hare-brained scheme that comes along.



Then almost nothing would pass.........wait, maybe that is a good thing. The last thing we need is more laws.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Democracy isn't what's important [Re: silversoul7]
    #1484565 - 04/23/03 12:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This is what we need to set up in Iraq--checks and balances.

It's pretty presumptuous to think that "we" have the right to set up anything anywhere outside of the United States. Even if one accepts the proposition that Iraq posed an immediate threat to the security of the United States (I do not), there is no reason why removing the WMD (if they're ever found) also gives us the right to reshape a sovereign nation in whatever image we see fit. The complete disregard that people are displaying towards the very idea of national sovereignty and self-determination is appalling, and a symptom of a creeping imperialist mentality and double-standard (i.e., the US can do whatever it wants whereas other nations have to abide by international law and, even more importantly, the desires of the United States). I know from your previous posts that this is not really a position you endorse, but the wording of your post seems to show that our very presence in Iraq is something that is now taken for granted and considered normal.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy isn't what's important [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1484591 - 04/23/03 12:45 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Hey, if life gives you lemons, you might as well make lemon aid. Would you rather the U.S. set up a Stalinist regime or a Facist regime? After all, it's only hypothetical from our standpoint.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Democracy isn't what's important [Re: Evolving]
    #1484619 - 04/23/03 12:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It doesn't matter what we set up because the second we're out of there the Iraqis are going to do whatever the hell they want anyway. Of course I would rather that we set up a government which is accountable to the people of Iraq, but my feeling is that whatever government we set up is only going to be accountable to the US government. My hunch is that we're going to set up some strong man who eventually is going to be overthrown by Shi'ite extremists. It'll be Iran all over again.

Your referendum idea was interesting, by the way. I was kind of surprised to hear you suggest it since referenda are about as democratic as things get. I'm not sure what to make of the rule that a no-show equals a "nay" vote. Considering that even presidential elections have voter turnouts under 50%, chances are that no legislation would EVER pass. Knowing your stance on these matters, I guess that was the whole point . . .


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Democracy isn't what's important [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1484809 - 04/23/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Considering that even presidential elections have voter turnouts under 50%, chances are that no legislation would EVER pass.



That's why I take it with a very large grain of salt when a winner to a political office claims a mandate. The true mandate seems to be an expression of the sentiment that there are no worthy people running ('None of The Above').


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Democracy isn't what's important [Re: silversoul7]
    #1485690 - 04/23/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree. Rule of law is the single most important thing, without which democracy cannot function like it should. Voting is not the be-all end-all that it is often made out to be.

Jonah Goldberg did a great essay on this a while back.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Democracy Explodes Over Iraq Evolving 785 8 04/12/04 11:40 PM
by Phred
* George W says: "democracies are peaceful countries" ShroomDoom 941 17 03/19/06 07:52 PM
by nonick
* US was warned Democracy in Iraq may be "Impossible"
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Edame 3,797 79 08/19/03 10:29 AM
by GernBlanston
* The Rise of Illiberal Democracy FrenchSocialist 755 1 04/29/07 02:41 AM
by Phred
* democracy ends [starting] in ohio...
Annapurna1
1,050 12 12/12/05 01:52 PM
by nakors_junk_bag
* What Could There Possibly be Beyond Democracy?(P1) FutureExPatriot 963 10 10/19/02 05:10 AM
by Evolving
* Are you anti-war and pro-democracy?
( 1 2 3 all )
Evolving 2,827 48 03/27/03 12:19 AM
by JonnyOnTheSpot
* Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
DoctorJ 2,531 61 07/22/03 11:22 PM
by Crobih

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
622 topic views. 1 members, 3 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Gaiana.nl
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.047 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 14 queries.