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Offlineimachavel
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so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it
    #14833995 - 07/27/11 04:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

a lot of people have pondered the existence of a black hole, and most people now think they exist and are so sure they do, look at this video:



in this video, they describe a black hole and say to create one, you need enough gravity to suck the mass of the earth into a density somewhere between a marble and a basketball. now I don't think this is possible and I'll explain why, but first I'll explain this. this is going to sound kind of gross.

imagine you have your anus, but you have never seen it. you live on the planet by yourself, so no one has seen you bend over, and there are no mirrors. you have never seen your asshole, but you know it exists. you have put your finger in there, and you have put devices in there that measure the pressure of your asshole. you know it's diameter, it's structure, how much pressure it exerts. you know it exists. you can calculate how much pressure your ass would be fighting against, if you shoved a banana up there. but you have never seen it. so you come up with scientific calculations, that explain how light must bounce off this object, and that it must be the color black, or white, or blue, or some shit. really, it must be pink or purple in reality. but anyway this guy figures it out, because of scientific properties. and he calls it a fact, but in reality, he can't prove this fact.

now this is the same of a black hole, sure, it's theoretically possible. if the right conditions persist, if there is a sun so god damn big, it could suck the entire earth into the size of a marble, with enough pressure, from an old sun, the size of the entire galaxy or some crap, with no fuel, now a black hole. but do I think it exists that way? no and I'll tell you why. but firstly, I want to say. no one has seen, measured, or proven it's existence, it's just a theory, a theory that is extremely possible in the right conditions, but none the less until someone goes out and sees it with their own eyes, it's totally horse shit. at least as anything beyond a theory. and right now people are calculating exactly how it works, where it occurs, etc. etc., and we haven't even proven that this shit EXISTS AT ALL!

for this to be possible, you need enough pressure to suck the earth into the size of a marble. at this pressure, well jesus let's not lie to ourselves, with way less pressure then this, we can get a tiny bullet, a projectile, to travel over a mile. with MUCH MUCH less pressure. so imagine the pressure, that would be constructed, to pressure the earth into the size of a marble. it would be immense, now in a black hole they describe that past the event horizon, past the singularity, inside, the atoms cannot be held at such a pressure forever. they must be exerted, so there is this jet streaming out the center of the black hole(oh btw a black hole in gravity terms is a disk, not a sphere, which makes sense since mostly gravity works on things creating a disk and not a sphere), and this jet is emitting super heated particles. now if these particles are released from a black hole, they should be released from the equivalent pressure of the size of an earth compressed into the size of a marble. these atoms should have so much pressure, that in theory, they should exit the black hole, if it's possible, at maybe millions of times the speed of light. now wouldn't one of these particles fired at the earth be enough to completely blow it up apart like a super sonic faster then the universe was created bullet?

now assuming that these particles are scattered throughout space in all directions, and not one is able to come into the earths orbit in it's trajectory, would it still not be likely that we'd see these particles effect other things?

so really, my acceptance that according to the laws of physics, this is possible, sure I believe it's theoretically possible. it could happen, and maybe it happening. but for sure scientific law, proven fact, let's go out and find one? definitely not, if stated in that way I believe it's all total horse shit. sure, according to the laws of physics, this model is not entirely impossible. but I believe the forces needed to create it, and the resulting forces, would be UNDENIABLE. There is no WAY we wouldn't have SOME knowledge of this thing, beyond just a patch in space that no stars existed.

anyway I know people are going to shoot me down, I welcome it. I want to know what people think, I still stand by what I say.


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel]
    #14834007 - 07/27/11 04:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wiki: Cygnus X-1. Also, Tunguska.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #14834320 - 07/27/11 05:31 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
mostly gravity works on things creating a disk and not a sphere




Huh?,

Quote:

these atoms should have so much pressure, that in theory, they should exit the black hole, if it's possible, at maybe millions of times the speed of light




No.

Quote:

now wouldn't one of these particles fired at the earth be enough to completely blow it up apart like a super sonic faster then the universe was created bullet?




Nope.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14835573 - 07/27/11 09:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

riiiigght. so a black hole exists, when a star dies. perhaps. probably.

we know for sure "Cygnus X-1. Also, Tunguska." are black holes? NOPE. they are places in space where we can't see stars, also these places emit large amounts of radiation, that apparently emit from the event horizon. we don't know they are black holes, but the only reasonable explanation we can come up with, is that they must be large amounts of gravity left over from dying stars, that is so strong it sucks up light, but still emits radiation. ok a good theory, leaving out that people have said gravity can't exist without matter, gravitrons are created by matter, so at the singularity, there would have to be matter squeezed together. another great theory, and a good way of explaining the phenomenon of those sectors.

now they say gravity so strong that it sucks up light, would have to be strong enough to compress the entire mass of the earth, into the size of a marble, that much density is required. but they also this:

http://www.universetoday.com/14068/what-is-on-the-other-side-of-a-black-hole/

it forms more of a disk then a sphere, and shoots out super heated particles. now you are telling me, that if this black hole that is going to release particles, and these particles are equal to the earths mass compressed into the size of a marble, that at that pressure, that these particles would not be released at tremendous speeds that are probably beyond the speed of light?

the black hole 'THEORY,' or if you want to go as boldy to say it's just a hypothesis, because it hasn't really been TESTED much at all. no variables can be introduced, because the source is WAYY out in space. anyway, you are saying these particles are emitted, and are emitted fast, but not too fast, they sort of just drift out of the center of the black hole. now even if these particles left the black hole at less speed then the speed of light, black holes are still created by huge super giants, as a dying star either forms a white dwarf, a novae, or a super novae, or a black hole. these particles would still be jetted out at hundreds of thousands of miles per hour, and although they may scatter, if they don't fall into a planets orbit or gravity, they will continue traveling through space at at the same speed they left the black hole for infinity until they fall into a planets orbit or gravity.

now maybe black holes are real, I don't know how much density it takes for these things to be created that they can compress the size of the earth into a tiny marble, but it's quite a lot. and I don't believe that with that much density, that hot particles are going to be spewed out one side and absorbed on the other, and that these particles aren't going to be traveling so fast that one particle would potentially be like a light speed bullet that would rip apart the surface of a small moon, and if not destroy a planet, act like a meteor and destroy life on the planet.

I'm interested in hearing explanations proving that this is wrong, but just "look it up on wikipedia" isn't going to cut it for me


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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OfflineJT
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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #14836686 - 07/28/11 02:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"Released at speeds faster than the speed of light"

It all makes sense now

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel] * 3
    #14839712 - 07/28/11 04:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

for this to be possible, you need enough pressure to suck the earth into the size of a marble. at this pressure, well jesus let's not lie to ourselves, with way less pressure then this, we can get a tiny bullet, a projectile, to travel over a mile. with MUCH MUCH less pressure. so imagine the pressure, that would be constructed, to pressure the earth into the size of a marble. it would be immense, now in a black hole they describe that past the event horizon, past the singularity, inside, the atoms cannot be held at such a pressure forever. they must be exerted, so there is this jet streaming out the center of the black hole(oh btw a black hole in gravity terms is a disk, not a sphere, which makes sense since mostly gravity works on things creating a disk and not a sphere), and this jet is emitting super heated particles. now if these particles are released from a black hole, they should be released from the equivalent pressure of the size of an earth compressed into the size of a marble. these atoms should have so much pressure, that in theory, they should exit the black hole, if it's possible, at maybe millions of times the speed of light. now wouldn't one of these particles fired at the earth be enough to completely blow it up apart like a super sonic faster then the universe was created bullet?




Not one word of that is accurate.


Currently, the best evidence for a supermassive black hole comes from studying the proper motion of stars near the center of our own Milky Way. Since 1995 astronomers have tracked the motion of 90 stars in a region called Sagittarius A*. By fitting their motion to Keplerian orbits they were able to infer in 1998 that 2.6 million solar masses must be contained in a volume with a radius of 0.02 lightyears. Since then one of the stars—called S2—has completed a full orbit. From the orbital data they were able to place better constraints on the mass and size of the object causing the orbital motion of stars in the Sagittarius A* region, finding that there is a spherical mass of 4.3 million solar masses contained within a radius of less than 0.002 lightyears. While this is more than 3000 times the Schwarzschild radius corresponding to that mass, it is at least consistent with the central object being a supermassive black hole, and no "realistic cluster [of stars] is physically tenable".

This, combined with the mathematical suggestions of general relativity, is more than enough evidence to convince physicists and astronomers that black holes are a real, observable phenomena.
It would be wise to follow their lead..

Edited by mushiepussy (07/28/11 04:22 PM)

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: mushiepussy]
    #14841066 - 07/28/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

oh excuse me for thinking that squeezing the mass of the earth into the size of a marble wouldn't have serious consequential side effects. I suppose that matter released with that much pressure wouldn't send particles hurtling at near light speeds, especially since scientists "seem to know better, and I'd be wise to agree with them"

do you understand the concept of fitting the entire mass of the earth into the size of a marble? those quantum physics can't even compare things like matter anti matter and radiation fusion and fission. sure they are all parts of the equation, but the amount of energy in such density defies all other forms of energy. biggest super novae can't compare. so scientists find heat in space. very believable. what else? I don't believe the pressure will be released in jets. if that was true we'd see super speed jets pummeling planets and stars. it is a fact of calculated physics. I mean black holes are there, but do you believe they are as people have described them??


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel] * 4
    #14841442 - 07/28/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Why are you so confident in your convictions when the predicate facts have been identified as false?
You don't make clear arguments for your conclusion, so its not even clear how you've arrived at your position.

I mean, take this:  I suppose that matter released with that much pressure wouldn't send particles hurtling at near light speeds

What relevance does this have?  Clearly it would and does, but you've not provided any evidence that such streams of matter/radiation doesn't exist, so its unclear how you feel this consequence is a problem.  Look up active galaxies and relativistic jets if you care.

I don't believe the pressure will be released in jets. if that was true we'd see super speed jets pummeling planets and stars.

Well, don't we see "jets pummeling planets and stars"?  It seems like your lack of familiarity with the evidence is being used as the basis for your argument.  Ignorance of some phenomena can never provide evidence against it.

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel]
    #14841554 - 07/28/11 11:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
oh excuse me for thinking that squeezing the mass of the earth into the size of a marble wouldn't have serious consequential side effects. I suppose that matter released with that much pressure wouldn't send particles hurtling at near light speeds, especially since scientists "seem to know better, and I'd be wise to agree with them"

do you understand the concept of fitting the entire mass of the earth into the size of a marble? those quantum physics can't even compare things like matter anti matter and radiation fusion and fission. sure they are all parts of the equation, but the amount of energy in such density defies all other forms of energy. biggest super novae can't compare. so scientists find heat in space. very believable. what else? I don't believe the pressure will be released in jets. if that was true we'd see super speed jets pummeling planets and stars. it is a fact of calculated physics. I mean black holes are there, but do you believe they are as people have described them??




I did not say it wouldn't have side effects, and you did not say the explosion of a black hole would send particles flying at near light speed.

Quote:

these atoms should have so much pressure, that in theory, they should exit the black hole, if it's possible, at maybe millions of times the speed of light.




These atoms(although in the singularity atoms do not exist) do not exit the black hole until the black hole blows itself to pieces. When that does happen, only energy will be emitted, traveling at the speed of light. The speed of light is relative so it may exceed speeds of 186,000 miles a second, but it will still be the speed of light.

Squeezing the mass of earth into a marble compresses the atoms to the point where the strong and weak forces fail to hold the structure of the atom together, at which point all of its constituents a forced together into a single point.

The forces necessary to create a black hole occur in the heart of a hypernova(large supernova) explosion. Nuclear fusion in stars 100 times the mass of our sun will rapidly fuse its core into heavier and heavier elements, until it reaches iron. The core does not have enough energy to fuse iron, and once enough is made, fusion is unable to support the enormous weight of the stars outer layers. Those layers are forced inward by gravity in a matter of seconds, compressing the core to a singularity(the point where atoms break down). 


I say you should follow scientists lead because this is what they do professionally :tongue:

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel]
    #14842095 - 07/29/11 01:48 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You measure it's mass and divide with volume, and you get density.

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: nooneman] * 3
    #14842552 - 07/29/11 05:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

imachavel, it seems like you implicitly assume that the limits of your imagination are also the limits of reality, and that therefore any theory, however well support by evidence, that goes beyond the limits of your imagination must be false. Or, simply put: "it just can't be, because I can't imagine it" is not a very valid scientific thesis.

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: koraks] * 1
    #14842699 - 07/29/11 07:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
imachavel, it seems like you implicitly assume that the limits of your imagination are also the limits of reality, and that therefore any theory, however well support by evidence, that goes beyond the limits of your imagination must be false. Or, simply put: "it just can't be, because I can't imagine it" is not a very valid scientific thesis.




Well said.  imachavel, please don't take what koraks (and others) said as a flame.  For the most part, scientists and engineers will go out of their way to help somebody that wants to learn.  We are trying to help you, not slam you.  It is easy to become defensive and lash out.  Instead, re-read what has been said, with an open mind, assuming that the poster has your best interest at heart.


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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: Seuss] * 2
    #14842756 - 07/29/11 07:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Well said.  imachavel, please don't take what koraks (and others) said as a flame.



Thanks. And exactly: it wasn't a flame. Just an observation, and a bit of a warning - that scientific discovery and understanding require the ability and the willingness to think outside of the box of your own imagination.

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: koraks]
    #14845445 - 07/29/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
imachavel, it seems like you implicitly assume that the limits of your imagination are also the limits of reality, and that therefore any theory, however well support by evidence, that goes beyond the limits of your imagination must be false. Or, simply put: "it just can't be, because I can't imagine it" is not a very valid scientific thesis.




but at the same time, "it just must be, because it's theoretically possible, and I can imagine it, and it's not entirely beyond the laws physics, so it has to exist." doesn't mean it is real. it is not theoretically physically impossible that a star the size of our milky way galaxy exists, but it hasn't been proven. this doesn't make it real or real.

I hadn't yet understood that when a black hole explodes that it will send energy not in atom form hurtling at the speed of light. this is a much better theory/hypothesis, as it would accommodate for the explanation that a black hole would release atoms at tremendous speeds when the pressure is released, but only the atoms will be shredded by the sheer pressure/weight/other forces/or already were when the star used up it's fuel. this sounds very likely in theory.

I very much can imagine such pressure as being able to fit the earth into the size of a marble, but seriously it is a heavy accusation to make. and I just think some times people are so set on the fact that black holes are real now, when 30 years ago a lot of people still thought it was just a hypothesis/theory. of course now we have much more evidence of their existence, but none the less no proof has been made. fitting the size of the earth into a marble would require pressure beyond that we can understand in our tiny minds, however is it physically impossible? well I guess no one has proven that it is, so until it is it isn't. this doesn't make it a law of science and as far as I know no one is convinced it is entirely yet. the forces needed to shrink such a mass into a much smaller mass are extraordinary.

now, as possible as this is, I still have my doubts that the size of a marble is accurate. and some other things I have a hard time swallowing. I think though that it's sufficient to say, that not necessarily would so much pressure be needed to create a black hole. the gravity created from compacting the earth into the size of a city to me seems sufficient enough to create a black hole. some people disagree of course, some people think no less pressure is needed to create the smallest star, which I don't entirely agree with. so most people think the earth being compacted into the size of Hawaii would be enough pressure to create a star. now the size of a marble, yes, that is small indeed. is there something wrong with the idea that a black hole could shrink the earth into the size of a quarter of Hawaii? this is still a tremendous amount of pressure.

also, my problem with the black hole hypothesis/theory is that a lot of people seem to think that there is just "left over gravity" from the star that would create a black hole. this hypothesis/theory has been greatly thrown out the window since it has been come up with, as the idea is ridiculous. now it's known that the singularity itself would be the root of all the gravity, matter/particles in some form are needed to create gravitrons.

another hole in the theory/hypothesis is that the size of a black hole is much bigger then a marble, if at the singularity, enough density would be needed to fit the mass of the earth into a marble, then you would need quite a bit of matter to create such a large singularity as such as the ones that have been hypothesized. such a large singularity theory/hypothesis with so much density, could this really be made by just the left over matter from a very large sun? given, some suns are larger then our entire solar system. none the less, for such a large singularity to exist, you would need so much matter, it's almost as though you would need a 10th of the galaxy to fit into one of those black holes. do the math:

The density of the Earth is 5.513 g/cm3

Earth's volume is approximately 1083210000000 km

now fit that into the volume of the size of a marble, and multiply to get the correct density. does it seem feasible that enough matter would fit into what they calculate as the correct singularity volume and density of cygnus or any of the other phenomoly?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: koraks]
    #14845492 - 07/29/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
Well said.  imachavel, please don't take what koraks (and others) said as a flame.



Thanks. And exactly: it wasn't a flame. Just an observation, and a bit of a warning - that scientific discovery and understanding require the ability and the willingness to think outside of the box of your own imagination.




I didn't say it was a flame, and I am not lashing out. but your own imagination does not create the realms of physics or reality. sure, our own imaginations can limit us in the sense that people used to think the earth was flat. but also we can get carried away with tales of ogres and fairies flying through the woods. there IS a logical explanation for phenomenon and anomalies such as cygnus and other such examples. they are spots in space that we can't see stars, and they emit large amounts of radiation from these areas. this we know very well. is a black hole a good theory/hypothesis for these phenomenon? does it guarantee that they exist? no it doesn't.

some people still think the sun isn't a fusion reactor, but a gas/electrical reactor. they've taken measurements and said that the surface of the sun should be more hot if the internal composition of the sun is that of a fusion reactor. and people have said that there is a very large electromagnetic current running around the sun, that would be explained by an electric gas reaction. do I agree with this? of course not, and we have proven through tests here, and even more so with explosives, that fission and fusion reactions create very large emps. they are not waves because the reactions are never stable.

but still, to this day the idea of a fusion reaction sun is still only a theory, if not a well tested one. so how in earth are black holes very much in existence, and where is this retested and proven evidence? the nearest one is how many light years away? even if they do exist, who is to say they exist with verified results on the calculations given? cmon... :shrug:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #14845525 - 07/29/11 07:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"only a theory"

You aren't even using theory right, the word you want there is hypothesis.
But solar fusion might as well be theory, it's the next best thing we have to fact.


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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: Doc_T] * 1
    #14845712 - 07/29/11 07:50 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)



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Offlineimachavel
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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: Doc_T]
    #14846001 - 07/29/11 08:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
"only a theory"

You aren't even using theory right, the word you want there is hypothesis.
But solar fusion might as well be theory, it's the next best thing we have to fact.




well if you notice I often said hypothesis/theory. and it is the next best thing to fact.


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: imachavel]
    #14849469 - 07/30/11 05:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What i've heard about it is that when enough mass gets into an area, several things can happen. First of all, the mass gets very hot from compression just like when you compress air it gets hot. Next, when there is enough heat and pressure you get fusion starting with hydrogen which is easiest. Hydrogen is very abundant.

This is the way stars are formed. The outward pressure of the fusion explosion works against the inward pressure of gravity and there is balance for a while. Eventually stars become unstable and may explode. The best explanation for this is that they use up the hydrogen fuel, and then helium fuel and start fusing heavier elements. Sometimes this happens all at once and overcomes the force of gravity. The outer part of the star blows away and you have a nova or supernova. What is left is often a neutron star or a core of super compressed matter which scientists believe is composed of a mass of neutrons. It has a huge gravity and can influence objects nearby.

Another possibility after exploding is a brown dwarf. This is like a failed star. It does have fusion going on sometimes but not enough to light up. And it isn't dense enough to form a neutron star.

When a neutron star forms that is so dense it can't even maintain the form of condensed matter, the matter itself is squeezed into a smaller and smaller space until it collapses. At this point you have a black hole. It does not have a size that we can measure but it does have an event horizon. Anything that enters the event horizon is sucked into the black hole, compressed, heated and becomes part of the black hole itself making it more massive and giving it a larger event horizon.

We can't see black holes directly because they do not reflect light nor do they allow light to escape from them. Objects which go into orbit around a black hole but outside it's event horizon exhibit unusual behavior. The tidal forces of the bh cause the matter to heat up and give off light, ultra violet, x rays and sometimes gamma rays. Often the matter spirals down into the bh and is eventually eaten. It is said that our galaxy has one or more bh's at it's center and one day they might eat the galaxy and then each other.


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Re: so really, a black hole is theoretically possible, and that's it [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14849991 - 07/31/11 12:33 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

On a separate note.. I theorize the big bang to be the explosion of a super massive black hole, or the release of energy from its singularity.

Explanation..
Our universe appears to be expanding, and it is thought nearly all galaxies contain a supermassive black hole at their center. Eventually(in trillions of years), the black hole will consume the contents of the galaxy, and all that will be left in the universe are black holes flying away from each other. Once these black holes reach a specific distance apart, gravity will succumb to entropy, and the bodies will be torn apart(known as the "big rip"). This would result in an even expansion of energy and a rapid increase in local entropy, which would be the relative beginning of time.

This could theoretically be an infinite process, where each black hole is capable of giving birth to an expanding mass, which is capable of birthing new black holes, and so on.. in a continual(and possibly evolutionary) process. 

Of course, this is highly speculative, and largely depends on the characteristics of dark energy and how/if they will change over time.


Please let me know if you see any problems.. or implications. Thanks for reading.

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