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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Iraqis and Democracy
    #1482991 - 04/22/03 05:32 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Many (if not most) Iraqis do not want a democracy, but a hierachical form of religious-based government.

But Bush's regime insists that the freedom-loving Iraqis adopt an American-style of government whether they want one or not!

You gotta love this no matter your leaning.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,268
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Swami]
    #1483056 - 04/22/03 05:54 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I highly doubt that it will be an American style of government. Probably more resemble England's.



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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: wingnutx]
    #1483169 - 04/22/03 06:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The thing is: The Coalition wants them to have the type of government that The Coalition wants them to have regardless of Iraqi desires.

Does no one else here see the incredible irony in that?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Swami]
    #1483262 - 04/22/03 07:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Many (if not most) Iraqis do not want a democracy, but a hierachical form of religious-based government.



How do you know this?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Evolving]
    #1483271 - 04/22/03 07:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Because he saw some bearded guys on TV saying so.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Evolving]
    #1483377 - 04/22/03 07:45 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

How do you know this?

A. Because I am the Swami.

B. Because I watch "Fair & Balanced" TV news polls.

C. You will be able to verify the basics of what I am saying in the next few months.

Most young'uns here (not you - you geezer!) are probably unfamiliar that Fidel Castro was a freedom fighter ridding Cuba of an oppressive regime. (Substitute any of innumerable historical examples). The point being that all too often, brutal leaders are replaced by even more brutal leaders.

More than likeley the religious majority or Iraq will squash the freedoms of the minority.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Swami]
    #1483412 - 04/22/03 07:51 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

B. Because I watch "Fair & Balanced" TV news polls.



I would seriously doubt the validity of any polls coming out of Iraq right now.

Quote:

The point being that all too often, brutal leaders are replaced by even more brutal leaders.



Sort of like the point made in 'Animal Farm.'

Quote:

More than likeley the religious majority or Iraq will squash the freedoms of the minority.



Ah... the blessings of democracy.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Swami]
    #1483503 - 04/22/03 08:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Many (if not most) Iraqis do not want a democracy, but a hierachical form of religious-based government




If that's what they want then they can elect people to do that for them. When the elect a leader from an anti-democracy party, then I'll buy what you're saying.


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Swami]
    #1483723 - 04/22/03 09:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Many (if not most) Iraqis do not want a democracy, but a hierachical form of religious-based government.




It all comes down to differences in cultures. For example, even the definition of a caliphate is know by few in the west, it?s totally foreign concept and once understood, a bit frightening.


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1483728 - 04/22/03 09:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The reality is the invaders do not want a religious based government to run Iraq as they are paranoid of fundamentalist influence. The idea of an Islamic government does not appeal to the United States because they foresee things like Clerics, fatwas, and Iranian style govern. Bush wants to install the same type of regime that was installed in Afghanistan after the Talibaan fell, with permanent bases for U.S. forces. In other words a puppet.

If you think that there is going to be the same kind of freedom in Iraq as there is in europe and America with a newly installed pro-Coalition government, you are sadly mistaken. This is still the Middle East, where the majority of people are more fixated on a religious way of life as opposed to one with "many freedoms". The majority of Iraqis are devout Muslims who would like to see religious rule, not secular rule - after all, the Iraqis have lived under the secular state of Saddam Hussein for decades.

The United States will assert that an Islamic government cannot run the Muslim predominant Iraq because of the different religious and ethnic groups; Shi'ites (most want to see religious rule in Iraq, as well), the Kurds, and the Iraqi Christians and other religious minorities.

If the United States wants the Iraqi people liberated, and at the same time not disturb the Muslim world, they would have to allow the Iraqis to rule themselves with religious authority.

While seperating religion and state is popular in the West, in the Middle East it is not, and secular governments are not trusted there.


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Zahid]
    #1483852 - 04/22/03 09:44 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"Bush wants to install the same type of regime that was installed in Afghanistan after the Talibaan fell, with permanent bases for U.S. forces. In other words a puppet."

No "regime" was "installed" by Bush in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban.

Hamid Karzai was selected by the Afghan council, the Loya Jirga. No Americans were permitted to vote in this decision, nor are any Americans even members of the council.

"While seperating religion and state is popular in the West, in the Middle East it is not, and secular governments are not trusted there."

Which is most unfortunate for women and non-muslims. (Or anyone who values civil liberties for that matter).


Edited by OOOO (04/22/03 09:59 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: OOOO]
    #1483954 - 04/22/03 10:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

No "regime" was "installed" by Bush in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban.

Do the words "interim government' and 'Germany' help you remember the days of the 'newly liberated Afghanistan'? If you're trying to throw semantics in my face, it's not going to work because it was the United States who invaded Afghanistan. And the fact remains, U.S. soldiers are still permanently in Afghanistan.

Which is most unfortunate for women and non-muslims. (Or anyone who values civil liberties for that matter).

You're comparing apples to oranges. You might as well write a guest column for Answering-Islam.com. No, the unfortunate aspect of a religious government to the Americans would be Clerics calling for the government to banish the coalition soldiers.


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OfflineOOOO
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: Zahid]
    #1483993 - 04/22/03 10:08 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"If you're trying to throw semantics in my face, it's not going to work because it was the United States who invaded Afghanistan. And the fact remains, U.S. soldiers are still permanently in Afghanistan."

You claimed that Bush installed the current regime in Afghanistan. I pointed out that America had absolutely no say in the selection of Hamid Karzai. He was selected by a traditional tribal council of Afghanis.

You had made a false assumption, and I pointed out that your assumption was not factual. Instead of this enlightening you a little, you accuse me of semantical trickery.

"No, the unfortunate aspect of a religious government to the Americans would be Clerics calling for the government to banish the coalition soldiers."

Perhaps to some Americans this would be a possible unfortunate aspect.

I'm more concerned about the record of mysogyny, religious persecution, and general oppression that islamic theocracies have always had.


Edited by OOOO (04/22/03 10:34 PM)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Iraqis and Democracy [Re: OOOO]
    #1484094 - 04/22/03 10:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You had made a false assumption, and I pointed out that your assumption was not factual. Instead of this enlightening you a little, you accuse me of semantical trickery.

No, you are using 'semantical trickery' because you seem to ignore the fact that it was the Americans who overthrew the Talibaan. I didn't say that Bush's administration directly installed the administration of Hamid Karzai (even though 'they' did for the first six months after the fall of Taliban). The Bush administration did however have the United States invade Afghanistan and establish permanent bases. It's quite a given that the Afghani people, and now the Iraqi people are able to now vote which leader they want - but since the U.S. put all the effort and money into 'liberating' them, they sure as hell are not going to let the Iraqi and Afghani people elect a canidate that wants to expel the coalition soldiers, and establish Islamic purity throughout the land. 'Semantical trickery'? Sure, since you're the one interpreting my words incorrectly. The United States invaded Afghanistan, the United States now has permanent bases there. Without the United States there would be no Hamid Karzai government.

I'm more concerned about the record of mysogyny, religious persecution, and general oppression that islamic theocracies have always had.

Are you able to give any examples outside the realm of the al Saud royal family? OOOO, for centuries Muslims have ruled their Muslim people under the guidance of Shari'ah law (Divine law), why is that suddenly a problem now? I think you have a dubious bias towards Islam.


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