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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers
    #1482310 - 04/22/03 02:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Greets
Ok, so far the Anti-Warrers have told us that it's the US Sanctions which are starving the Iraqi' citizens, that the Iraqi's are no more free than when Saddy was in power, that the US will lead the government in Iraq with no free elections, and that we went there just for oil...
Now lets come back to reality for a while... :smile:


First off, if we read the news at http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20030422/D7QINS0G1.html we'll see that Bush acted, BEFORE the UN did, to start getting the sanctions lifted. This tells us a few things. First, the sanctions on Iraq came from the UN who said that Iraq was not in complaiance with UN resolutions to disarm. Secondly, now that we've removed the regime, we are more than happy to help the Iraqi's out.  A total of 44 million dollars has been contributed to internation aid organizations to start pumping food into Iraq, forty million of that is ours. So it looks like we aren't trying to "starve" the Iraqi's, and it looks like we are definatly very concerned with their well being.

As for the everday freedom of Iraq, the religion that constitutes the majority of Iraq (the shiites, or sunnies, whichever Saddam was not), had "hundreds of thousands" of people making a pilgramge to Karbala, something they were forbidden to do under Saddam's tyrannical rule.  Also, the General that the US is having "work with the coalition to determine long term plans for Iraq" has stated openly that he wants to have open elections as soon as possible.  So, it looks like we are all about giving freedom to Iraq, and they are already having more freedom than they did have.

Now, the claim that the US went there just for oil.  Iraq, the experts are saying, could be producing 1.1 million barrels of oil within 6 months.  The US is going to, of course, have comptent Iraqi's run the nations financial matters, and that profit will be used to help the average Iraqi.  Lets say that the liberals were right (hah I know, sounds funny doesn't it) and that the US is in this JUST for the oil.  The oil fields we already have in Alaska, not inculding the possibility of drillin ANWR produce more than that per day in oil. So, they are saying that we took over an entire nation, spent all the billions of dollars for the war, and the untold billions to rebuild the nation, to get a tiny droplet of oil? I don't think so. (http://www.r7.fws.gov/nwr/arctic/issues1.html#section2 is a good link to see how much oil Alaska produces).

To finalize, the Iraqi people are fast on their way towards being a free nation, with free elections where people are free to do as they please, as long as it doesn't impede anyone elses rights. They are recieiving massive amounts of aide from the US, both in actual tangable aide (i.e. food) and support for removing sanctions that the UN imposed on them. The US also found SIX HUNDRED MILLION dollars in Iraq, saddams personal fund, that they will be holding and using to help rebuild Iraq.  We are going to totally rebuild the nation in the image that THEY want to, but it will be really what THEY want, now that they have freedom.  I'm sure that this will be another fast-growing thread, lets see what the liberals do when confronted with fact! (My guess, flaming)

Pz

Johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1482319 - 04/22/03 02:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

We were prohibited from visiting these shrines for a long time by the Baath Party and their agents," Abed Ali Ghilan said in Karbala. "This year we thank God for ridding us of the dictator Saddam Hussein and for letting us visit these shrines."


One quote from a manwho spend his entire life afraid to worship how he pleases, and now he is. Maybe you can all sit back and say "this man would be so much happier if he were oppressed, damn the US for freeing him", but I won't


pz

johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offlinejimsuzo
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1485272 - 04/23/03 06:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

JR -

First, I'll tell you where I'm coming from with my anti-war opinion and its got little to do with any of the crap you discuss below. Wars mean killing. I'm anti-killing. Therefore, I'm anti-war (unless there's a 100% valid cause for it - Pearl harbor comes to mind). It's really pretty simple.

Second, the ANWR -it just ain't worth it. Take my word for it (you can check the other thread to see what i do for a living ).

peace -

J


--------------------
There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1486130 - 04/23/03 02:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, I think that most people that read in here have forgotten their philosophy and world history. Let me do my best to explain. First, your very simpllistic "killing is bad" thing immediatly precedes "unless we need to". Thats obviously correct. In a utilitarianism style of philosophy, we must do what would be the greater good for the greatest number of people. Now, us killing "X" number of Saddamites and, unfortunatly, innocent civilians put an END to the butchery thta Saddam inflicted on his people. Our killing x number of people sounds "horrible" because yes, those people have moral agency and consciousness and they are human beings, however, when they act in a way that shows they do not appreciat eother lives, and they wantonly take other lives, their lives become forfeit. It's interesting that you mention Pearl Harbor and not the holocaust. If we had known about the holocaust, would that have been viable reason to enter into WWII?

Your post basically says that you are anti-war all of the time because war is inherently evil, and then not even 50 pixels to the right, you are sayign that their are conditions that can be met that would allow you to support war. What are those exact conditions, and how do they apply to pearl harbor but not Iraq? is it just in self defense? If you are "anti-killing" unless it's self defense (Which is a good moral position, really, Icommend you for it), let me put forth a scenario. You own a firearm ( a pistol ) which you are proficient with. Now, you are walking down the street with aforementioned pistol when you see a man (yea, I realize that this is way out there, i'm just illustrating a point) that is wielding a knife and has three children tied up. He obviously is going to killl them. now, this man has done nothing to you, and if he continues with his plan of murdering these children, he still won't have done anything to you. however, your 'killing" him would save three innocent lives. what wouldja do?


pz

johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1486267 - 04/23/03 03:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Your post basically says that you are anti-war all of the time because war is inherently evil, and then not even 50 pixels to the right, you are sayign that their are conditions that can be met that would allow you to support war. What are those exact conditions, and how do they apply to pearl harbor but not Iraq? is it just in self defense? If you are "anti-killing" unless it's self defense (Which is a good moral position, really, Icommend you for it), let me put forth a scenario. You own a firearm ( a pistol ) which you are proficient with. Now, you are walking down the street with aforementioned pistol when you see a man (yea, I realize that this is way out there, i'm just illustrating a point) that is wielding a knife and has three children tied up. He obviously is going to killl them. now, this man has done nothing to you, and if he continues with his plan of murdering these children, he still won't have done anything to you. however, your 'killing" him would save three innocent lives. what wouldja do?



To make your scenario more like the Iraq situation, you would have to make it so that if you kill the guy with the knife, you piss everybody off and a bunch of people start plotting to kill you.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: silversoul7]
    #1486322 - 04/23/03 03:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

To be more accurate people are already plotting to kill you and stopping the man with the knife will cause the people who are already plotting to kill you to want to do it more.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: z@z.com]
    #1486335 - 04/23/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Or rather there were already people who wanted to kill you, and after you kill the guy more people decide to join them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: silversoul7]
    #1487192 - 04/23/03 08:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

To make your scenario more like the Iraq situation, you would have to make it so that if you kill the guy with the knife, you piss everybody off and a bunch of people start plotting to kill you.


I really like what Z@Z said, excellent point. However, the effect on you should have no bearing, if more people try to kill you you'll defend yourself. The issue at hand, in this instance, rae the innocents that that may most likely would have killed. Are you saying, basically, "more people will hate us if we do the morally right thing?" That sounds like someone that the playground whimp being pushed around by a bully, and we've proven that no other nation can "bully" America.


Pz


Johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Offlinejimsuzo
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1488847 - 04/24/03 11:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

sorry JR, but I've got difficulty putting myself in impossible hypothetical situations.

As for my apparent moral contradiction - I think WWII was justified. We were attacked, we knew who the enemy was, & we fought back. This (Iraq) is very different. If it would been an Iraqi jet that was flown into the WTC, maybe I'd feel differently. Nonetheless, I personally would not want to kill anybody or anything and would do everything in my power to avoid it.


--------------------
There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


Edited by jimsuzo (04/24/03 03:30 PM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: jimsuzo]
    #1488972 - 04/24/03 12:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"I think WWI was justified. We were attacked, we knew who the enemy was, & we fought back."

Obviously you don't know a whole lot about history.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinejimsuzo
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: Phluck]
    #1489623 - 04/24/03 03:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

oops, that's II not I. obviously my typing is shite.


--------------------
There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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Anonymous

Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1489810 - 04/24/03 04:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

we'll see that Bush acted, BEFORE the UN did, to start getting the sanctions




of course he did, none of our corparations can start really raking in the dough over there with those pesky sanctions still in place.

Quote:

Secondly, now that we've removed the regime, we are more than happy to help the Iraqi's out. A total of 44 million dollars has been contributed to internation aid organizations to start pumping food into Iraq, forty million of that is ours.




wow, forty million dollars. aren't we incredible. what did the war cost? 60 billion? how incredibly compassionate of george bush.

Quote:

Lets say that the liberals were right (hah I know, sounds funny doesn't it)




Again, I'm not a liberal. But your incredibly lame jokes are constantly making you look not only ignorant but extremely immature.

Quote:

Now, the claim that the US went there just for oil.




Of course we don't care about oil. that's why the Ministry of Oil was completely occupied while the rest of the country was being set on fire, bombed, and looted.

Quote:

lets see what the liberals do when confronted with fact!




1) i see very little "fact" in your post
2) i find it curious that you think that anyone who doesn't agree with your poorly thought out theories is a liberal. you are a microcosm of a system that is very, very broken.










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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: ]
    #1489843 - 04/24/03 04:27 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Good post feind! but i think all that goes without saying...

I hate people who "tell" us anti-warrers whats what with facts that are outdated and incomplete.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1489984 - 04/24/03 05:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I guess to put this in perspective for Johnny:

A liberal who was going around behaving in this kind of way putting down conservatives at every chance is every bit as retarded.

The system is broken because people stand behind a party as opposed to standing behind causes and ideals.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: ]
    #1490112 - 04/24/03 05:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The system is broken because people stand behind a party as opposed to standing behind causes and ideals.




Too true. Honestly i forgot all the difference between liberal, conservative, left/right etc...right after i passed the test in elementary school. I know whats right and wrong, and to me politics and government are all the same shit different piles.


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1490135 - 04/24/03 05:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I agree. the system is broke. John Stewart and the other media puppets tell the mind-numbed majority what to think, annd they do. Ican almost hear people here droning "anything bush does is bad... anything bush does is bad"



Maybe if we destroyed TV, we'd be able to think for ourselves.

Jr


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1490329 - 04/24/03 06:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Are you Fadedpinkwings by any chance?


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1490375 - 04/24/03 06:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I agree.  the system is broke. John Stewart and the other media puppets tell the mind-numbed majority what to think, annd they do.  Ican almost hear people here droning "anything bush does is bad... anything bush does is bad"




So you believe that world media is pushing on everyone  that bush is bad, or pointing out americas' faults and thus swaying the masses against bushes' richeous war on evil...or was it terrorism? 
And because of that, america is the only country that truly sees the threat that is about to gobble us up then hide back under the bed? :smirk:



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1490430 - 04/24/03 07:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

OK,i'm sure that johnny stewart and the other sources you glean your news from might not have mentioned this, but the production of oil in Iraq will only be 1.1m barrels per day. So, lets say that we are there JUST for the oil, and we get 1.1m barrels per day (note, this is us just overtly TAKING it, not paying the pump people anything, having them work as slave labor, noone over there making anything, and us not SPENDING anything to get this oil, 100% profit). Prices of oil (just an estiate, I haven't checked in a few days, too busy following the stock market) are "around' 83 dollars per barrel. so, thats 91.3 million dollars per day of oil we'd be "stealing". Now, if the war cost us 80 billion dollars,, and we aren't even making a billion dollars per day, thats around 83 days of doing NOTHING with their oil but plundering it for ourselves before we even break even for the COST of the wra. Not to mention the huge amounts of humanitarian aide we are putting forth, the amounts of food, and increasing the salary of the police by ONE THOUSAND fold. So, if we are doign all of this for oil, it seems we are losing a few billion dollars here. Maybe I've done too much "thinking" or used too many "facts" for the liberals out there to understand this, but taking over Iraq just for the oil isn't profitable. Mayeb Saudi Arabia.... :-)



Pz


johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: To Sum It Up... Iraq for the Anti-Warrers [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1490436 - 04/24/03 07:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Actually the current price of oil is $26.65 per barrel.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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