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OfflineBangvan
Sir
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Westcoast
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
What to do with spent cakes?
    #1481246 - 04/22/03 03:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Hi, this is my first post but I've been reading for a while. Thanks to all the information on this site I have 4 fruiting B+ PF-tek BRF jars. They will soon stop fruiting though, and I was wondering what I can do with the spent jars? I didn't get much of a harvest and I wanted to try casing these. I read that its possible by using a casing tek and just grinding the spent cakes and using that to colonize the case. Can someone recommend a good tek or post the steps up? I don't have a pressure cooker and would preffer a tek that requires pasteurization or an even easier way to sterilize. Is poo better than "miracle grow for vegetables"? Or should I say, which one is easier to sterilize. I don't want to fill up a whole 66qt rubbermaid container with a case, but was looking to case a few baking pans. How many spent cakes should I put in 1 baking pan? Thanks a lot in advance.


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Offlinefugu
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 2,223
Loc: istanbul
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Bangvan]
    #1481297 - 04/22/03 03:31 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

>miracle grow for vegetables
ask someone for it i don t know
yes if you fill the casing soil into the jars and put it in boiling water for 30 min.
and then set it into an incubator at 30c for 1 day
the next day put it in boiling water for 30 min again an sit again at 30c in incubator for 1 day and boil again.you can use the casing soil.

ask for 30 min. maybe it is 1 hour.
if you want to use poo search from faq
this is one of the popular ones
50/50+ Casing Tek

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a real easy casing mix that works great for cubensis, panaeolus, and other species. Our growers and people worldwide have had great success with this easy very casing method.

At the end of this document, look and read the update 50/50 + (PLUS) Casing Tek. We highly recommend the 50/50+ tek over any other casing tek out there.. The addition of limestone and crushed oyster shell to the 50/50 mix makes a huge difference.

We suggest using plastic trays. You can buy ones at Home depot that can be cut and taped to any... size you want. Look in the gardening section by the seedling transplanting trays. They are long, black and thin. They can be cut and taped very easily. If you cant find these trays use anything that will fit to your aquarium size. The idea is to get the best non-transparent (see through) container you can find in the space you have to work with. You can cut and tape these to fit the exact size of the bottom of your aquarium, leaving about a 1/2" on all sides for the moisture to drip around the tray and down the sides of the glass and not into your tray. You want to use plastic tape and not masking tape or it will fall apart when it gets soggy. You also want to use trays that are black or non transparent so light doesn't seep through to the substrate below or the mushrooms may fruit from under the casing layer and up the sides of the casing instead of on top of the casing layer where they should.

OK, now the fun part. Take vermiculite, first mix in a bowl with water until its real moist, squeezing excess water out, then drop about 1/2" layer across the bottom of your container. Then take fresh cakes from the jars, cut them like a cucumber into slices about 2-3" thick, or for best results leave them whole. Put these slices over the layer of vermiculite. Take some colonized substrate.. and gently crumble to fill in the places in between the the slices of substrate.. so your entire layer of substrate is pretty much filled without gaps in between the slices or the sides.
Note, we recommend cutting out any uncolonized part of the cake/substrate first.. then what you have left is 100% colonized. If this does not apply, then move to next step.
Next, take a mixture of 50% peat moss and 50% vermiculite, sterilized or pasteurized (more info on that at the bottom) real moist, once again squeeze out excess water, then just lightly place it over the mycelium layer, about a 1/2" to 3/4"" just so its cover the mycelium layer. You can also use a little deeper layer, about 3/4" to 1" to allow for a stronger casing layer that will be helpful for more flushes. The downside is it takes a little longer to colonize... and fruit.. but in the long run is well worth it. Only use the 1" thick casing layer if your using whole cakes or a deep substrate. Your substrate depth should be no more then about 4" though. Put your container back in your aquarium right on top of perlite. I would recommend keeping the light off for the first week, but even leaving it on for 12/12 will not make that much difference. Within about 2 days you'll start seeing the mycelium overtake the casing layer, you want to add a light amount of 50/50 mix over these first high spots so all the mycelium is coming to the surface around the same time, although this is not written in stone.
Within a week to 2 weeks it will be almost completely covered in mycelium. Then the mycelium will stop growing for a few days.. the mycelium network is establishing itself... becoming stronger and stronger preparing to produce mushrooms. Then pinning will start... .lots of bright white small dots about the size of a pen head.. These will form into mushrooms soon thereafter... Harvest time is usually 10-21 days weeks after casing. As a general rule.. you do not want to mist your casing during this colonization period,. provided you have adequate humidity and fresh air. The ideal humidity for casings is 82% -92%. The reason you don?t want to be misting your casing soil. during this period is because water condensation build up on the mycelium is not good.. it will slow the growth down of he mycelium and possible introduce contaminants easier. The mycelium will pull most if its moisture from the casing soil itself and from the humidity in the air. Ideally, you should try and harvest your first flush all around the same time, or within a 24 hour period. Then put a light sprinkling of 50/50 mix back over the spots where you pulled the mushrooms from. You want to put down fresh casing in those places where you pulled the mushrooms from to help protect that substrate below.. make sure the casing soil has been sterilized or pasteurized. The reason you want to try and pull all the mushrooms around the same time... is this will help the mycelium network recover faster and prepare for a second flush. You want to start misting again after you have harvested your first flush... .give it a real good heavy misting.. so the soil looks moist again.. but not saturated... . you shouldn't need to mist again until after the next flush.. and so on. Now this is not written in stone... this is only if your growing conditions is ideal.. growing outside can be different... .you may need to light mist the soil every few days because the soil dries out faster... . so the rule to follow.. is if your casing soil looks real dry... .starts changing color and getting a real light dried out soil look..then go ahead and give it a light misting. Also, if the casing soil has started pulling away from the side of the container, put in some fresh moist casing soil in there. After the first flush... you can look forward to your next flush in about a week. You will get huge flushes from this method. If somewhere along the way you start to see contamination in any part of the soil, cut it out immediately, making a big cut several inches away from the contaminated part. Putting down a big fresh spot of casing soil where you cut it out. Its pretty typical for casings to get hit by the green mold Trichoderma after a few flushes... but by keeping your hands, arms and tools clean.. and wearing a face mask.. and using fresh sterilized soil for patches... this will help prevent it from happening to soon.



50/50+ (Plus) Casing Tek
Adding 4% agricultural hydrated lime and 15% crushed oyster shell, by volume, to the over all 50/50 mix is a much better casing soil. The soil seems to give the mushrooms more support so when your harvesting your not digging out deep chunks of mycelium from the substrate, instead they pull out real easy from the surface. The mushrooms also seem to grow much bigger this way... . being they have a stronger base into the mycelium network. They also like the lime and calcium from the oyster shell, and you will see less contamination in the casing soil with the lime added. When mixing the casing substrate, a lot of the oyster shell and lime sinks to the bottom, so mix it and squeeze it real good when placing over the substrate.
IMPORTANT NOTE:
Be sure you buy horticultural hydrated lime, not dolomitic or other kinds, or it will burn the mycelium and they wont grow. So look at nurseries for horticultural hydrated lime, it usually says "to sweeten the soil on the bag".
NEW UPDATE:
Although most people including us have great success from using horticultural hydrated lime, some do not. They end up burning there mycelium or the mycelium just never colonizes through to the casing soil. We think perhaps the hydrated lime they are buying has a much higher alkaline level then then the Hi Yield brand we are using. Hi Yield brand is our preference and works great for us. But just to play it on the safe side, we are going to suggest you buy calcium carbonate. A ground calcium carbonate is a gentle buffer. Some brands of hydrated lime are not. Calcium carbonate is basically ground up limestone, a soil sweetener. It works just as good if not better then horticultural hydrated lime. Its a much safer bet as well. You should be able to find calcium carbonate in just about any garden supply store.

Another tip, look for the large chunked oyster shell sold at feed stores. The fine powder shell is fine, the but the large chunked shell gives a much better texture and the mushrooms grow even better on this soil. You can find oyster shell anywhere birds are sold, or at most feed stores.

The exact mix, to fill a filter patch bag 3/4 full is:

15 1/2 cups vermiculite
15 1/2 cups peat moss
4 1/2 cups crushed oyster shell
1.2 cups of hydrated lime
1 cup short of a gallon of bottled water

This will make enough for a good 3-6 medium to large casings depending on how big they are.


Tips on sterilizing and pasteurizing substrate:
There has been a lot of discussion on weather its better to sterilize the casing soil or not. In my friends studies.. he has found that sterilizing is better. Some ppl like to pasteurize it. That's OK to.. but he prefers to sterilize it. My friend buys filter patch bags from Fungi Perfecti ... these are large autoclavable bags (meaning they can go in the pressure canner and survive the heat without melting) with a filter on them for gas exchange... although for sterilizing the casing soil, the patch does not matter. Basically after mixing up all the dry ingredients, (pulling out all the sticks from the peat moss) for the 50/50 + mix... add in your water... mix real good... .have your bag handy... squeeze out most of the water from the casing mix... so its just slightly dripping... then put it into the bag.. filled about 3/4 full. Put this in your pressure canner.. keeping it away from the sides... sometimes they will melt if touching the sides... .and sterilize at 15 p.s.i for 45 minutes. Let this completely cool before using... . Now at this point.. the pressure cooker is going to take out some of the moisture.. just make sure when you go to use it as your casing soil... you squeeze out the water till its barely dripping.. and not running water. Here is another strange kicker... . my friend puts his bag outside... in the shade... with the top folded/rolled down.. with a plate on their to hold the bag shut ... so no bugs can fly in... and just lets it sit outside for a few days or weeks before using it. When you sterilize it.. you?re killing any eggs of larva or other unwanted bacteria in the vermiculite.. or mostly peat moss... and then.. well.. this is only his theory.. no scientific data to support this... .but by putting it back outside... it regains some of the needed micro organisms' that the casing soil lost during sterilization. Now perhaps his theory is right.. or perhaps he's just been lucky... but he has seen a lot less Trichoderma hit his casings since he started doing this. Another important note.. when the time comes to use the soil.. make sure the moisture content is right..if to moist.. squeeze the water out till its barely dripping.. if to dry.. then add in some bottled mountain spring water then squeeze it back out.
Another tip.. if you don?t have the resources to buy the Fungi Perfect filter patch bags.. the plastic bags the peat moss and vermiculite come in work fine as well.. Just cut the rubber zipper seal off them so they don?t melt... and use them the same as above.. just keeping them away from the edge of the cooker.
Additional update, use a layer of 50/50+ casing tek as the bottom layer instead of plain vermiculite, it works better.
If you don?t own a pressure canner/cooker .. then pasteurize this mix. You pasteurize by putting it inside.. say an old pillow case.. and put it on a boiling pot of water.. temp around 150f for 1 hour.

A tip on humidity:
If you don?t have a humidity gauge... one sure way my friend has found to determine humidity from looking at his gauges, is by judging the condensation on the walls of your grow chamber. For casings you want around 82%-92% humidity. If you see the walls of your grow chamber just sweating away with condensation... and their dripping constantly.. then you more then likely have 100% humidity, this is fine for cakes.. but not casings. To judge 82%-92% humidity.. you should only see light condensation on the walls.. with the occasional dripping. This is after some fresh air has pumped into your chamber and you let it sit for an hour or two. Also.. those cheap plastic gauges you buy from pet stores.. they don?t work. Even most of the ones sold by cigar stores are made by plastic companies. For a good analog meter.. cigar stores carry one made by Cigar Perfect for $12. This model is made by an instrumental company, and not a plastic company and works well.
Almost every singe flush you see on this www.thehawkseye.com web site.. has used the 50/50+ formula described above for casing... it works!!!!



--------------------
mushroom culture history making ...Mr. Allan is the best .....


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InvisibleRoadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,598
Loc: Snoqualmie, Wa.
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Bangvan]
    #1481316 - 04/22/03 03:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Spent cakes are not going to produce anymore fruits.

If they are not completely spent...you could spawn some horse poo with them.
The poo would colonize...then fruit some monsters.

horse poo tek pictorial

good luck!


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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Offlinefugu
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 2,223
Loc: istanbul
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Roadkill]
    #1481370 - 04/22/03 04:06 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

bangvan.it seems you are the luckiest guy on here in his first post.
enjoy.and wellcome.sir.


--------------------
mushroom culture history making ...Mr. Allan is the best .....


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Offlinefugu
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 2,223
Loc: istanbul
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: fugu]
    #1481380 - 04/22/03 04:10 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

just a reminder.don t forget to take some prints.from your mushes.


--------------------
mushroom culture history making ...Mr. Allan is the best .....


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OfflineUnknown
Confused,dizzy,wheream I again?
Registered: 01/07/02
Posts: 380
Loc: MA
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Roadkill]
    #1481512 - 04/22/03 05:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You can use spent cakes and casings in an outdoor patch and get fruits.


--------------------
The above is just like,my opinion man


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InvisibleRoadkill
Retired Shroomery Mod
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 22,598
Loc: Snoqualmie, Wa.
Trusted Cultivator
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1481522 - 04/22/03 05:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

not if its completely spent.


--------------------
Laterz, Road

Who the hell you callin crazy?
You wouldn't know what crazy was if Charles Manson was eating froot loops on your front porch!


Brainiac said:
PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineUnknown
Confused,dizzy,wheream I again?
Registered: 01/07/02
Posts: 380
Loc: MA
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Roadkill]
    #1481577 - 04/22/03 07:14 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'll trust you. I guess I have a misconception about "spent".I thought it was when it just wouldn't fruit anymore.


--------------------
The above is just like,my opinion man


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Invisibledog
straw dog

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 2,790
Loc: Route 66
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Bangvan]
    #1481991 - 04/22/03 11:59 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Here's what my friend did with some  spent B+ cakes a while back.

The results weren't spectacular, but it was his first casing and he got some nice fruits.  :smile:   


--------------------


Fascism (fash'izem) n. A governmental system marked by a centralized dictatorship, stringent socioeconomic controls, and often belligerent nationalism. see also: the Bush Administration.


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OfflineBangvan
Sir
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Westcoast
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: dog]
    #1484453 - 04/23/03 12:01 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks a lot for the replies guys.

Fugu- I am very lucky, but this is actually my 2nd attempt, on the first one I wasted a whole syringe of ecuadorians on 10 jars that all got contaminated because I didn't know much about sterility back then, but I learned my lesson and am lucky now.

I don't see why spent cakes would not produce any more fruits. There is still mycellium in them, and spores, just no food to produce fruits. From what I understand, adding cakes to casings is not for food, but to colonize them, so they would just take over the new substrate and start producing fruits. I'm not exactly sure what peat moss is but if its food then my idea should work. If not, then I should go with that poo tek, and that should give me some good flushes.

I have to make a decision quick because the cakes are still fruiting, I think theyre on theyre 2nd or 3rd flushes. I should probably just make the poo substrate asap and use the partially-spent cakes.


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OfflinePerk
The Myth...
Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 116
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Bangvan]
    #1484505 - 04/23/03 12:14 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

[Quote]I should probably just make the poo substrate asap and use the partially-spent cakes.



Good idea...and any time one of the moderators of this site (ie: Roadkill) answers a query you may have, it's always smart to listen to what they have to say. they're experienced and have some great info.


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OfflineBangvan
Sir
Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 15
Loc: Westcoast
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: What to do with spent cakes? [Re: Perk]
    #1484531 - 04/23/03 12:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Ya I'm reading roadkill's log right now, I'm going to attempt that. Just got a couple of questions...

I live in a suburban area and don't know of any near-by farms where I could get some fresh dung. Would store brought dung be nutritious enough? Of course I would have to pasteurize it to kill contams.

And I've been seeing a lot of straw/poo combos, would that work better than straight poo?

Last question, since my cakes are still fruiting but I want to save some of the food in them so they aren't completely spent, is there any way to stall them from fruiting? They are currently in my poor-mans terrarium (2 rubbermaid containers with a water heater on the bottom one and a lid on the top and moist perilite on the bottom, which has worked great btw). I want to get the poo and pasteurize it asap and don't want to waste the cakes in the mean time.


Edited by Bangvan (04/23/03 12:28 AM)


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Amazon Shop for: ½ Pint Jars, Brown Rice Flour, Calcium Carbonate, Oyster Shell, Peat, Perlite, Pressure Cooker, Vermiculite

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