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OfflineoO_wombat_Oo
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ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus?
    #1480289 - 04/21/03 10:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Edit: After consideration, I think this is Agaricus, although I think it?s probably neither of the two I mention below, but here?s the original post that details the find:-

Okay, so after cruising mykoweb, I?m pretty sure I?ve found Agaricus praeclaresquamosus (a.k.a A.meleagris) although not everything quite matches up, there?s some possibility it could be Agaricus augustus, or something else...

Firstly, mykoweb says that A.praeclaresquamosus has a strong odor of "phenol". Unfortunately, I don?t know what phenol smells like. (Can someone please describe this smell?) In any case, this mushrooms smells like a mushroom, nothing peculiar.

Secondly, the cap certainly has brownish-yellow scales that are aparantly associated more with A.augustus, as opposed to "greyish brown" scales of A.praeclaresquamosus.

Thirdly, mykoweb also says that A.praeclaresquamosus slowly becomes vinaceous (i.e. the colour of red wine) when injured. I cut mine about half an hour ago and there has been no colour change, save a possible slight yellowing, which is, again aparantly a trait of A.augustus.

Fourth is the season. Mykoweb says that A.praeclaresquamosus fruits in "mid to early winter" (which gives me the shits, it should be listed in temperatures - what?s a Californian winter translate to on other parts of the globe!?) Assuming a Californian winter is similair to an Australian winter, then that hits the nail on the head: it?s close to early winter here now. A.augustus, on the other hand, fruits in the "warmer months of the year" (in California, anyway).

Lastly, the spore print is dark brown.

The habitat was in woodchips and mulch in a public garden.

You might be wondering why I think it?s more probable that this mushroom is A.praeclaresquamosus than A.augustus. It?s becaue despite descriptions, my mushrooms look so much more like A.praeclaresquamosus, judging by the pictures on mykoweb. Check ?em out for yourself.


Mykoweb: A.praeclaresquamosus
Mykoweb: A.augustus


I?m certainly no expert, so keep in mind the possibility that this is neither A.praeclaresquamosus nor A.augustus, and that I?ve just found some other variety. They?re just my completely inept guesses. :wink:

In short, can anyone give a positive ID of these mushrooms?



I had to tear the veil on the mushroom on the right in order to expose those pale gills. This photo makes the scales look more greyish and less yellowish than they really are.


This image inparticular, looks most like mykoweb?s photo of A.praeclaresquamosus.





Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/21/03 11:45 PM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: oO_wombat_Oo]
    #1480416 - 04/21/03 11:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Odd my wife found apparently the same Agaricus in a heavily mulched area about two months ago! It matches the description you gave to a tee and I too exposed the new gills to check for the rose color of A.campestris (we have a variety of brown champignons in the Willamette valley) I concluded it an A. augustus due to the LACK of a phenolic(Bandaids,plastic,new car) aroma,
I find it amazing if I would have had my camera I could have posted virtually identical images from half the world away!.
Bon Chance! WR


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OfflineoO_wombat_Oo
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1480504 - 04/21/03 11:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting. I'd like to think it's augustus (yummo), but I'm just too cautious to dive and cook 'em up (not that the ones photographed are in particularly good condition), especially since A.praeclaresquamosus (which they look at lot like to my eye) is toxic.

But you're right, I definitely can't smell anything phenolic. They just smell like plain old mushrooms to me. There is also no reddy coloured bruising that is supposed to happen with A.praeclaresquamosus. If anything, there's only a slight yellowing.

The thing that makes me really skeptical, however, is that red colouration where the stem meets the cap. That's exactly how the mykoweb images of the toxic A.praeclaresquamosus look.

The other thing of course, is the lack of scales below the ring on the stem, which A.augustus is supposed to have.

The more I consider it, the more sure I am that this is neither.


Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/21/03 11:43 PM)


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: oO_wombat_Oo]
    #1480802 - 04/22/03 01:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The "phenolic" odor referred to is often also described as "metallic" or resembling library paste or ink. It's not a pleasant odor.

To check bruising in Agaricus species, cut the mushroom in half vertically and scrape the inside of the cut with the knife edge - not gently, you want to bruise the flesh. It can take up to a hour for the color changes to occur. Note that color changes can be restricted to a small area (often the base of the stem). Also watch for changes that start one color then become another - some bruise yellow then turn brownish or pinkish.

I typically find that the odor is strongest near the base of the stem and where the stem and cap join. If no odor is obvious, try crushing the base of the stem with your fingers and sniffing a bit more - sometimes that makes the odor more obvious. In teaching people about the phenolic Agaricus species, I have found that some people are apparently incapable of smelling the odor, so that's a possibility unless you've found some where you can smell it. It can also sometimes be quite faint. There are also, confusingly enough, Agaricus species with very little smell.

Based on your description I think it unlikely that they are Agaricus augustus. That species almost always has a strong odor of almonds. If you're unsure of that odor, find a bottle of almond extract and sniff it. It's a fairly sweet smell, and usually pretty strong.

Please bruise a specimen as described above and let us know how it turns out. Also, could you tell us how big the biggest one is? Finally, how firm are they - Agaricus species range from almost rock-like to soft as marshmallows.

In the end, I should mention that Agaricus is one of the more difficult genera to identify mushrooms to species in. Before I met Dr Kerrigan (he's the Agaricus authority), I regularly hunted and ate Agaricus. Afterward it took me 3 years before I worked up enough confidence to start eating them again. He'll be here in Denver in July, so I may find myself unable to eat them again for awhile. So don't be discouraged if you find Agaricus difficult - most of the professional mycologists I know take more time to identify them than most mushrooms (except a few distinctive species) and often won't commit to an ID without using a microscope and a lot of time.

Happy mushrooming!


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OfflineoO_wombat_Oo
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1481558 - 04/22/03 06:48 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Cool, thanks for the length reply, I appreciate it! :smile:

I'll bruise one for you now...


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OfflineoO_wombat_Oo
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1481576 - 04/22/03 07:13 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, I went and bruised the flesh, here are some photographs. More importantly, I did what you said and mushed the base of the stem between my fingers and smelled it, and I think I did actually get a funny whiff. A nostalgic kind of smell, but I just can't put my finger on it. If I did actually smell anything at all, it was very faint.


This is before I bruised the flesh at all, I'd just cut it in half here



This is seconds after I bruised the flesh


  Edit: This is an hour and a half after bruising. Note that the base of the stems are complete mush after I squished them constantly over the past hour to try and smell stuff. I think that deep orangey colour they have gone is more to do with dirt and stuff getting mushed in there than anything else...but I dunno...
  You can see the stems have gone quite yellow where I scraped them with the knife. The half on the far left of the photo is a "control" half - I didn't bruise it at all after I cut the mushroom in half, and it's cropped out of the first two images.


  I'll make another update in an hour or so and let you see what it looks like then. (Edit: done, see above :wink: )


Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/22/03 08:54 AM)


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OfflineoO_wombat_Oo
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: oO_wombat_Oo]
    #1481586 - 04/22/03 07:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Got it! The smell is ALMOND. Definitely! Ohhhh, this is an exciting development. :smile: Nostalgic because my grandma used to make these extremely sweet, crumbly European almond biscuit things and that's what it smells like! Not nutty mind you, but a very sharp, sweet, spicey - almost synthetic - kind of almond smell. The smell I reckon you'd get if you sniffed almond essence or flavouring, not the woody smell of the actual nuts themselves.

As I search more and more pictures on A.augustus, I've become almost positive that's these are not them. Mostly due to the lack of the "scales" on the stem beneith the ring. But there is a faint almond essence smell.

Cool! What next?


Edit:
Damn, well I just asked my flatmate and his girlfriend to smell it and neither of them said it smelled like Almond essence to them. They said it smelt like nothing. Maybe I'm imagining things, but I double checked and it definitely does smell like concentrated almond essence to me, albiet quite faintly and only when I crushed the bottom of the stem. I hope I'm not mistaking phenol for this smell. 


Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/22/03 07:35 AM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: oO_wombat_Oo]
    #1481813 - 04/22/03 10:24 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Like T-man said Agaricus are hard to nail down to species w/o a lot of microscopic work and more experience.I am sure I have found A.augustus several times but am not confident enough to consume them,while I have consumed literally hundreds of the pink gilled agaricus (A campestris).I get most of my kicks from the hunt anyway.
Very cool find,please keep us posted on these and what you find out.WR
PS be wary of what you are smelling your description of the smell could be phenolic.Here are some phenolic smells to check against.
bandaids
plastic
sour metallic
cloves
bannana
apple
(fruit smells are all "off")
bag balm
carbolated petroleum jelly
electronics circuit boards
All are various phenolic aromas as described in flavor testing beer
IMO the almond smell of augustus should be an earthy sweet smell,mushroomy,yet with overtones of almond.But definatly with an earthy mushroom overall aroma ,any other odors which jump out I would be suspect of.
Bon Chance WR


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Edited by whiterasta (04/22/03 10:33 AM)


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: oO_wombat_Oo]
    #1481920 - 04/22/03 11:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It's unfortunate that the odor is faint. With a strong almond odor I would go with Agaricus subrufescens. As this photograph shows, they look pretty close. The problem is that these are so strongly almondy that David Arora lists "Almond Mushroom" as the common name for them. He even says that making cream of mushroom soup with them results is soup that tastes like you dumped a bottle of almond extract into it.

Maybe this is where we do what I see a lot of professionals do when they can't use a microscope and chemical reagents and a monograph and take lots of time - we call it "close to" Agaricus subrufescens and move on to the next mushroom.

Happy mushrooming!


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Anonymous

Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1482235 - 04/22/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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Offlineruskifile
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: oO_wombat_Oo]
    #1483244 - 04/22/03 07:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

hi wombat

I found these recently which had a very distinct and quite strong 'chemical' type odour which I guess would be called phenolic..more unknown Agaricus

....I thought maybe they were Agaricus xanthoderma because of the smell and the fact it did bruise yellow at the base...








but i'm sorta undecided now  :confused: 


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: ruskifile]
    #1484341 - 04/22/03 11:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

As suggested above, cut it in half and bruise it and let us know what happens. BTW, when you collect, don't cut off the base of the stem. There are a lot of mushrooms where we need to see specific features there to identify them accurately. Always make sure you get the entire base of the stem (some of them are almost like taproots).

Happy mushrooming!


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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1485263 - 04/23/03 06:08 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

DO all poisonous agaricus have a strong yellow staining like Xanthoderma, or do some have more subtle staining?


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Offlinecanid
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1485275 - 04/23/03 06:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

some, at least A. californicus, will often not bruise noticably on thier own but will do so in KOH.


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Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it.
If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.


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Offlineruskifile
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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1485384 - 04/23/03 09:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

As suggested above, cut it in half and bruise it and let us know what happens. BTW, when you collect, don't cut off the base of the stem. There are a lot of mushrooms where we need to see specific features there to identify them accurately. Always make sure you get the entire base of the stem (some of them are almost like taproots).

Happy mushrooming!




uh...oops hehe...thanks ToxicMan


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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: canid]
    #1485446 - 04/23/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

A californicus has a shiny cap and the gills are a subtly different color.A terrible bellyache taught me the difference between it and A.campestris.I am with you and T-man ,MM the more I know the less I eat :shocked:.I stick with the NO-Brainers now like morels,oysters,chantrelles,puffballs and even then we only have small portions.
BTW it is an great honor and asset to have access to such knowlegeable minds! My profound thanks to you all :wink: WR


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Re: ID Challange! Anyone know about Agaricus? [Re: ruskifile]
    #1485504 - 04/23/03 10:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

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