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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Seuss]
    #14871544 - 08/04/11 10:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote from the link

>in the absence of atmospheric pressure water will spontaneously convert into vapor, which would cause the moisture in a victim’s mouth and eyes to quickly boil away. The same effect would cause water in the muscles and soft tissues of the body to evaporate, prompting some parts of the body to swell to twice their usual size after a few moments

>>Stonehenge said:
The water in your blood in the hand would tend to boil in the zero pressure of space.


--------------------
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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14871927 - 08/04/11 11:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

For what its worth, some guy on NASA's site agree's with me: 

Quote:

If you don't try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal experiments confirm -- that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness.


emphasis added

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote from the link

>in the absence of atmospheric pressure water will spontaneously convert into vapor, which would cause the moisture in a victim’s mouth and eyes to quickly boil away. The same effect would cause water in the muscles and soft tissues of the body to evaporate, prompting some parts of the body to swell to twice their usual size after a few moments

>>Stonehenge said:
The water in your blood in the hand would tend to boil in the zero pressure of space.




How does that quote back up your claim?  The cited examples refer to water located on external surfaces which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.  The water in your blood in your hand is not on an external surface which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.

What evidence of your claim do you have?

A bit technical, and perhaps the article's author didn't want to get into such things, but water spontaneously evaporating is not boiling.  Boiling is when the partial pressure of the liquid equals/exceeds the atmospheric pressure.  Spontaneous vaporization can occur for any number of reasons at below the boiling point.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: johnm214]
    #14872038 - 08/04/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ive never heard that the blood would boil (except for movies), and I dont see why it would.  Your skin is still keeping it under pressure.  Ill read some of those links later.

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: johnm214]
    #14872070 - 08/04/11 12:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
A bit technical, and perhaps the article's author didn't want to get into such things, but water spontaneously evaporating is not boiling.  Boiling is when the partial pressure of the liquid equals/exceeds the atmospheric pressure.  Spontaneous vaporization can occur for any number of reasons at below the boiling point.




A bit technical, but I think you meant that boiling is when the vapor pressure of the substance equals/exceeds the atmospheric pressure.  :wink:

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14872338 - 08/04/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury"

No one said it was immediate. And anyway the guy is just estimating

>How does that quote back up your claim?  The cited examples refer to water located on external surfaces which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.  The water in your blood in your hand is not on an external surface which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.

>>The same effect would cause water in the muscles and soft tissues of the body to evaporate, prompting some parts of the body to swell to twice their usual size after a few moments.

If anyone thinks the skin or outer tissues will maintain normal pressure on internal parts, they are welcome to try exposing themselves to a vacuum though i don't recommend it.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14872452 - 08/04/11 01:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
A bit technical, and perhaps the article's author didn't want to get into such things, but water spontaneously evaporating is not boiling.  Boiling is when the partial pressure of the liquid equals/exceeds the atmospheric pressure.  Spontaneous vaporization can occur for any number of reasons at below the boiling point.




A bit technical, but I think you meant that boiling is when the vapor pressure of the substance equals/exceeds the atmospheric pressure.  :wink:




lol, yeah, you're correct of course: the partial pressure of the gas component


Quote:

Stonehenge said:
"exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury"

No one said it was immediate. And anyway the guy is just estimating




I'm not claiming that particular assertion is disputed.  It was included as it was part of the discussion which claimed the blood would not boil when a person is exposed to space.

Quote:

>How does that quote back up your claim?  The cited examples refer to water located on external surfaces which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.  The water in your blood in your hand is not on an external surface which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.

>>The same effect would cause water in the muscles and soft tissues of the body to evaporate, prompting some parts of the body to swell to twice their usual size after a few moments.

If anyone thinks the skin or outer tissues will maintain normal pressure on internal parts, they are welcome to try exposing themselves to a vacuum though i don't recommend it.





I'm not sure what the relevance of your reply is.  I asked what the source mentioned by Seuss that you cited had to do with your claim: it didn't seem to justify it.  Further, I've asked what the basis for your claim that the blood in your hand would boil if your hand was exposed to space.  You have not answered.

Please provide the justification for your claim.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: johnm214]
    #14872488 - 08/04/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

john, i know you can read so i must assume its your pride which prevents you from admitting you were wrong. No one goes very long without being wrong unless they say nothing. We can quibble about whether rapid evaporation is the same as boiling but there is no point in it. Believe what you wish, i'm done with that particular topic.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14872517 - 08/04/11 02:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
john, i know you can read so i must assume its your pride which prevents you from admitting you were wrong.




Lame, as usual.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14872520 - 08/04/11 02:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
john, i know you can read so i must assume its your pride which prevents you from admitting you were wrong. No one goes very long without being wrong unless they say nothing. We can quibble about whether rapid evaporation is the same as boiling but there is no point in it. Believe what you wish, i'm done with that particular topic.




I didn't really care about this particular subject, but john is right that you erroneously used Seuss's link as support for your claim.  The quoted portion of the text doesn't talk about blood boiling.  It mentions liquids outside the blood vessels which aren't constrained by the body's vasculature.  Furthermore, a hand exposed to vacuum is still connected to the rest of the rest of the body which is still at pressure.  Either the blood inside the hand stays at pressure, or the hand bursts.  The blood would not boil unless the hand burst.

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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14872616 - 08/04/11 02:22 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
john, i know you can read so i must assume its your pride which prevents you from admitting you were wrong. No one goes very long without being wrong unless they say nothing. We can quibble about whether rapid evaporation is the same as boiling but there is no point in it. Believe what you wish, i'm done with that particular topic.




If this isn't a prideful post I don't know what is. :lol:

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

HeavyToilet said:
I'm thinking about more of an idealized situation. Like if there was such a way that you could have some kind of seal that would have your hand in outer space, but the rest of your body inside, and the seal wasn't strong enough to cut off circulation, but would prevent the oxygen and whatnot from rushing out.

I know such a thing would probably be impossible to set up, but I'm just wondering exclusively about the temperature, or lack of feeling of molecules constantly bumping into the skin, rather than considering all the issues with setting up such a situation.





Ignoring the pressure change and all that entails, I would imagine you wouldn't feel much of anything, as if you were in room temperature, followed by a very gradual decrease in temperature due to radiative heat loss (your skin putting off more radiative energy than it takes in per period of time and thus the temperature decreasing).  Of course, your blood stream would almost certainly provide many orders of magnitude more heat to the tissue than is lossed in radiative heat loss, so perhaps nothing at all.




Thank you John, I figured as much... makes sense! :thumbup:

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14872652 - 08/04/11 02:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Your ears would probably pop like mad though huh?  Eyeballs seem like they could be very pressure sensitive (maybe Im just thinking of Total Recall? :lol:)  I wonder about your breath?  How hard would it be to maintain a pressure difference with your mouth?  (Maybe Ill ask some girls at work :wink:)

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: DieCommie]
    #14872767 - 08/04/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Now, these are the experiments they should be conducting on the International Space Station! I can just imagine a bunch of Russians taking turns sticking their heads out into space. :grin:

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #14872844 - 08/04/11 03:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm pretty sure they did do these experiments.  With animals.

Edit: for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5972265

Edited by ChuangTzu (08/04/11 03:12 PM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14872872 - 08/04/11 03:14 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
I'm pretty sure they did do these experiments.  With animals.




Or on humans in large vacuum chambers before space flight.  I would guess from some Mengele like character.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: DieCommie]
    #14873105 - 08/04/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Chuang wrote:

>you erroneously used Seuss's link as support for your claim.  The quoted portion of the text doesn't talk about blood boiling.  It mentions liquids outside the blood vessels which aren't constrained by the body's vasculature.

So you don't think water spontaneously turning into vapor is another term for boiling? You want to see a pot with bubbles coming up from the bottom before you call it boiling? You did see the part where they said the muscles and soft tissues would swell up after a few moments? Notice i didn't give a time frame for this to happen nor did i say the hand would explode. It would rapidly swell due to the water rapidly turning into vapor which everyplace else is considered boiling. You think the thin walls of the blood vessels would withstand a pressure difference of nearly 15 lb per sq inch? If they could do that, then why would the hand swell so rapidly?

It seems we have a dispute over what constitutes boiling. I say it's water turning rapidly into vapor which usually has bubbles as part of the process. Are you saying there would be no bubbles or what is the argument being made that the blood would not boil?

Here is a link which shows that the temperature at which water will boil is -70f in a hard vacuum

http://www.engineersedge.com/h2o_boil_pressure.htm

The blood in the hand being at a temperature some 160 degrees higher than the boiling point will surely boil. Doesn't that make sense? It may take a few moments for the blood to boil since the link seuss gave said it took a few moments for the tissues to swell but i don't see how you can get around it boiling. If it's still attached to the body the poor person will find his blood spurting out as the blood vessels disintegrate and he needs to close that opening and give up the hand if need be. Not an experiment i'd like to try.


--------------------
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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14873232 - 08/04/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
So you don't think water spontaneously turning into vapor is another term for boiling?




Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.  Every liquid is vaporizing and re-condensing all the time at some rate.

Quote:


You did see the part where they said the muscles and soft tissues would swell up after a few moments?




Yes, it's talking about interstitial fluids.  Where did it say that blood, which is contained in pressurized vessels, would do this?

Quote:

Notice i didn't give a time frame for this to happen nor did i say the hand would explode.




So what?

Quote:

It would rapidly swell due to the water rapidly turning into vapor




Why do you think that water is coming from the blood?

Quote:


You think the thin walls of the blood vessels would withstand a pressure difference of nearly 15 lb per sq inch?




It's irrelevant what I think.  I'm just saying that you failed to support your argument. 

Quote:


It seems we have a dispute over what constitutes boiling.




Perhaps, but that is not at issue here.  That's a completely separate matter.  Your argument was not supported by Seuss's link.  Anything else you bring up is just a distraction.

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14873310 - 08/04/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ask me if i care about your opinion? Base it on facts and we will get somewhere. You simply nay say everything which is boring. I say i have amply supported the fact that the blood boils when exposed to space. You have shown no evidence that blood vessels are able to withstand those forces.

And when you say no it isn't

My reply is "yes it is"


--------------------
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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14873470 - 08/04/11 05:47 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Ask me if i care about your opinion?




Your previous post repeatedly asked me what I think.  That is you (seemingly) caring about my opinion.  Regardless, I never actually provided my opinion so I have no idea what you're talking about.  My issue is with the way you form arguments, not with your positions. 

Quote:


You simply nay say everything which is boring.




No, I point out where you don't make sense.

Quote:

You have shown no evidence that blood vessels are able to withstand those forces.




Why should I provide this evidence?

Quote:


And when you say no it isn't

My reply is "yes it is"




:cactuarrun:

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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: Stonehenge]
    #14874793 - 08/04/11 11:42 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
The water in your blood in the hand would tend to boil in the zero pressure of space. Unless it had sun shining on it it would get cold really fast. If it did have sun shining on it you would pick up a nasty burn in short order. Now picture yourself trying to get your hand back out and it's stuck. If you did pull it out the air in the cabin would fly out the hole unless it was quickly plugged.




I don't believe this is entirely true. in space there is no convection, no air, I believe the correct way to say it is things would cool off slower and warm up faster. I think I mentioned this earlier in the post. if you put your hand out side the ship in micro gravity and no pressure, and the pressure didn't cause the blood in your hand to boil, which would be presented if your hand wasn't outside in the vacuum, I believe your hand would stay warm for a little longer then it would in absolute zero temperatures on earth.

but then again the atmosphere also holds in heat, so perhaps the temperature would be sucked out immediately in the vacuum. I suppose if your hand was sealed though, it would act like a thermas, taking forever to cool down. once it did though, it would reach absolute zero, unless the sun came up before that temperature could be achieved. I wonder if apollo 11 and apollo 12 or whoever it was that made it to the moon, took temperature readings of the soil on the moon before and after the sun came up, or went down, to see how long it would take for the temperature of the soil to cool down. I'm guessing below the surface of the moon a mile or so, the temperature has probably remained the same since the moon cooled down. whatever that may be, as there are no 'seasons' on the moon, only night and day and no atmosphere.

about the vacuum thing, yes your blood would boil, but it wouldn't boil until the vacuum broke open your blood vessels. remember, you have internal pressure, and it is mostly sealed. not your internal pressure wouldn't last long once he vacuum rips you apart, from what I heard you'd need to breathe out all your air and not hold your breath or your lungs would be ripped open from the loss of pressure.


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Re: so in theory in space....... [Re: johnm214]
    #14874867 - 08/04/11 11:58 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
For what its worth, some guy on NASA's site agree's with me: 

Quote:

If you don't try to hold your breath, exposure to space for half a minute or so is unlikely to produce permanent injury. Holding your breath is likely to damage your lungs, something scuba divers have to watch out for when ascending, and you'll have eardrum trouble if your Eustachian tubes are badly plugged up, but theory predicts -- and animal experiments confirm -- that otherwise, exposure to vacuum causes no immediate injury. You do not explode. Your blood does not boil. You do not freeze. You do not instantly lose consciousness.


emphasis added

http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/970603.html

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Quote from the link

>in the absence of atmospheric pressure water will spontaneously convert into vapor, which would cause the moisture in a victim’s mouth and eyes to quickly boil away. The same effect would cause water in the muscles and soft tissues of the body to evaporate, prompting some parts of the body to swell to twice their usual size after a few moments

>>Stonehenge said:
The water in your blood in the hand would tend to boil in the zero pressure of space.




How does that quote back up your claim?  The cited examples refer to water located on external surfaces which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.  The water in your blood in your hand is not on an external surface which would be exposed to the vacuum to some extent.

What evidence of your claim do you have?

A bit technical, and perhaps the article's author didn't want to get into such things, but water spontaneously evaporating is not boiling.  Boiling is when the partial pressure of the liquid equals/exceeds the atmospheric pressure.  Spontaneous vaporization can occur for any number of reasons at below the boiling point.




the greater mass of water may not boil, but I don't know where people get the idea that water can go straight to vapor form. it boils first. if only for a millionth of a second before it vaporizes it boils. and yes i've seen experimental videos of people putting water in a vacuum chamber, and before it vaporizes it boils momentarily. also it actually loses heat instead of gaining it, and ice crystals form as it boils. intense, water only exists in liquid form instead of solid or gas in a pressurized environment. funny though, in space ice crystals bounce around all the time, you'd think the sun would warm up the ice and cause it to vaporize. I suppose there is answer, I can't explain it.

no, you wouldn't immediately freeze, burn, boil, or what not in zero gravity zero pressure. but your ear drums would rupture, and your lungs would break like you said if there was no pressure. but this is only momentarily. nasa is probably assuming you will find another sealed exposure within minutes.

those same people experimenting on animals have seen the animals blood vessels rupture and their body turn into a giant bruise. I'm assuming in a vacuum the pressure would start dropping out of your pours, the oxygen would start getting sucked out through your pores slowly. on earth this happens at such a slow extent, and the massive pressure slows it down, also you keep breathing and circulating more oxygen. in space you have a problem, whatever pressure is released slowly from your pours, will get sucked out in seconds. I don't know if it would take awhile, or be very quick, but eventually your blood would form bubbles, that would cause you to swell.eventually your blood would boil when your body can't contain the pressure.

remember in space there is no temperature. temperature is measured by atoms vibrating. there is really no cold, only lack of heat. so by default in space with no sun light the temperature is automatically absolute zero. your body on earth absorbs light and your molecules heat up. like wise people use something called laser cooling which creates an opposite effect, somehow the lasers block any light from being absorbed into an object, and the temperature drops very quickly. without convection your body wouldn't cool down very quickly, as in space no molecules equal no temperature. but how long can your body without pressure hold in it's own heat? it might take a bit to cool down, but you would eventually make frozen meat in the freezer look like it's boiling in a pot compared to how frozen you would become.

I'm assuming the pressure in space at the international space station, is what keeps the temperature inside maintained. it is not absolute zero out side of the ship, there is no temperature out side of the ship. only with molecular movement, can temperature be achieved, inside the ship your worst worry would be the sun heating up the hull so badly that the inside of the ship cooks. as long as no pressure is released however, I can't imagine how the ship would cool down. however does that mean the hull wouldn't cool down? good question yes it probably would get very cold without outside temperature, the hull itself would have nothing to keep it warm, aside from the inner temperature being transferred to the hull.

I don't know this all gets confusing, I suppose there is a science class that explains it, or videos online I just don't know where to find them.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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