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InvisibleGroboClone
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Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Completed Oct. 27 '11] * 1
    #14795212 - 07/19/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I had some wood pellets left over from making sawdust blocks so I thought I would give bottle culture a try. King Oyster (Pleurotus eryngii) seems to be the species most suitable for this method. It can produce large fruits (8 oz.+) in smaller clusters (>6), when allowed to grow vertically it makes nice symmetrical mushrooms.

Canadian Tire stopped carrying the brand of hardwood pellets I have been using (Maine Woods) so now I'm mixing 50/50 with softwood pellets (Eagle Valley). On the plus side, today I found a source for powdered gypsum @ $7 per 22 lb bag. Supplementation is provided by wheat bran from Bulk Barn. I am using 2l "GEM" jars with a lid size between wide mouth and regular.





The idea is to try different ratios of wheat bran to sawdust and see what gives the biggest yield with this strain. I'm loosely basing my ratios on these two studies:

http://edepot.wur.nl/3564

http://www.tari.gov.tw/taric/uploads/journal_arc_49-3-7.pdf


dry wood pellets weigh 630 g/l
wheat bran weighs 185 g/l

volume of bran added per 1l of dry wood pellets, value given is the percentage of total dry weight.

250  ml ---> 6.8%  bran
500  ml ---> 12%  bran
1000 ml ---> 22.7% bran
2000 ml ---> 37%  bran


Recipe for ~2 jars

1l dry wood pellets (expands to 3l when water is added)
~1l water (add 1l to expand pellets and a little more later to reach field capacity)
?  ml wheat bran
125 ml gypsum


Pour 1l of hot water over 1l of pellets. Mix pellets and let sit for 5 minutes to equalize moisture. Mix in wheat bran and gypsum. Add a small amount of water, mix and repeat until field capacity is reached. I am hydrating until the substrate sounds wet when I squeeze a hand full but no water drips out.





Pack jars loosely using just enough pressure to get rid of air pockets.

I'm using a cut down hollow metal broom handle to bore a hole down the center to fill with spawn.

Sterilize for 90 minutes at 20 psi. I am able to fit 5 of the 2l jar in a AA921 pressure cooker. Comparatively I can fit 4 spawn bags in the same PC. Using the 2l jars only gives me 66% of the capacity vs. using the bags.





These are hardwood jars inoculated with rye spawn. Just pour the spawn down the hole. One quart of spawn will do 10 jars. If I was to continue making jars I would switch to sawdust spawn.


Edited by GroboClone (10/27/11 12:26 PM)

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InvisibleEvilMushroom666
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14795317 - 07/19/11 09:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:popcorn:

Interested to see how this turns out :strokebeard:

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OfflineNSF
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: EvilMushroom666]
    #14796163 - 07/20/11 02:54 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is going to be a very interesting experiment.  Thanks for sharing yet more info with us.

Why do you say you'd prefer saw dust spawn over grain next time?  Grain 'should' pour nicely down that broom handle. 

Also, i haven't worked with fuel pellets, but i have to mix up my dry substrates first, otherwise i end up with unmixed blobs of rice bran pellets.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #14796571 - 07/20/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i haven't worked with fuel pellets, but i have to mix up my dry substrates first, otherwise i end up with unmixed blobs of rice bran pellets.




This common.  The gypsum will also ball up into blobs if the sawdust is wet before it's added.

I believe the main reason they use jars for kings is because the process can be automated with surplus canning line equipment, originally used for food.
RR


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OfflineFeelers
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF] * 1
    #14796572 - 07/20/11 07:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

American gypsum is incredibly patriotic it would seem! :grin:

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Offlinehoudinihar
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #14796733 - 07/20/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

i was reading the 2 papers and it seems like 45 days ia long time to colonize a small substrate area like the bottles have. are you seeing that to be true as well, is your colonization that slow, GroboClone? also one of the things i believe i remember on this  youtube vid is liquid inoculation techniques:

Youtube King Oysters Production


btw-i took some liquid mycelium from one of my king oyster grain jars, aka what agar spoke about, and will be doing some liquid jar inocs today even though my temps are way too warm right now in this part of the country. at least i can get some colonizing done while waiting for cooler temps.

thanks for sharing your grow ideas.

houdinihar

Edited by houdinihar (07/20/11 08:20 AM)

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Feelers]
    #14797536 - 07/20/11 12:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

NSF said:

Why do you say you'd prefer saw dust spawn over grain next time?  Grain 'should' pour nicely down that broom handle. 

Also, i haven't worked with fuel pellets, but i have to mix up my dry substrates first, otherwise i end up with unmixed blobs of rice bran pellets.




If the grain spawn is broken down perfectly it pours in fine. I found that even a little clump  was getting stuck in the hole.

Hmm, I didn't have a problem with ingredients clumping. The sawdust was relatively dry, I tried to use just enough water to expand it, mix in the rest of the ingredients, then add more water to bring to capacity. It was my first time working with powdered gypsum, I used granulated in the past. I just dusted the top, mixed and then dusted some more.

Now that I think about it mixing everything dry makes more sense.



Quote:

Feelers said:
American gypsum is incredibly patriotic it would seem! :grin:




Funny thing is it was made in Canada  :facepalm3:


houdinihar

I can't see them taking 45 days. This strain can rip through a grain jar in under 10. It is a pretty common thing for colonization times to increase as the nutritive value goes up, though.



The main reason I'm using bottle culture is to have a smaller unit to test with rather than making up 24 large blocks. I also want to see what all the hype is about, do they perform well or do people like them for the automation. I'm still undecided as to what my long term goal is for commercial production, maybe automated bottle culture is something to look into.

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OfflineNSF
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14798930 - 07/20/11 04:49 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think bottle fruiting results in more even and different looking fruits.  Different from other shrooms i mean.  Bottles/jars for top fruiting produce about 4-6 pretty even fruit, with nice fat and meaty stems and small (tiny) caps.  Then there are all the automation and handling benefits bottles give a commercial grower.

Here in Australia asian supermarkets sell bags of 3-4 almost identical fruit.  But they are grown in korea and sealed in a nitrogen gas flooded bag so they survive the journey.  Blergh!

I had some of mine last night, thickly sliced and cooked on the cool part of the bbq grill.  Then i just ran them through the garlic butter that ran off my steak onto my plate...delish!!


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #14801234 - 07/21/11 12:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

In Europe, it's common to grow king oysters in 35 pound blocks (enclosed in a plastic bag).  In fact, I've had good success growing 25 pound blocks, and then cutting slits in the plastic bag like you would blue oysters.  You'll get many flushes, unlike with bottles.  The only problem I'm having right now is that it's too hot for kings... has to be in the 40's or low 50's to really be able to grow them.  I'll have to wait a few months or buy a fridge.  Good luck.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: curry]
    #14801509 - 07/21/11 02:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

That could be strain specific curry because i had lots of success earlier in the year when temperatures were in the 20s (celsius).  Mine seem to be hating the current temps of 10-13.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #14801558 - 07/21/11 03:01 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:popcorn:


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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Dragonaut]
    #14821226 - 07/25/11 07:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

5 days worth of growth....


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14821617 - 07/25/11 10:39 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:juggle:

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: ModularMind]
    #14823378 - 07/25/11 05:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, you choose very interesting ways of doing things, Grobo.  Thanks for posting your experiments, and good luck with this one.  I'm looking forward to the results.  You'll have grown Kings on both straw & wood pellets using the same strain, right?  I'm interested in all the differences.


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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14838066 - 07/28/11 10:37 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yep, same strain on straw and sawdust. Hoping to see some improvements.

8 days....


Edited by GroboClone (07/28/11 10:47 AM)

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14856721 - 08/01/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The center spawn is working well.

12 days....


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14856742 - 08/01/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:congrats: Well done GroboClone!! can´t wait to see how it develops.

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InvisibleJavadog
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14856839 - 08/01/11 02:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Those do seem to be taking off.  Nice work.

Good luck,

JD


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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #14856943 - 08/01/11 03:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

NSF said:
...
i haven't worked with fuel pellets, but i have to mix up my dry substrates first, otherwise i end up with unmixed blobs of rice bran pellets.




Mixing everything together dry doesn't work with fuel pellets and high bran supplementation.  The bran sucks up too much of the water and doesn't allow the pellets to expand. I would hydrate the fuel pellets, combine the bran and gypsum in a separate container, mix them into the sawdust, then bring up to field capacity.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14857069 - 08/01/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Hopefully it will be cold enough up there in the Great White North by the time those colonize your substrate blocks.  I'm completely dead in the water on kings right now, I just hope my blocks will survive until the fall, or I can find a deep freeze for a reasonable price.  I have a digital thermostat that I can set a deep freeze to say 40F.  I would put my blocks in there at night, and take em out and put em in the light during the day.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: curry]
    #14857121 - 08/01/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ya, the temperature is creeping up now that I'm taking air directly from outside, the heat wave doesn't help either, been around 35°C outside. I'll have to install an AC to get through August.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14865455 - 08/03/11 01:41 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I hope at you all growth. You when be used as a substratum a dry forage for cattle? Write to me the personal message.

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: rider]
    #14869671 - 08/03/11 10:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

14 days and most of the 125 ml bran/2l (6.8%  bran) jars are at 100% colonization. Now to decide how long to allow for consolidation.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14869694 - 08/03/11 10:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Once you fruit, will you block out light on the sides?

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: ModularMind]
    #14933306 - 08/16/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Today I put the jars in the fruiting room. The jars range from 7-12 days since full colonization. I have installed an air conditioner and my room temperature is holding at 16°C. Half the jars have had the top layer of substrate scraped off as indicated in one of the studies. The sides of the jars will not be blocked out in any way.

I am still waiting for the 1L bran/2L (37% bran) jars to fully colonize, they were made later than the others.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14935491 - 08/17/11 02:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GroboClone said:
... Half the jars have had the top layer of substrate scraped off as indicated in one of the studies...



Is your humidity above 90%? I'm pretty sure you need the mycelium to regrow on the scraped surface before pinning. Usually the bottles are closed again after scraping or water is sprayed on the surface.

Carsten

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Mycelio]
    #14940130 - 08/17/11 11:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Humidity is around 85% now and I'm planning to bump it up a bit. Thanks for the tip, I'll start misting the bottles that I scraped.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14985804 - 08/27/11 09:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How's it going?

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Toni L]
    #14992921 - 08/28/11 06:26 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's going good. Pins started coming up after a week in the fruiting
room. It is very clear that scraping the surface of the jars is a
necessary step. The best jars so far are the ones with 250ml of bran.





The jars that haven't been scraped are having trouble with pins
coming up against the glass, or under the top layer of mycelium,
at various levels depending on the jar.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust *DELETED* [Re: GroboClone]
    #14993329 - 08/28/11 08:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by flameclown

Reason for deletion: [this post is damn old]


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: flameclown]
    #14993466 - 08/28/11 08:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Very cool, Grobo.  I wonder if scraping would work with horizontal straw logs on shelves?  You think that would work?  How would you do it?


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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #14993709 - 08/28/11 09:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think scraping is necessary for bottles, but not needed for straw.

With the bottles you get a layer of aerial mycelium right at the top
that is searching for substrate. When the lid is taken off and this
mycelium is exposed to fresh air with (relatively) lower humidity
this mycelial mat collapses and you have an overlay situation.
Removing this top layer and getting back to the substrate remedies
the situation.

We usually colonize straw using a through spawn method,
the mycelium starts at the center and works its way out. Mycelium
doesn't sit at the fruiting sights for long unlike bottles which are
inoculated and fruited form the same opening. The hollow stems of
the straw also help the mycelium from growing too dense.

All I find that is necessary to achieve a full pinset with King
Oysters is to make x cuts in the logs soon after inoculation at the
locations you want them to pin. Once they are in the fruiting room
and have begun to pin, cut the x's out into circles.

I'm about to start a new project growing King logs on shelves.
Instead of having long logs laying horizontal I'm going to make 2'
logs. After they are packed I'll aerate the plastic with a pin
roller (roller docker). Once colonized and ready for fruiting the
logs will get cut in half and the one foot sections will be packed
tightly together on shelves.

With this method I'm hoping to eliminate much of the work involved in
cutting holes for both aeration and fruiting while at the same time
producing symmetrical vertically growing mushrooms.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #14995487 - 08/29/11 08:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting news about the scraping, ill have to look into that.  Also, how do you plan on getting the myceliated sawdust out of the jars?  I really like the jar growing style, but emptying jars seems time consuming for a master artisan grower, such as yourself.  Any news on which % of bran had fastest colonization speed? or you just want to wait till the grow is all over to share results?

You rock :headbanger:
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Aleon]
    #14996186 - 08/29/11 11:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I recently put some P. columbinus to near identical substrates except one had rice bran, the other had wheat germ.

And the winner is...

Rice bran

Substantially more rapid growth! The shrooms have latched on to the filter, clearly wanting to be opened and fruited, long before i expected in.

Groboclone: why are you punching holes as soon as you pack the logs?  Oh...you pasteurise, not sterilise, i get it.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #14999512 - 08/29/11 10:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This is really great

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: scifipirate]
    #15001069 - 08/30/11 10:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

here's some stuff i pulled from the Mushroom Business site- an article by Oei:Mushroom Business


Quote:

Scratching

The next phase can be compared to ruffling casing soil in white cap mushroom cultivation. The mycelium at the top of the bottle is not all the same age; older spawn can cause abnormalities, so a machine 'scratches' away a small part of the upper substrate layer after incubation.

Research carried out in 2002 at the famous Pudong Mushroom Institute in Shanghai confirmed the importance of scratching. Although this treatment slightly reduces the number of fruit bodies (from on average 7.1 to 6.3), the scratched bottles have a better yield and quality.

Harvesting takes place three weeks later.



The cultivation stages
•
Day 1. Mix sawdust with 40 % (volume) rice bran, moisten, fill in bottles with lid, sterilise within 6 hours, allow to cool to maximum 30 degrees Celsius.

•
Day 2.  Inoculate with spawn in sterile area.

•
Day 3 – 40.  Incubate at a temperature of 18.5 – 20.5 degrees Celsius.

•
Day 41.  Scratch.

•
Day 42 – 52.  Primordia formation, 8 hours per day 250 lux, RH: 85-95 %.

•
Day 61 – 65. Harvest, grading, packing, cooling and distribution to auction or wholesaler.




also the Korean lady on youtube uses humans to individually "prune" the growing fruitbodies



houdinihar

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: houdinihar]
    #15002695 - 08/30/11 04:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Aleon

Lower supplementation rates give slightly faster colonization speeds.
As noted before the 12% bran bottles were the first to pin.

I'm not giving too much weight to any of this. The only numbers I'm
concerned with are total yields (probably from just one flush). The
most expensive part of the process is my time, so my indicator on how
well I'm doing is how many pounds produced per hour of work.

To get the sawdust out I'll just use a spoon and scrape it out.
Definitely not time efficient but it'll work fine for the trials.
Also, I'm not concerned with BE on this run. I'm looking to see what %
of supplementation does the best compared to the others.



NSF

Have you tried wheat bran? I've heard that rice bran is best, but they don't grow any rice around here.


houdinihar

Good article. I'll get around to pruning some of the jars. Only about
5-6 mushrooms per jar are developing, but there are lots of pins.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15003722 - 08/30/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Once colonized and ready for fruiting the logs will get cut in half and the one foot sections will be packed tightly together on shelves.


-GroboClone

I hope this works.  It's an interesting idea.  I am going to go the sterilized production blocks route for kings, and be limited by autoclave capacity, unfortunately.

Good luck,
Ed

So are you just gonna use like a hand saw or something like a stage magician and his beautiful apprentice?


--------------------

Edited by Not Quite Social (08/30/11 08:14 PM)

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15003782 - 08/30/11 08:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Grobo:  i don't know the difference between bran and germ, i only had wheat germ and it didn't perform as well as rice bran.  Just because they don't grow rice near you doesn't mean you can't get it.  I live in an urban environment and i buy my rice bran from a pet supply place, well stock feed place.  The bran is pelletised and is feed for horses.  Maybe check out somewhere lile that near you.

Also, depending on how hard your substrate goes, a quick drill with a large drill bit into the top might help you and your spoon to get the sub out.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #15003863 - 08/30/11 08:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah, this is apples to oranges...

The bran is the outer part of the grain (think "husk") compared to
the germ which is the more nutritious portion (oils, etc).

Germ sounds like it might make a better spawn additive where bran
would fit bulk substrates.

Take care,

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF] * 1
    #15003902 - 08/30/11 08:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wheat germ is the embryo of the seed, bran is the outer layer. The germ
is higher in fat and protein than the bran, but lower in fiber. Since
fiber is the main thing we're looking for it's not an ideal supplement.

I'll pick up some rice bran to compare with wheat, but I like my
ingredients to sourced as locally as possible.


Looks like you beat me to it JavaDog....




Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
...I am going to go the sterilized production blocks route for kings, and be limited by autoclave capacity, unfortunately....

So are you just gonna use like a hand saw or something like a stage magician and his beautiful apprentice?




Tell me about it. I've picked up a third pressure cooker and am
running two cycles a day and still can't make enough. Hopefully the
new technique will help bridge the gap.

To split the logs hopefully all I have to do is cut the plastic with a
utility knife and the straw will naturally come apart since I pack it
in layers when I make the logs. Of course that's assuming I'm using
straw and alfalfa. I guess I'll have to get more creative if I use soy
hulls, but I think my machete will handle it.


Edited by GroboClone (08/30/11 09:06 PM)

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15004174 - 08/30/11 09:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks java.

Now it seems i need to source some wheat bran from somewhere and run another comparison experiment.  Or just double check my wheat germ/bran...as you've got me thinking i might have called it the wrong thing, it seems pretty husk-esque.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust *DELETED* [Re: NSF]
    #15007489 - 08/31/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by wisp

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: wisp]
    #15009691 - 08/31/11 11:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you're interested in bottle culture try to track down some of the
commercial plastic bottles. They're around 1L in size and have a much
wider mouth. I seem to remember a vendor selling them but I can't
remember which one.




Same jars as before, 3 days of growth...

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15009854 - 09/01/11 12:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Sexy


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust *DELETED* [Re: Cryogenicz]
    #15010619 - 09/01/11 05:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by wisp

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: wisp]
    #15010666 - 09/01/11 06:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Beautiful fruits - congrats!

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15010702 - 09/01/11 06:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

GroboClone,

nice fruits coming off your grow. they look as good as any commercial grow-op. you've done well.

houdinihar

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: houdinihar]
    #15011478 - 09/01/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hey GroboClone,
Are your bottles standard Mason wide mouths?  The screw caps on your pictures look exactlty as Mason.  What kind of filter did you use?

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: ltetr085]
    #15012841 - 09/01/11 04:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well done Grobo!!  :congrats:

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Toni L]
    #15017681 - 09/02/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

tripsis, those are some interesting jars, 2L capacity with a 130mm
opening. Hopefully they will be able to handle a sterilization cycle.

ltetr085, the jars are GEM style. They have a 78 mm mouth. They are in
between standard (70 mm) and wide mouth (86 mm). I used wide mouth
filters and cut them down to size.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15023126 - 09/03/11 02:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The idea is to try different ratios of wheat bran to sawdust and see what gives the biggest yield with this strain.





What percent of bran worked best?


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15023879 - 09/03/11 05:21 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Still haven't harvested any mushroom to weigh. I'm letting them grow
as big as possible. I'll give you my observations so far.

The lower the supplementation level the faster the colonization speed.

The 37% bran jars made on August 3 are just now coming to 100%
colonization (1 month). It also didn't help that they got a very
low amount of spawn because the rye didn't want to break up and got
stuck in the holes.

Scraping off the top layer of substrate helped immensely with speed and
quality of pinning and stopped primordia from forming deep in the jars.

The 12% bran jars were the first to develop mushrooms.

The 22.7% bran jars, while slower, are producing beefier fruits.

The 6.8% bran jars are the slowest fruiters and have the smallest mushrooms.



Same jars again, another 3 days of growth...

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15024580 - 09/03/11 07:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

those are good data to have. please keep posting, i am currently trying to grow some king oyster.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: john-hai]
    #15025321 - 09/03/11 09:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, thanks for the status report, Grobo.  Looks like your results are lining up with the studies you cited.  P. Eryngii likes a lot of bran.  Personally, I'd rather manage a longer crop cycle if it means significantly higher quality fruit.

John Hai, good luck with your kings!  Please post your method & results.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15027382 - 09/04/11 12:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i don't have much data on my grow but will be happy to share.  this is my first king oyster grow, i did 3 block.

substrate straw 8cups
supplement coffee 1cup 12.5%
fruiting tempt.55-65f night 85-90f daytime
fruiting chamber outdoor under bamboo

1st block gave 1 mushroom then contaminate
2nd block gave 2 mushroom still waiting
3rd block just pinning


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: john-hai]
    #15027890 - 09/04/11 01:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So those are yours, eh?  Nice Kings!  Looks like you're a proud dad, too! She looks about the same age as my oldest girl, 7 y/o.  Congrats on your success.  More to come.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15028487 - 09/04/11 03:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i hope so she is the official "mushroom grower" even though i do all the work.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: john-hai]
    #15029670 - 09/04/11 07:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15030016 - 09/04/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

First set of numbers are in.


250mL/2L (12%) Bran, Scraped Substrate

Time:
45 days since inoculation
19 days since introduction to fruiting conditions

Yield, First Flush:
1st jar, 214g (4 mushrooms)
2nd jar, 220g (3 mushrooms)

Biological Efficiency:
60%
wet mushrooms / dry substrate
(214g+220g) / (630g+92.5g)


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15031294 - 09/05/11 07:12 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hi..Love this thread..Not enough bottle grows on this forum..

Just one question..What's the optimum time to harvest Kings ? The ones i've seen at the store have their caps more closed than yours. Just wondering what the ''industry standard'' is..

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GourmetShiitake]
    #15032300 - 09/05/11 11:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

WOW!  those are nice GroboClone.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: john-hai]
    #15032821 - 09/05/11 01:31 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The industry standard would be to grow them in a high CO2 environment
to stimulate the large stems and small caps. I don't do that.

The optimum time to harvest them for shelf life would be before the cap
margin flattens out. The largest mushroom in each cluster is over
mature. The smaller ones are still OK in my books because the caps are
still convex and the margins aren't wavey.

I'm growing the mushrooms to the point where I see spores starting to
develop. This takes my arbitrary decision of when to harvest out of
the question and will hopefully give a more consistent comparison
between jars.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15033887 - 09/05/11 05:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Looking good Grobo!

Lets see how far the BE will go up with higher rates of bran. I expect 90 and 100, perhaps more. You should be able to reach 120%.

Carsten

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #15034095 - 09/05/11 06:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

NSF said:
Or just double check my wheat germ/bran...as you've got me thinking i might have called it the wrong thing, it seems pretty husk-esque.




Yep, self quoting, it's a delight.  I did go back and check and it turns out i did a bran to bran comparison.  I don't know why I thought i had wheat germ, i didn't, i had wheat bran.  But still, the rice bran grows (now fruits) are well ahead of the wheat for P. columbinus.

Phase 2 experiment for grobo??? ;P

Also, grobo how do you know when they start sporulating?  Turns the lights off and shine a torch across the bottom of the cap?  I presume this means you are checking on them pretty regularly?


--------------------

Edited by NSF (09/05/11 06:03 PM)

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #15035983 - 09/06/11 12:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There is definitely a marked increase in size with each level of bran
supplementation. I can't wait to see what the 37% bran jars will do.

Lots more experimenting to come. I'm still trying to get my hands on
some plain rice bran. The stuff I've seen is mixed with all sorts of
vitamins and minerals and is none too cheap.

I'm not doing anything fancy to check for spores. I just turn the jars
over and look for spores on the gills. I'm not concerned with a few
spores getting released, I just don't want spore icicles hanging from
the gills.


6.8% and 22.7% bran jars,
all scraped and pruned,
guess which is which...



These should turn out quite large,
22.7% bran, un-scraped...



This jar is 22.7% bran,
un-scraped and un-pruned,
it got a little out of hand...



Finally we have some fatties growing
out of a un-scraped 12% bran jar... 

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15036324 - 09/06/11 03:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

They look delicious and your dedication to documenting and sharing the experiment is excellent. 

It'd be great to see the results plotted on a graph, so you can choose your sweet spot.  cost (supplement vs time vs effort (scraping) vs yield.  I'll plot it if you need a hand. 

Oh and use your fellow Canuck's hard work to track down some rice bran: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13314653


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #15037651 - 09/06/11 11:42 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

hey GroboClone i got some rice brand from a feed store here in california i  don't know if you have any by you. your grow is looking fantastic.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: john-hai]
    #15044405 - 09/07/11 06:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Beautiful work, Grobo!

I've been following your grow, and it's been immensely inspiring.  I'm in the process of getting a little operation off the ground, and I'm still researching the best way(s) to grown Kings.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: woodland_jewel]
    #15050580 - 09/08/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Pulled all the jars today except one. Here are the rest of the numbers

500mL/2L (22.7%) Bran, Scraped Substrate
Yield, First Flush:
190g (2 mushrooms) *very dry
240g (3 mushrooms)
240g (4 mushrooms)

500mL/2L (22.7%) Bran, un-Scraped Substrate
Yield, First Flush:
232g (6 mushrooms)

250mL/2L (12%) Bran, un-Scraped Substrate
Yield, First Flush:
235g (3 mushrooms)
63g (1 mushroom)

125mL/2L (6.8%) Bran, Scraped Substrate
Yield, First Flush:
130g (3 mushrooms)
104g (2 mushrooms)

125mL/2L (6.8%) Bran, un-Scraped Substrate
Yield, First Flush:
100g (2 mushrooms)
78g (3 mushrooms)
55g (1 mushroom)

* three of the 6.8% jars failed to produce any mushrooms out the top of the jars



To sum up, both 12% and 22.7% bran jars on average produced over twice
the yield of the 6.8% jars. the 22.7% had about a 10% edge on the 12%.
I think at the higher supplementation levels the jars shape may be limiting the yield.

I will not be continuing to fruit King Oysters using the jars. Instead
I have been making up 5lb. sawdust blocks. I have around 100 colonizing
right now. The first batch was inoculated a month ago and is ready to
be fruited. They are all around 25% bran.

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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15051757 - 09/09/11 04:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The info you've shared, your experiments and conclusions are helping steer my own work--as you know, I'm now going with the high bran, sawdust blocks, too.  I'm looking forward to seeing how your blocks do--I'm right behind you with mine.  Maybe by comparison we'll get an idea if straw in the mix is a benefit.  I'm hoping you get lots of giant mushrooms off those blocks--in which case, investing in an autoclave or RR-style low pressure rig might be to do, no?  --As usual, great work, and thanks for sharing it.

-Ed


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15051994 - 09/09/11 07:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I see a RR-style bulk sterilizer in my future as well.  Seems like you would need multiple PCs going to equal the production from one of those 55-gallon steamers. 

What are the neighbors gonna think about that, Ed?


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: woodland_jewel]
    #15220473 - 10/13/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Finally got around to fruiting the 37% bran jars. They went into the
fruiting room about a week ago.

To prep the jars the top layer of sawdust was removed, they got a
misting of water and the lid was put back on. They really responded to
this and pinned heavily.


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15221499 - 10/13/11 07:13 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So the more kings you grow Grobo, the more it seems like scraping is the way to go?


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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #15221603 - 10/13/11 07:39 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, it seems for all but straw columns the kings perform better scraped.

You have to watch out though. If you scrape the 5 lb blocks you are
exposing a lot of surface area for evaporation. I think the lesson to be
learned is that Kings perform better if you have a low ratio of surface
area to substrate volume (ie: big straw column with little holes, 1-2 L
container with a 80cm opening)

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OfflineNSF
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15223734 - 10/14/11 06:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

So what about collaring the the top of a block, rather than cutting the plastic off?


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OfflineCulland
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: NSF]
    #15225188 - 10/14/11 02:00 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

How much are you taking off with scraping? Are you cutting off say the top cm, less? Or are you just scraping it up to disturb it and not actually cutting it off?

Thanks, great thread.

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Culland]
    #15225279 - 10/14/11 02:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

NSF, I don't know if a collar would work on a large block. You might do
better wit a lattice or grid of some sort. Or just leave blocks for
Shiitake and grow Kings in something else.

Culland , because the bottles were so old I had to remove a lot of
material. The mycelium had grown up and was pressing against the lid. I
removed enough to get back down to the sawdust. If they aren't too old
you could just do a surface scrape.

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OfflineCulland
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15225672 - 10/14/11 03:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Great, thanks for the info. Was just working on a bottle grow for lions mane, think I will do the scrape for them as well and see the difference.

Cul

Edited by Culland (10/14/11 04:10 PM)

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Culland]
    #15257629 - 10/21/11 04:13 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The 37% bran jars definitely produced the fullest pinset.
I should probably prune more of the small mushrooms.


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15258505 - 10/21/11 07:21 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

A few huge fruits, lots of smaller pretty little ones; half-dozen in one hand, six in the other.  I think you nicely confirmed that study about bran supplementing.  Also, smaller fruits have market appeal, too.  I've seen them advertised as "baby French horn mushrooms" :rolleyes:


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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15285837 - 10/27/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Last update.

The five bottles with 37% bran yielded 2.5 lbs of mushrooms.
I think it is better to prune and get a few large fruits,
some of the jars were jam packed with stems.


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InvisibleEvilMushroom666
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15285844 - 10/27/11 12:24 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

:congrats: Very nice brother!

Thanks for sharing as always.

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Offlinewoodland_jewel
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: EvilMushroom666]
    #15285905 - 10/27/11 12:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Beautiful experiment!  Thanks, Grobo!!!


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InvisibleJavadog
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: woodland_jewel]
    #15286051 - 10/27/11 01:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It is useful that this species has tasty stems....those are huge!

Good work!

JD


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Offlineshowup
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15286239 - 10/27/11 01:47 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Very good and systematic work GroboClone. It seems to me that the BE does not increase significantly beyond 22% when you use higher and higher amount of bran. Do you feel if the orifice of the bottles would have been bigger in case of 37% bran batch the BE would have been much higher? And also if orifice of the bottle is the limiting factor do you feel the 2nd flush will be higher in case of 37% supplemented batch as compared to 22% one? Thank you.

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Offlinehoudinihar
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: showup]
    #15288253 - 10/27/11 08:36 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

excellent grow GroboClone.

thanks for sharing this info.

houdinihar

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: houdinihar]
    #15292693 - 10/28/11 08:12 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

showup-
Yes, I think the bottle openings are the limiting factor.

Two things to try:

Smaller containers (1L?) with same size opening, same yield?

Same size containers with larger opening, bigger yield?

I don't know how good bottles would work for a second flush, they would need to be re-hydrated.

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Invisiblecc2
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #15294114 - 10/29/11 05:24 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GroboClone said:
I don't know how good bottles would work for a second flush, they would need to be re-hydrated.




since you know your yield, would it be a bad idea to reintegrate 90% (or slightly less assuming a certain biomass has been convertend hence it is no longer present to be hydrated) of the yield weight instead of dunking in an unknown quantity of water?

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Invisiblesolarity
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: cc2]
    #15294331 - 10/29/11 08:09 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Knew I had read somewhere about optimium bottle sizes being 0.8 - 1.1L
http://mycopia.com/documents/consulting-and-equipment-bottles-vs-bags.pdf


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Offlinemushroomsatrise
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Re: Bottle Culture, King Oyster (P. eryngii) on Supplemented Sawdust [Re: GroboClone]
    #20344458 - 07/28/14 08:43 PM (9 years, 9 months ago)

growth of mushroom is also based on environment i think


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