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Invisiblecheesenoonions
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Registered: 04/02/01
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What's wrong with Antibiotics?
    #1478947 - 04/21/03 02:15 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I've read that antibiotics should not be used unless there is a serious problem with bacterial contamination. Once the contams have been weeded out, you should switch to media that does not have antibiotics in it. Why are antibiotics bad?


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #1479089 - 04/21/03 03:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

overuse of antibiotics pressures bacterial genes coding for resistance to the antibiotic to flourish. over time the antibiotic completely loeses its effectiveness.


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan


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Enema Bag Jones

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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: the spiral]
    #1479096 - 04/21/03 03:13 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I think its more like:

The bacteria that survive pass their genes (anti-biotic tolerant) along.

Its evolution on a small scale.


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Man thinks. God laughs. - Jewish Proverb


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Invisiblewoodrow
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: no-tone]
    #1481493 - 04/22/03 05:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Resistance is an important consideration and there are others. It would take an expensive coctail of several different antibiotics to deal with the many different types of bacteria that you might encounter and you would still have yeasts, molds, and viruses to deal with. Antibiotics that kill yeasts and molds also kill shrooms.


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Invisiblecheesenoonions
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: woodrow]
    #1482281 - 04/22/03 02:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you all for the replies. I understand, but stamets states in his book to use antibiotics only sparingly and only until the prob is taken care of. He is assuming a budget much higher than the antibiotics would cost. I am assuming this because of his section on making a grow room, and his suggestions on equipment. He seems to warn against antibiotics, but I don't remember him explaining why. Why would resistant bacteria be an issue? I don't understand how genes are ever pressured into "anything". The antibiotic has nothing to do with the baceria becoming resistant. The resistance comes in when there is a mutation that somehow allows the bacterium to live and destroys the method with which the antibiotic acted on the cell OR creates a protein or something that acts on the antibiotic and destroys it. Here's a specific example. Streptomycin binds to a protien on the ribosome of a bacterium. If there is a spontaneous mutation that alters that protein just enough so that streptomycin cannot bind, AND that protein is still functional, then the bacterium has aquired resistance. The antibiotic only selects for resistant bacteria on media, it doesn't create them.


Edited by cheesenoonions (04/22/03 02:21 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #1482364 - 04/22/03 02:33 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

stamets states in his book to use antibiotics only sparingly and only until the prob is taken care of




What Stamets is saying there is that antibiotics treat the symptoms of contamination, not the problem. If you have a contamination problem because of sloppy sterile technique or a dirty grow room, you should improve your technique or clean your grow room.

Trying to fix a contamination problem with antibiotics will select for antibiotic resistance in the contamination vector. When that happens, antibiotics will no longer work and you'll have an even bigger problem then when you started.

Use antibiotics sparingly and only when you're sure all other measures to block contamination are optimized so you don't end up with super-bacteria roaming your lab.

-Diploid


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Enema Bag Jones

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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #1482518 - 04/22/03 03:38 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Like is said. The bacteria that have the ability to survive the anti-biotic are the ones left to flourish.


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Man thinks. God laughs. - Jewish Proverb


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: no-tone]
    #1482623 - 04/22/03 04:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

like i said, the bacteria with the genes for resistance are the ones who don't die.


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan


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Enema Bag Jones

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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: the spiral]
    #1482696 - 04/22/03 04:26 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Its less of an adaptation.


--------------------
Man thinks. God laughs. - Jewish Proverb


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OfflineNoLogos
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: no-tone]
    #1483970 - 04/22/03 10:02 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know why Stamets doesn't talk more about antibiotics. There is no way I can do sterile conditions in my house, so antibiotics are necessary for me! Don't worry--any contam that shows up on my plates get put into the autoclave at work. Anyway, evolution doesn't work that fast, in my humble opinion.
I still get fungal contams, but not more than around 5% of my plates get stray fungus. I haven't seen bacterial colonies on my plates in months.


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Enema Bag Jones

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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: NoLogos]
    #1484042 - 04/22/03 10:20 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Your humble opinion is wrong. With a generation time of like 30 mins, evolution can (and does) happen very quickly.


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Invisiblecheesenoonions
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: no-tone]
    #1484168 - 04/22/03 10:48 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I understand what both of you are saying (no-tone & manback) and I agree. It's basic genetics. I just think the rate at which these things get mutations that don't kill them AND protects them from an antibiotic is being overblown in this thread. So I guess what everyoone is saying is that antibiotics don't hurt the mycelia.


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Enema Bag Jones

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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #1484189 - 04/22/03 10:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I thought Diploid's post is the definitive answer to the original question.


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Invisiblecheesenoonions
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: no-tone]
    #1484233 - 04/22/03 10:59 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I agree, thanks diploid.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: NoLogos]
    #1485177 - 04/23/03 04:26 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

There is no way I can do sterile conditions in my house,





I dont know why not...I'm lazy and I'm a pig...not to mention the lack of airflow and high humidity that been helping everything in the kitchen to contaminate....I use a few well learned techniques and reduce the contam problem to almost nil...if I ever have a contam problem, it's isolated and destroyed...I review my procedures and begin again, trying not to duplicate my mistakes....I never seen there was really much of a need for antibiotics if your procedures are good, its also good to practice with a few cultures that are 'waste' in order to learn steps at isolating a good strain. Anit boitics should always be a last resort.


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OfflineCultyVader
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #1485192 - 04/23/03 04:41 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Evolution does not happen in 30 minutes. And id be happy to be proven wrong. Resistant bacteria are not a problem as long as they are destroyed before they contaminate all of your stuff. The evolution that MIGHT be occuring here is where a natural disaster kills every strain except one of a species and that lives on. Like if on earth a meteor hit, or a gigantic earthquake etc. . The only reason Antibiotics are becoming less effective over time is because half of this dipshit population on earth are not taking ALL of their medication. If you dont take it all, the resistant bacteria is not destroyed and infects other people leaving that antibiotic now useless. TAKE ALL YOUR DAMN PILLS. And destroy any cultures of resistant bacteria you come across. Remember the resistant bacteria didnt evolve or anything, it was there the whole time in your agar. However, it doesnt have to fight with the rest of the crowd and could easily sabotage your entire culture set. So in the end i agree. Only as a last resort. And use responsibly, I dont want to have to deal with some super bug in my shit beacause of you.


Edited by CultyVader (04/23/03 04:44 AM)


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Invisiblecheesenoonions
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: CultyVader]
    #1485236 - 04/23/03 05:16 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The only reason Antibiotics are becoming less effective over time is because half of this dipshit population on earth are not taking ALL of their medication. If you dont take it all, the resistant bacteria is not destroyed and infects other people leaving that antibiotic now useless.



So you're saying that antibiotic resistant bacteria are killed by antibiotics if you take all the pills prescribed? Why were they resistant if the antibiotic killed them? Alot of people think that antibiotics MAKES bacteria resistant or something. They don't, they just provide a piece of the evolution puzzle. The other piece is mutation. And just because something mutates, that doesn't mean it will survive. Don't worry I don't use antibiotics, I just wanted to understand stamets.


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OfflineCultyVader
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: cheesenoonions]
    #1485243 - 04/23/03 05:31 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Yes im saying that the bacteria arent Antibiotic-PROOF they are resistant. I THINK that antibiotics weaken the resistant strains so taht your body can take care of them. If you dont keep them down long enough by taking all of your medication, they can recover and reinfect you. 100 colonies of resistant bacteria are harder to kill than 95 colonies of reg. bacteria and 5 of resistant. If everybody started taking Antibiotics everyday for the rest of time than evolution would occur in bacteria because only those resistant would ever survive. But non-resistant bacteria still has a lot of space on this earth. Evolution is very slooww there is nothing fast about it. Mutation is caused by stress on organisms so concievably you could cause a mutation in your lab by stressing the bacteria with Antibiotics. But the mutation will most likely not help them in anyway. Cancer is a mutation and it sure as hell aint benefiting us.


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OfflineCultyVader
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: CultyVader]
    #1485244 - 04/23/03 05:34 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Oh yeah and about using them. Its kindof like spoiling youself rotten. As soon as you stop using them then you will have gotten so lazy in your sterile tactics that itd be a bitch to find out what your doing wonrg because youvebeen doing it for soooo long.


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InvisibleSclerite
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Re: What's wrong with Antibiotics? [Re: NoLogos]
    #1488024 - 04/24/03 02:20 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Actaully, antibiotic resistance genes are commonly coded in bacteriophages - circular bits of DNA that are bart of the bacterial chromososm - bacterial conjugation (sex) occurs between two bacteria and you get crossover events that result very quickly in recombinations that lead to AB resitance within very few generations. AB resiatance is a virulence stategy. It has nothing to do with the ridiculous post about "taking the whole bottle' in this thread at all.


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