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Offline4896744
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14697386 - 06/30/11 02:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
He's a mixed bag for sure. Nationalizing the oil probably benefited the majority.




How?  Is benefiting the majority per se a positive?  If not, then how is this a positive action?  If not then what is your reply to the usual objections to utilitarianism?




From my understanding gas is very cheap in Venezuela. IMO, this is good for the poor people trying to feed their families.


Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

From what I've read he is attempting to champion the lower class. I like any world leader that is willing to speak out against U.S imperialism.





What is "U.S. imperialism"?  What examples of this can you cite?

Of the many people who've made that claim, I don't recall anyone being able to back it up.  The US has been amongst the least imperialistic of the major powers- perhaps the least so in history.  Both politically/diplomatically and in action the country seemed to consistantly oppose imperialism even to the extent of alienating its alies.  Your characterization seems unfair.




I see U.S corporations and the U.S government as a mutually beneficial entity. If your willing to entertain that idea, then look at United Fruit in the banana republics. This is just one example of U.S companies exploiting Latin America for cheap labor and resources. It's not imperialism in the traditional nationalistic sense, but an even more dangerous neocolonialism which has kept third world countries in poverty. The same thing goes on in Africa. Look what happens to leaders that try to nationalize oil...like Chavez or Mohammed Mossadegh. Look up the CIAs involvement in Gutamala and Chile's coups. If not imperialism, what would you consider it?

I understand realist theory as far as international relations are concerned. If you believe the world is in a state of anarchy as it is beneficial for exploitation to take place, then I would have to respectfully disagree with you - and we can end the conversation there.




So because the company was based in the United States, that makes the United States Government imperialistic?


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: 4896744]
    #14697411 - 06/30/11 03:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Where do you draw the line between government and the private sector?

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Offline4896744
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14697429 - 06/30/11 03:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Where do you draw the line between government and the private sector?




When the government doesn't fund or have a stake in the company.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14697457 - 06/30/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How about answering the question- your the one who said that UFC somehow made the US imperialistic. 

The line between government and private sector... the government is the body that runs the country, the private sectore is that which is not the government, generally the term conotates privately owned buisness.

Quote:

From my understanding gas is very cheap in Venezuela. IMO, this is good for the poor people trying to feed their families.




The same could questions could be asked about this.  Seems a pretty arbitrary quality to base an assesment of such a policy on- to say nothing of the merits of taking property from the purported owners.

Quote:

I see U.S corporations and the U.S government as a mutually beneficial entity. If your willing to entertain that idea, then look at United Fruit in the banana republics. This is just one example of U.S companies exploiting Latin America for cheap labor and resources. It's not imperialism in the traditional nationalistic sense, but an even more dangerous neocolonialism which has kept third world countries in poverty.




UFC hiring people and buying local products somehow keeps their countrys of operation poor?  You sure they didn't just pick poor countrys to build operations in?

Its hard to see how offering a job and buying products is repressive, but you've not elaborated on this surprising claim so I'm left wondering.

Again: how is the United States imperialistic because of UFC "exploiting Latin America for cheap labor and resources"?

Quote:

If you believe the world is in a state of anarchy as it is beneficial for exploitation to take place, then I would have to respectfully disagree with you - and we can end the conversation there.




I don't know what this refers to: "in a state of anarchy as it is beneficial for exploitation to take place".  I don't see how the later relates to the former, and the term exploitation seems both vague and potentially used for its negative connotations.  Its hard to see how any action except complete economic isolation of a country's economy could prevent exploitaint of their labor and resources, and it seems unlikely you could be claiming this is beneficial for the isolated country, yet it seems to be what your suggesting is an unquestionable truth

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: 4896744]
    #14697649 - 06/30/11 03:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Where do you draw the line between government and the private sector?




When the government doesn't fund or have a stake in the company.




But how about when policy makers receive contributions or were once an integral part of the company? Cheney and Halliburton for example. My point is the line is not black and white, and the two tend to feed off of each other.

John: I'm not ignoring you, just going out to play hockey and don't have time to reply atm.

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Offline4896744
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14698106 - 06/30/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Where do you draw the line between government and the private sector?




When the government doesn't fund or have a stake in the company.




But how about when policy makers receive contributions or were once an integral part of the company?






In the first case it is nothing more than corporations supporting candidates that they believe will benefit them. Everyone does this, even the average voter. It is just on a smaller scale. In the second case, could you show me some concrete examples? I often hear about the Cheney/Halliburton ordeal but have yet to see solid evidence that Cheney profited from this.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: johnm214]
    #14713100 - 07/03/11 10:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/09/22 07:27 PM)

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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: Lion]
    #14713230 - 07/03/11 10:37 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/09/22 07:27 PM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #14713244 - 07/03/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Are you yourself white?


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: 4896744]
    #14713470 - 07/03/11 11:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/09/22 07:28 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #14787868 - 07/18/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Quote:

What is "U.S. imperialism"?  What examples of this can you cite?

Of the many people who've made that claim, I don't recall anyone being able to back it up.  The US has been amongst the least imperialistic of the major powers- perhaps the least so in history.  Both politically/diplomatically and in action the country seemed to consistantly oppose imperialism even to the extent of alienating its alies.  Your characterization seems unfair.




Are you really this blind?





Blind to what?  It would be appreciated if we coudl dispense with the appeals to incredulity, personal remarks, and other nonsense.  As I've stated: my difficulty in understanding the basis for these claims is percisely the fact that the proponents never seem to be able to justify them- they seem to use imperialist as a general slur having something to do with a large capitalist economy, best I can figure.

The following is from circa 1930, Smedley D. Butler, then retired USMC Major General, 30+ years in the military, at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. It's the beginning of his essay entitled "War is a Racket."

Quote:

He then goes into great detail about the economic specifics. What he said then certainly also applies post-WWII (although with less direct military interventions as we were now powerful enough to usually contract that work out to allied states & foreign-based paramilitariy organizations.) However, SE Asia was a notable exception to this preciserly bc we found so little native support in that region, & thus we needed hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground, on the front lines, to even have a chance to prop up our favored government(s) there.




Ok, what does SE Asia have to do with anything?  You don't seem to say, unless your claiming the US intervention was imperialist.  What specifics and arguments do you have here?  In vietnam, like korea, the communists sealed off the lands they administered and then waged an aggressive war to take the rest of the land they didn't control- breaking agreements to hold free elections and unify the government under an independant state.  The US went in an enforced its treaties and agreements, at the request of the beligerants. How is this imperialist?

As for the rest of our refrences to that article, if there's some particular argument you feel is persuasive, then feel free to make it.  Vague assurances that someone is profiting off war and that there exists an incentive for buisness to sell products through political manipulation does not seem to have anything to do with the matter per se, and you neglect to provide any specific argument how this is in practice an imperialist force rendering my claims false (that the US is amongst the least imperialist of the world powers, certainly a prominent force against such).



Quote:




I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm




The actions in the Spanish American war and the conflicts occuring shortly thereafter did seem to be somewhat imperialist.  I don't know much about this time in the US's history, but I tend to agree.  The treatment of the Natives is another area I'm less knowledgable about but would likely be able to convinced was both unjustified and imperialist, though the complexity of the parties and events makes it kind of difficult to discuss.


I reject the notion that the US economy profiting is 'imperialist', however; nor that this is an undesirable outcome or one suggesting of impropriety.



I'm not sure how this man's disatisfaction with the economic profiteering of government contractors and buisnesses who benefit from government action is particularly relevant.  I remain of the opinion that the US is amongst the least imperialist of the world powers and that its been a driving force in opposing such.  From opposing further colonization in the western hemisphere, to advocating for fair terms placed upon germany after WWI and II, even against the wishes of the US's allies (that might well have prevented the second war if the US's suggestions had been heeded), promising and delivering independant self-governance to the territories it conquered in WWII, and opposing Soviet imperialism and at times aiding revolutionary groups in some manner, the US seems rather firmly positioned against imperialism. 

Contrast that with the behavior of the other world powers with a military of similar size or who recently conquered a great many lands and yet did not keep them (compare the Soviet Union vs the US in post war Europe and Asia, even the US's position in negotiations favoring self government before the war concluded).  The US is one of the only reasons there were any independant states in Asia after WWII, and pushed for the same in Eastern Europe.

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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Hugo Chavez: What do you think of him and his government and why? [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #14788326 - 07/18/11 06:35 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (01/09/22 07:28 PM)

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