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Invisiblecortex
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
    #14811651 - 07/23/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

This is just getting ridiculous.  Multiple people have responded to you attempting to explain the holes in your logic in a respectful and clear manner, yet you continue trolling with the same vague accusations and apparent ignorance of the underlying scientific and mathematical concepts.  You keep using terms like "ego", "proof", and "mainstream science", none of which are part of any fruitful scientific dialog.

I have no problem exploring alternative theories to explain physical phenomena, but if you expect to be taken seriously at all, the burden of "proof"--as you put it-- is on you, my friend, no one else.  Quantum Mechanics beautifully explains these phenomenon through the work of hundreds of brilliant scientists and thousands of peer reviewed papers.  It's incredibly accurate in describing nature.

The information you perpetually ask for in thread is out there in endless places if you look, do not expect us to do your research for you.  If you want people to consider your ideas, than show us how your model can make predictions that are more accurate than QM.  I would be very, very intrigued to see what you have and do not worry about confusing us with the mathematics, there are some pretty smart people here.


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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
    #14811839 - 07/23/11 01:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I had the opportunity to repeat this experiment in the lab using a light-sealed box, a helium neon laser tuned down in intensity so as ensure just one photon in the box at a time, single and double slits, and a photomultiplier tube that would sweep the area behind the slit.  It wasn't that difficult of an experiment to reproduce, and it's worth it to see for yourself the results. 



:nothingtoadd:

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
    #14811939 - 07/23/11 02:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Have you actually really studied the double slit experiment?

The interferance pattern could have other explanations

Such as;

The particle makes waves through the vaccum medium which itself travels through both slits, while the particle travels through only one, but who's path is altered by the way the "vaccum waves" popegate and interfere.

IMO the evidence fits this theory better.




How does that interpretation explain the observed results:  How does one electron create an interference pattern via this aether?

You say that the electron only goes through one slit and the 'aether waves' go through both.  Given this, there is nothing for the electron to interfere with, and no matter how turbulent the sea of aether is, it will only displace the electron from its expected trajectory, there would remain nothing for it to interfere with.

Further, if the aether were disturbed by one tiny particle to such a great extent to have these large influences on its trajectory (yielding pseud-interference patterns with macroscopic distances between adjacent fringes on the film), why haven't any of the aether experiments and other equipment detected it?  Interferometers designed for all manner of purposes, such as the amazingly sensitive gravity wave detectors, would surely have detected much, much, smaller discrepancies than these the minute they were turned on.


Quote:

it is blunder to assume the interferance pattern itself is evidence of particle-wave duality and superpositions without ever actually observing the particles in action.

Just acknowledge that is an assuption is all i ask as a scientist.




What do you define "observing the particles in action" to be?  I would have thought the exposed film which yields the interference pattern would be such an observation, but apparently you don't, so what are you talking about and why is this particular observation necessary?

What are you claiming should be recognized as an assumption, percisely?  To a very real extent, all our interpretations are assumptions no matter how directly observed.  They are valued because they work in practice, not because they accurately reflect the metaphysical 'reality' of what is occuring- which we can never know anyways.

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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: dzza]
    #14812141 - 07/23/11 05:08 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dzza said:
I had the opportunity to repeat this experiment in the lab using a light-sealed box, a helium neon laser tuned down in intensity so as ensure just one photon in the box at a time, single and double slits, and a photomultiplier tube that would sweep the area behind the slit.  It wasn't that difficult of an experiment to reproduce, and it's worth it to see for yourself the results. 



:nothingtoadd:




Is it 100% certain that there wasn't even one electron interacting with each photon in the box?


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #14813609 - 07/23/11 01:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Is it 100% certain that there wasn't even one electron interacting with each photon in the box?




I'd say it's nearly 100% certain that there was at least one electron interacting with each photon in the box.  What of it?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
    #14813634 - 07/23/11 01:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Do i need to, is this

It's alright for you to ask questions, then you refuse to answer mine when they corner you with logic? I see how it is.

That's great, what's your point?

That the only theory that currently explains the available observations and accurately predicts the results of proposed experiments is quantum mechanics.

Aether theory is falsified by 100 years of experiments, not the least of which (and simplest to set up and run yourself if you wish) is the Michelson-Morley experiment. You can falsify it yourself with consumer grade electronics these days.

Prove that the double slit experiments empirically prove light partice-wave duality and supoerpositions.

Proof doesn't exist in science (math excluded). There is only a giant mountain of consistent evidence and experimental results that strongly suggest particle-wave duality is on the right track while aethers have a mountain of falsifying evidence.


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14814028 - 07/23/11 03:15 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Is it 100% certain that there wasn't even one electron interacting with each photon in the box?




I'd say it's nearly 100% certain that there was at least one electron interacting with each photon in the box.  What of it?




I thought that would mean the electron is the particle and the photon is the wave, like when you throw a stone in a pond. I know that's wrong but I don't understand why.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Diploid]
    #14814136 - 07/23/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Okay if we want to talk more about aether ll give another basic description of why i think "aether" better fits the evidence from the double slit experiment.:

Replace the word "aether" with "space/time".

They are both talking about the same thing.

Mass dispaces space/time.

Einstein referred to this as "spatial displacement"

Photons make waves in the fabric of space/time

Here is the best basic visual reprisentation i could find;




Sether theories say that a vaccum is more than nothingness or a lack of any mass,  it is a type of mass in itself, einstein even said this. 

Somewhat like an elastic superfluid.

The electrons are always observed going through only one slit or the other when actually observed.

This observed evidence points to the ideas i have been futting foreward.

That the wave and the particle are serparate.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
    #14814155 - 07/23/11 03:59 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

A note about math:

Math can accurately predict outcomes, but it does not need to explain what is actually going on.

A number of different processses can take place that might fit with the same mathematical outcomes,

I believe that understanding what i actually happenng can lead to more accurate and useful math.

As i understand it as well, some "accepted" math doesn't even fit with the extereme upper or lower scenarios.

Correlation is not causation.


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Invisiblecortex
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
    #14814427 - 07/23/11 05:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Despite the fact that I generally hate when people do this I am going to quote myself.  It's pretty much what you have been doing as you have repeated yourself time and time again.

Quote:

cortex said:
hmmm...

I would say if you find this stuff interesting, you might consider exploring some avenues that aren't guided by hand-holding analogy and metaphor.  The biggest problem with a lot of the misconceptions and mystic philosophizing of quantum mechanics arises from the widespread use of analogies that really are wholly insufficient in describing nature.

I understand most peoples trepidation in exploring the mathematical formulation of physics, but the truth is that the best language we have to describe the phenomena you are discussing is mathematics.  The English language, even when spoken by a gifted orator such as Morgan Freeman cannot do justice to the truth. The real beauty is in the mathematics, and you would be surprised at how lucid these ideas become when they are expressed in that language.

I occasionally watch popular science presentations of physics as well, but the analogies provide only a small glimmer of the truth.  There are many introductions to modern physics (special relativity and quantum mechanics) out there that express the concepts using mathematical derivations without the need for a doctorate in math.  You can learn a lot with just some basic calculus and algebra.

Kudos to you for exploring the beauty that is physics, I would just recommend you--or anyone--at least attempt to explore it through mathematics and I think you will realize that it is even more amazing and beautiful when you do away with the inadequate analogies.

:cheers:




I am convinced that you do not have any mathematical formulae or data to back up any of your claims.  Furthermore, I submit the conjecture that you are incapable of not only formulating a mathematical model, but understanding the ones that you are refuting.

You are using analogies from General Relativity to compare analogies from Quantum Mechanics.  You are abstracting ideas further and far, far more literally than they were ever meant to be taken.

It's as if you are taking drawing of horse from a 6-year-old, and adding some features from a Neanderthal cave painting, and putting forth a "theory" that all horses, must obviously look like this:



Say what you want, but I (and a thousand years of science) believe that mathematics is REQUIRED in ACCURATELY describing nature, rather than just "picturing" it.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
    #14814570 - 07/23/11 05:48 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

What is the math that proves particle-wave duality and superpositions?

Heres some math:

Number of particles fired at a time = 1 (A)

Number of slits the particle passes through to the best of our observation = 1 (B)

A - B = 0

Quote:

cortex said: Say what you want, but I (and a thousand years of science) believe that mathematics is REQUIRED in ACCURATELY describing nature, rather than just "picturing" it.




I'm not trying to accurately predict outcomes, there are already equasions for that that don't conflict with my theories.

I am trying to model a process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_modelling

Quote:

Scientific modelling is the process of generating abstract, conceptual, graphical and/or mathematical models. Science offers a growing collection of methods, techniques and theory about all kinds of specialized scientific modelling. A scientific model can provide a way to read elements easily which have been broken down to a simpler form.




Quote:

A scientific model seeks to represent empirical objects, phenomena, and physical processes in a logical and objective way. All models are in simulacra, that is, simplified reflections of reality, but, despite their inherent falsity, they are nevertheless extremely useful.[2] Building and disputing models is fundamental to the scientific enterprise. Complete and true representation may be impossible (see non-representational theory), but scientific debate often concerns which is the better model for a given task, e.g., which is the more accurate climate model for seasonal forecasting.




Quote:

A model is evaluated first and foremost by its consistency to empirical data; any model inconsistent with reproducible observations must be modified or rejected.




This is why i reject particle-wave duality and superpositions, their models are not consistant with the empirical data,


Quote:

However, a fit to empirical data alone is not sufficient for a model to be accepted as valid.




This also applies to mathematical models. 

Just because the math fits, doesn't mean it is necessarly valid in describing the process of what is actually happening,

Understanding the process better i believe is useful in developing better, more accurate mathematic models.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
    #14814616 - 07/23/11 06:02 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You've criticized others for dismissing yoru claims, yet you have no responded to the clear and direct questions I've posed to you.  If you have any well-grounded belief in this explanation it would be trivial to explain how this could produce interference with a single electron and two slits.

Further, the interferometry data from accelerating interferometers should certainly show the results you claim, given the macrscopic dimensions of the observed deflection of the particle due to the aether.  In the double slit experiment you can easily create patterns where the distances between fringes is easily visible- how could this be a result of aether effects when no such effects have been observed in the historical experiments or the extraordinarily sensitive interferometers we now have?  Surely any acceleration/velocity of the instrument should reveal the presence of the aether if its effects are so prominent.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
    #14814706 - 07/23/11 06:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
What is the math that proves particle-wave duality and superpositions?




Here is a start, great stuff about superpositions
http://www.drchinese.com/David/Bell_Theorem_Easy_Math.htm

Let us know what parts are confusing to you.



Beyond simplistic things like that, some linear algebra and calculus can clue you in to the basics of showing how superpositions and particle-wave duality are described.  The math describes our observations.  You keep saying 'prove', that is a loaded term that is not appropriate for these ideas.

Edited by DieCommie (07/23/11 06:41 PM)

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
    #14817211 - 07/24/11 10:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
This is why i reject particle-wave duality and superpositions, their models are not consistant with the empirical data,




Actually, quantum mechanics is the only thing that does fit, and it fits to within measurement error for every single test we've ever devised and carried out.  Some of these measurements have been taken to over a dozen decimal places and agree with the predictions made by QM.

Quote:

Understanding the process better i believe is useful in developing better, more accurate mathematic models.




You've shown that you don't understand the process at all.

I really feel like you're just fucking with us.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14817275 - 07/24/11 11:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I doubt it.

Besides aether, he counts jews/illuminanti, chemtrails, 9/11 nonsense, and water fluoridation amongst those promising topics of research unjustly suppressed by the 'man'.


If you can believe in chemtrails, I'm sure you're inventive enough to figure out how aether is being hidden from us by the Jewish NWO conspiracy.

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Invisiblecortex
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: johnm214]
    #14818486 - 07/24/11 03:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Really.... either he is fucking with us or he is trolling the s&t board with off topic garbage.  Either way this thread should have been closed about 10 posts ago.  Of course such an action will undoubtedly be attributed to "the man" and an attempt to silence views that go against "mainstream sciences' dogma", but really, enough is enough.  Some people refuse to see the forest for the trees...


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: johnm214]
    #14819201 - 07/24/11 07:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
If you can believe in chemtrails.




You mean weather modification and cloud seeding?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_control


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Edited by Shins (07/24/11 07:10 PM)

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: DieCommie]
    #14819245 - 07/24/11 07:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
The math describes our observations.




I thought the math describes our lack of observations...?


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: johnm214]
    #14819297 - 07/24/11 07:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
You've criticized others for dismissing yoru claims, yet you have no responded to the clear and direct questions I've posed to you.  If you have any well-grounded belief in this explanation it would be trivial to explain how this could produce interference with a single electron and two slits.




I have described it already...

Quote:

Further, the interferometry data from accelerating interferometers should certainly show the results you claim, given the macrscopic dimensions of the observed deflection of the particle due to the aether.  In the double slit experiment you can easily create patterns where the distances between fringes is easily visible- how could this be a result of aether effects when no such effects have been observed in the historical experiments or the extraordinarily sensitive interferometers we now have?  Surely any acceleration/velocity of the instrument should reveal the presence of the aether if its effects are so prominent.





Quote:

how could this be a result of aether effects when no such effects have been observed




How could this be a result of superposition when no such effects have been observed?

The interferometry data does not rule out the possibility of an "aether" of some kind.

Check this out;

http://www.gauge-institute.org/Relativity/Michelson.pdf

Quote:

Abstract The Null result of the Michelson-Morley experiment, that ruled out the existence of an immobile Aether, is unexpected only in terms of Galilean Physics.
In Special Relativity, that Null result is fully expected, and does not rule out the existence of any Aether.
Since textbooks present the Michelson Morley experiment only in terms of Galilean Physics, its meaning is distorted, and misleading.
In particular, the Michelson-Morley Experiment cannot, and does not rule out an immobile Aether, or any Aether.
Furthermore, the Michelson Morley experiment is not an anomaly explained away by Lorentz contraction, but the most solid confirmation for Relativistic Kinematics.
Precision tests of the experiment validate further the formulas of velocity transformations in Special Relativity, and confirm Special Relativity.




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