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TheFakeSunRa
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Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show
#14780675 - 07/17/11 08:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Has anyone else seen this? They're showing a scientist repeating this famous experiment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment
If I understand it correctly, this experiment is famous for demonstrating that photons of light simultaneously act like particles and waves. That much I can dig. Then they go on to claim that the experiment proves that photons can be two places at once. OK that seems like shakier ground but in his book Physics of the Impossible Michio Kaku theorizes that in the whole universe and throughout all time there's only one electron in all those different places and all those different times all at once. Kaku isn't saying he's totally proven it though, just that there's evidence to support the case. I've read about Schrödinger's cat and similar ideas but I'm not sure anyone can say it's proven. But anyway, on the show, they take it one step further, and claim that this scientist has an extremely high-tech camera that could film the photon acting as a wave and particle and being in tow places at once at the same time but when he turns the camera on the photons change their behavior and act as a particle only. The evidence supposedly being that the light on the wall (after going through the slits) becomes just two slits as opposed to the several slits that show on the wall when his camera is off. I know that quantum theorists believe that observation affects reality, but really?
So anyway, when I'm watching the show I think, shit man I should rewind this and write down the scientist's name. But then I thought, fuck it, I can just Google some key words and get it later. But Google hasn't led me there. Does anybody know what I'm talking about, know the name of the scientist, or have any other comments about this subject?
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5HTSynaptrip
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#14780719 - 07/17/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thomas Young
Info about it can be read here in a broad scope. Wave-Particle Duality
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audiophoenix
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#14780721 - 07/17/11 08:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am familiar with this experiment and like you I was skeptical.
Here is a video that really helps make it clear what is happening.
Now I have heard that the camera they are using is a Gama Ray device of some sort which I was told by a physics professor will interfere with the experiment and alter the behavior of the electrons.
I don't know if that is a fact I am just sharing what I was told. But at any rate it is strange and I love it.
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
#14780774 - 07/17/11 08:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
5HTSynaptrip said: Thomas Young
Info about it can be read here in a broad scope. Wave-Particle Duality
This just gets curiouser and curiouser! Talk about a Schrödinger's cat!
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: audiophoenix]
#14780808 - 07/17/11 08:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
audiophoenix said: I am familiar with this experiment and like you I was skeptical.
Here is a video that really helps make it clear what is happening.
Now I have heard that the camera they are using is a Gama Ray device of some sort which I was told by a physics professor will interfere with the experiment and alter the behavior of the electrons.
I don't know if that is a fact I am just sharing what I was told. But at any rate it is strange and I love it.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Thanks, that's a great video. One thing I think might be misleading about it though is that maybe that machine doesn't really just shoot out single electrons but actually single electrons working in tandem with photons. About your professor, just plain horse sense kind of tells you he's right. Then again, I might be wrong about the photons and your professor.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#14784812 - 07/18/11 02:45 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Last night I watched another Wormhole episode and they mentioned one theory that suggested that because we have evolved under the shield of the magnetic field our brains have developed a way of controlling electrons that we don't yet understand.
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cortex
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#14794976 - 07/19/11 08:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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hmmm...
I would say if you find this stuff interesting, you might consider exploring some avenues that aren't guided by hand-holding analogy and metaphor. The biggest problem with a lot of the misconceptions and mystic philosophizing of quantum mechanics arises from the widespread use of analogies that really are wholly insufficient in describing nature.
I understand most peoples trepidation in exploring the mathematical formulation of physics, but the truth is that the best language we have to describe the phenomena you are discussing is mathematics. The English language, even when spoken by a gifted orator such as Morgan Freeman cannot do justice to the truth. The real beauty is in the mathematics, and you would be surprised at how lucid these ideas become when they are expressed in that language.
I occasionally watch popular science presentations of physics as well, but the analogies provide only a small glimmer of the truth. There are many introductions to modern physics (special relativity and quantum mechanics) out there that express the concepts using mathematical derivations without the need for a doctorate in math. You can learn a lot with just some basic calculus and algebra.
Kudos to you for exploring the beauty that is physics, I would just recommend you--or anyone--at least attempt to explore it through mathematics and I think you will realize that it is even more amazing and beautiful when you do away with the inadequate analogies.
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ChuangTzu
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
#14795610 - 07/19/11 11:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Unfortunately/fortunately, in this case, all the mathematics in the world isn't going to make the interpretation of said math any less bewildering...
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
#14796452 - 07/20/11 06:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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1) You're a good writer. 2) I do want to work on my math. I started practicing math again a few years ago and then gave it up after a couple of years. I don't know how far I am from it helping me understand quantum physics but at the least, it makes your brain feel good to exercise it.
-------------------- [quote]Asante said: You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar. You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason. I disendorse you.[/quote]
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5HTSynaptrip
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#14796981 - 07/20/11 09:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've only taken a full year of physics, so that means I've only done simple things like vectors, forces, electric field, etc. I can say that being a chem/neuroscience major left a lot of holes in my understanding of things, especially units like the Joule and volt, and while physics wasn't required I took it anyways and it turned out to be one of my favorite classes ever. I lack the mathematical expertise required to go into complex physics, but even physics 1 & 2 really opened my eyes to a lot. When you can look at something as simple as a problem dealing with a hypothetical car accident and find some unknown variable from the ridiculous formulas used in physics, which I find the derivations incredibly interesting, it's pretty cool. It was one of those classes that you could actually apply to real scenarios in life.
There's a quite a bit you can do in physics without knowing calculus as well, but a good understanding of trigonometry is pretty much paramount.
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cortex
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#14797049 - 07/20/11 10:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Chuang : I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. In my (thus far limited) experience the mathematics makes these concepts much more concrete and does away with the bewilderment. The "duality" of quantum mechanical objects arises only from our attempts to describe them with words and intuition about how we naturally perceive nature. There is no "duality" of physics, just of the language.
Nature does not care what we choose to call these objects, they just are what they are, which is neither "particle" or "wave". When described according to the mathematics of wave mechanics these objects no longer possess the bewildering ambiguity that troubles so many people. The confusion, it seems to me, arises only from our language.
SunRa: thanks for the kind words, I take a lot of pride in my writing. Despite my apparent clarity on the subject, I am really not much further along than yourself. Shows like "Through the Wormhole" are what inspired me to explore physics in more detail in the first place, and I too still struggle with the mathematics on a regular basis. Good luck!
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Diploid
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
#14797314 - 07/20/11 11:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Violations of Bell's Inequality are COMPLETELY bewildering and no amount of understanding the math takes anything away from that.
It makes absolutely no sense at all (to me anyway), and yet there it is, irrefutable.
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ChuangTzu
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
#14797456 - 07/20/11 11:56 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
cortex said: Chuang : I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. In my (thus far limited) experience the mathematics makes these concepts much more concrete and does away with the bewilderment. The "duality" of quantum mechanical objects arises only from our attempts to describe them with words and intuition about how we naturally perceive nature. There is no "duality" of physics, just of the language.
While the mathematical object that we use to describe an electron traveling through a double-slit experiment may be the same in all cases (not a duality), there is absolutely nothing in the math that tells us whether we will see a one slit pattern or a two slit pattern for any given set up. It is incumbent on us to correctly determine what constitutes a measurement at one or both of the slits which determines whether or not to apply an operator which will determine whether or not the observed pattern will be correctly predicted.
The idea of a "measurement" or an "observation" isn't even in the math. There are wave functions and there are operators that act on them. We just know that whenever we observe something, we apply the appropriate operator to our model wave function since when we observe something in real life, the "real" wave function changes accordingly.
The problem is, even though we use quantum mechanics every day, and it is an extremely powerful predictive tool, we still have no fucking idea what actually constitutes an observation. It's completely bewildering.
The Schrödinger's Cat thought experiment was devised almost 80 years ago and we have not much better a grasp on measurement now than we did then.
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cortex
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: ChuangTzu]
#14797593 - 07/20/11 12:34 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Intriguing stuff man. I was referring to the specific case of Complementarity and the dual nature of the subatomic world. It just seems like if we didn't use analogies like planetary model of atoms and nomenclature such as "particle" and "wave" we could avoid some of the confusion that often arises.
I certainly cannot deny that QM is full of mysterious and bewildering concepts, I was just trying to say that mathematics is an infinitely better language to describe the physics. Maybe I took my point a little too far and generalized though. Like I said I'm still a beginner in all of this, I'm just now working my through one dimensional Schrödinger equations and the "particle in a box".
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TheFakeSunRa
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: cortex]
#14802730 - 07/21/11 11:24 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Anyway, if anyone still cares, the name of the quantum physicist used on the show I saw is Anton Zeilinger.
Quote:
Anton Zeilinger Biosketch In the 1970s, Anton Zeilinger started his work on the foundations of quantum mechanics with neutron interferometry (initially together with H. Rauch). These experiments included confirmation of the sign change of a spinor phase upon rotation, precision tests of the linearity of the Schrödinger equation, and many other fundamental tests. Going beyond single-particle phenomena, Zeilinger in the mid-1980s became interested in quantum entanglement, initially with photons, now also with atoms. His most significant contribution are what is today called “GHZ states”. These were the first multi-particle states discovered (with Greenberger and Horne) in 1986 and experimentally realized by Zeilinger and his group in 1998. Such multi-particle entanglement states have become essential in fundamental tests of quantum mechanics and in quantum information science, most notably in quantum computation. Since then, Zeilinger has performed many experiments with entangled photons, including quantum teleportation, quantum cryptography, all-optical one-way quantum computation and a number of quantum gates. In single-particle interference, he has performed a number of experiments in atom interferometry and pioneered quantum interference of large molecules, like C60 and C70. Later experiments included very detailed studies of quantum decoherence by scattering and by radiation coupling to the environment. The technological progress in all these fields is making new fundamental tests possible. Most recently, Zeilinger became interested in tests of Leggett-type nonlocal theories, in experiments on Kochen-Specker predictions and in fundamental phenomena in quantum entanglement of ultracold atoms. The most important stages in the career of Anton Zeilinger include the Technical University of Vienna, M.I.T., the Technical University of Munich, the University of Innsbruck, the Collége de France, the University of Vienna and the Austrian Academy of Sciences.
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Shins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
#14805447 - 07/21/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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In my opinion, the conclusions of the double slit experiment are at best an assumption and at worst utterly false, and has spawned a false practice people call "quantam mechanics"
The conclusions that
1. light is both a particle and a wave
and
2. superpositions in general
are a blunder of "science"
Superpositions cannot be poperly tested, thus superpositions and furhermore quantam mechanics should not be considered science.
The young experiment actually supports an "Aether" or vaccum-medium based theory in my opinion.
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DieCommie

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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
#14805461 - 07/21/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Your opinion is ill informed and contrary to evidence.
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Shins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: DieCommie]
#14805524 - 07/21/11 09:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have studied the double slit experiment in detail but perhaps i have not yet seen some evidence...
Care to indulge?
My undertanding is that when you attempt to observe which slit an electron passes through, it breaks the interference pattern.
Thus you cannot actually observe the assumed "evidence."
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DieCommie

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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: Shins]
#14805578 - 07/21/11 09:21 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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The interference pattern is the observation. The evidence is simple, and clear as day.
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Shins
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Re: Double-slit light experiment on 'Wormhole' show [Re: DieCommie]
#14805610 - 07/21/11 09:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Have you actually really studied the double slit experiment?
The interferance pattern could have other explanations
Such as;
The particle makes waves through the vaccum medium which itself travels through both slits, while the particle travels through only one, but who's path is altered by the way the "vaccum waves" popegate and interfere.
IMO the evidence fits this theory better.
it is blunder to assume the interferance pattern itself is evidence of particle-wave duality and superpositions without ever actually observing the particles in action.
Just acknowledge that is an assuption is all i ask as a scientist.
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