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Invisibler72rock
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The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism
    #14775363 - 07/15/11 10:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Something I think about a lot is the Mind-Body problem. It's hard to say for sure one way or another, but I personally tend to lean towards a Dualist approach of them being separate.

As I've researched it though (Just on the internet), I've always been curious on the Buddhist take of the Mind-Body problem. Whether it was a Monist or Dualistic take.

Reading about it, it gets into all of these Buddhist terms that I don't quite understand such as Nama and Rupa, and form and name. To me, when I read these, I feel like it's not addressing the Mind-Body issue, or it's just too confusing for me to understand.

I guess I'm asking someone who's more inclined with Buddhist knowledge to fill me in on this. How does Buddhism address the Mind-Body problem?

Also, if anyone just has general input on the Mind-Body Issue, they're more than welcomed to contribute their interpretation. :sun:


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Offlinejoust williams
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14775390 - 07/15/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism
this is just one site and perhaps just one view of buddhism, but it seems to say that buddhism denies the idea of the soul.

Quote:

It is better to take a man's physical body as self than the mind, thought, or consciousness because the physical body is more solid and changes less than the latter.




I took a Hindu philosophy course a couple years back and found it interesting that the Hindus do not associate the the mind with the soul, or "atman". I forget the specifics of it, but essentially the "atman" is pure consciousness and identifying with the mind ties your soul to your body. I thought Hindu philosophy was pretty cool minus all the crazy gods.

Also, as for my own views on the mind-body problem, I tend to take the stance of epiphenomenal dualism. That's the idea that mental states (consciousness) are merely the by-products of physical states (firing of neurons in the brain and such). In other words, physical states affect mental states, but mental states do not/can not affect physical states.

Substance dualism, in which mental and physical states affect one another, doesn't make sense because of the physical law of conservation of energy. If the mind/soul is causing changes in physical states then there is energy transferring from the non-physical realm to the physical, adding new energy to a closed system. Of course physics may just be wrong.

Sorry if this was more input than you were looking for lol. Just finished a summer session on all this stuff, so I got it on the mind.

Edited by joust williams (07/15/11 10:58 PM)

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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14775444 - 07/15/11 10:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

in hinayana and sutra mahayana buddhism, there's a definite separation of mind and body. the subtle mind is said to transmigrate from life to life while the body obviously succumbs to death and decay. shantideva (a famous mahayana buddhist saint) said in his bodhicaryavatara text:

Quote:

58. Remembering over and over again that after a long time the best of moments of leisure has been attained; I will keep this mind unshakable, like Sumeru.

59. One does not object when the body is dragged here and there by vultures coveting its flesh. Then why do so now?

60. Mind, why do you protect this body, appropriating it as your own? It is really separate from you, what good is it to you?

61. Oh fool, if you do not consider as your own a pure wooden statue, why are you guarding this foul machine composed of impurities?

62. First, with your own intellect, peel off this sheath of skin, and with the knife of wisdom loosen the flesh from the skeleton.

63. Breaking the bones, look inside at the marrow and examine for yourself, "where is the essence here?"

64. If searching carefully in this way, you do not see an essence here, then say why you are still protecting the body today.

65. If you would not eat it, as impure as it is, and if you would not drink the blood not suck out the entrails, then what will you do with the body?

66. However, it is proper to guard it for the sake of feeding the vultures and the jackets. This wretched body of humans is an instrument for action.

67. Even though you protect it so, merciless death will snatch the body away and give it to the vultures. What will you do then?

68. You do not give clothing and such to a servant if you think he will not stay. The body will eat and pass away. Then why do you waste yourself?

69. Therefore, mind, upon giving the body its wages, now serve your own needs, because not everything earned by a laborer should be given to him.

70. Consider the body as a ship because it is the basis of coming and going. Set the body in motion at your will in order to accomplish the welfare of sentient beings.




so in sutra mahayana, the body is seen as a mere instrument for the mind to use to accomplish its acts, like a boat. in tantric buddhism (vajrayana) though, there's a stronger relationship between body and mind, and body is not just a vehicle of navigation but is also an instrument of liberation. in the vajrayana it's often said that body speech and mind are inseperable, so it transcends the dualism of sutra mahayana. this inseperability is the basis for physical yogas that are done to improve mental states, even in the basic meditation posture that promotes mindfulness.

i like to take a somewhat middle approach in that i think mind and body are neither totally separate nor totally inseperable, and instead they have a very interdependent relationship. this explains how physical yogas impact the mind and other obvious things like drugs, diet etc - but also allows room for understanding transmigration of the subtle mind. my understanding is that the very subtle mind goes life to life and incarnates, and during this incarnation process a new gross mind is formed with each new body. this gross mind is the day-to-day mind we're used to, and is very much dependent on the body for its functioning, including brain function. the subtle mind, which is the basis for this gross mind, is not dependent on the body but is attached to it, and when this attachment is severed at death it transmigrates. the subtle mind is experienced in deep meditation, during the sleep process, and at the time of death.

so as for the gross conceptual mind, i think this is very much inseperable with the body much like how scientific materialists think, but unlike materialists this mind's cognition is supported by a subtler mind which is entirely non-physical and survives physical death.

oh and in the vajrayana it gets more complicated as they see mind as the play of nadi, prana, and bindu - which are like channels, energy, and drops of the subtle energy system. mind in this system is seen as the movement of wind in the channels. as the winds gather and stabilize then subtler levels of mind are experienced. in this model then the mind is sort of an emergent property of pseudo-physical processes, or something. i'm not too educated on this aspect of the vajrayana though.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: joust williams]
    #14776145 - 07/16/11 03:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No! Don't feel that way at all. :lol:

If you have more to say, feel free to share it. :laugh:

I tend to subscribe more to the stance that you described in Hindu Philosophy. I believe the mind and body are separate.

The way I see it, the body is a giant organ and part of this organ is the brain. (Basically a Biocomputer) The thoughts that come about within the Brain are physically bound to the Brain as they are chemical signals. Therefore, our thoughts are physical. However, on top of this, there is an awareness that's perceiving and manipulating this Biocomputer. The awareness then accesses data within this Biocomputer. It's literally like what's said in many Eastern Philosophies: that the body is a vehicle for consciousness.

Something that's interesting on top of this, that I take from Schrödinger's Mind and Matter, is his idea of free will. Studying Biology and Neuroscience really gives us an inside into how programmed we are. Like the idea that everything is really a chemical reaction, one after another, since the big bang. Yet, from a human perspective, we have free will. I can consciously raise my arm and tell you that I did it on purpose. And with that, the ability to manipulate physical matter from something that seems to be outside physical reality, is an amazing feat. :sun:

Within studying The Mind-Body, there always seems to be different definitions of what everything is. In the way that I'm talking about it, I'm saying that the Mind is Consciousness.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: deff]
    #14776154 - 07/16/11 04:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wow! Very informative. :Awemazing:

There are so many different sects all with different ideas. I think they all ring a lil' bit of truth.

Quote:


i like to take a somewhat middle approach in that i think mind and body are neither totally separate nor totally inseperable, and instead they have a very interdependent relationship. this explains how physical yogas impact the mind and other obvious things like drugs, diet etc - but also allows room for understanding transmigration of the subtle mind. my understanding is that the very subtle mind goes life to life and incarnates, and during this incarnation process a new gross mind is formed with each new body. this gross mind is the day-to-day mind we're used to, and is very much dependent on the body for its functioning, including brain function. the subtle mind, which is the basis for this gross mind, is not dependent on the body but is attached to it, and when this attachment is severed at death it transmigrates. the subtle mind is experienced in deep meditation, during the sleep process, and at the time of death.

so as for the gross conceptual mind, i think this is very much inseperable with the body much like how scientific materialists think, but unlike materialists this mind's cognition is supported by a subtler mind which is entirely non-physical and survives physical death.




I think this is very accurate. I can identify a lot with your description of the subtle mind experienced in deep meditation and sleep. Very well said. :cool: With my experiences, they all kind of point me in this direction of understanding the Mind-Body relationship that you described.

I'm still interested in the Vajrayana interpretations that you mentioned. I don't think I've heard anything like that. All very cool stuff.

Thanks a lot for pointing me in the right direction! That's a lot for me to ponder in one night. :wink:

Also, out of curiosity, where did you pull your big quote from? I'm very interested where you got that from.


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14776604 - 07/16/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

the big quote comes from shantideva's guide to a bodhisattva's way of life

this is a very good translation i find: http://www.amazon.com/Way-Bodhisattva-Shambhala-Library/dp/1590306147/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

though it's also available online at: http://www.shantideva.net/guide_ch1.htm

:sun:


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14776998 - 07/16/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The mind & body are separate as the mind can migrate from one body to the next, but ultimately they are part of the same one play.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: deff]
    #14777375 - 07/16/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deff said:
the big quote comes from shantideva's guide to a bodhisattva's way of life

this is a very good translation i find: http://www.amazon.com/Way-Bodhisattva-Shambhala-Library/dp/1590306147/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

though it's also available online at: http://www.shantideva.net/guide_ch1.htm

:sun:




Awesome! Thanks a lot! Bookmarked. :evil:

Quote:

The Chronic said:
The mind & body are separate as the mind can migrate from one body to the next, but ultimately they are part of the same one play.




Do you mind elaborating on them being part of the same one play? :strokebeard: I think I get what you're trying to say, yet I'm confused. :lol:


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14780332 - 07/17/11 03:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What we call the 'the mind' is a stream of thoughts/tendencies/memories/karma, that thrives on identifying self with form (bodies), so at death (or on strong psychedelics) the mind can leave one form & attach itself to another (samsara/death/rebirth cycle) or if it finds liberation from attachment (Nirvana) it merges/dissolves into its own nature - universal being which is the all, so it was only ever the universal being dressing up as mind, body etc... they have the same one source.

Threw in a bit of buddhism for ya aswell :wink:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14781484 - 07/17/11 12:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with what deff said about the Vajrayana's acknowledgement of the mind-body as an instrument, but that is the result of an Enlightenment at the Brain Center, after which the Transpersonal Consciousness descends through the Centers, transforming them into vehicles of Enlightened Mind. This "Ascent Towards Universalization" is thus followed by a "Descent Towards Realization" in the Heart Center. The descending process is referred to by the seed syllables OM-AH-HUM (Brain, Throat, Heart Centers respectively).

Prior to an Enlightenment, we tend to live in the natural motives of the first three Centers (as in the descriptions of Hindu Tantra: survival, sex, social power). These motives characterize life in and as a physical body primarily. An Enlightenment (OM) can bring an experience of oneself as Pure Consciousness, Light, Energy, etc.. So, the lower Centers represent the Earth pole (Smad). The Enlightenment represents the Heaven pole (Stod) of the continuum between physical and psychical, and the Heart Center (Bar) represents a Realization that we exist as a continuum of consciousness from unconsciousness to consciousness to superconsciousness.

Behind all the variations of consciousness lies the Ground State, Rigpa, the Clear Light of Unmitigated Reality, Sunyata, the Void. It is only 'void' of form in its unmanifest aspect (Nirvana), yet all form and content (Samsara) arise from this Void. The Creator-God is not posited by Buddha as First Cause only because it is absurd to posit anything about an unknown. Buddha refused to talk about Brahman. Buddhism is about Liberation from suffering, not about speculations on the nature and intentions of the Divine Source of all ideas, forms, contents of Samsara. Ultimately, in Buddhism of all schools, 'Nirvana is Samsara, and Samsara is Nirvana.' This metaphysic cannot be equated with western theology without it being called Pantheism. So, Creator in not equal to creation. Being monist, not monotheistic, Buddhism does not admit of an essential Zoroastrian/Gnostic dualism. Even these historically based trends in Dualism fall short of representing Ultimate Reality which cannot help but be reduced to ONE. This harkens back to certain mystical experiences of Unity, as well to the logic of scientific thought wherein the Great Chain of Being can be reduced to simpler and simpler forms of matter and energy back to the Singularity (ONE) of the Big Bang.

The Anatta doctrine of Buddha comes from the historical confusion whereby philosophers confounded  Jivatma, the individualized consciousness and Atman, which was not the possession of any individual. In the highest sense, THAT which was called Atman was the aspect of Ultimate Reality that was realizable in human consciousness. The original Upanishadic notion was that 'Atman is Brahman.' The best parallel might be in the West that 'God was in Christ,' and that for someone to "be in Christ," means to be in that consciousness in which one experiences the Eternal co-existing with one's psychophysical (mind-body) life. For Buddha, as for the Christian mystic, the Sufi mystic, etc., there is no personal immortality. There is Eternal Life, Sunyata, but it is not 'us,' in any egoic sense. That egoic-mind is what has to be thinned out. It is comprised of our identification with our body, our possessions, our thoughts, memories, sensations. All of these 'forms' are impermanent. Only Pure Consciousness is Eternal. It is formless. It is ineffable. In ANY religion, IT alone is REAL[ITY].


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10 Commandments [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14781957 - 07/17/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.

Edited by UILECHUMHACHTACH (11/18/15 06:18 AM)

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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: Troll Bot]
    #14782104 - 07/17/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Zen is all about non-duality. Mind is no mind, there is no inside or outside, etc. Many Zen masters will say "not two," or "don't make inside or outside."

The mind that becomes one with the Universe is not one that makes divisions.

Then again, true nonduality makes no distinction between dualism and monism. :lol:

My interpretation of the mind-body problem is that there is no mind-body problem. The mind is the body, body is the mind.


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14782598 - 07/17/11 05:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
The mind is the body, body is the mind.




I suspect this is true but remain a little fuzzy on the details of how this is actually the case.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: Troll Bot]
    #14782607 - 07/17/11 05:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

EAPoe said:
I'm reading a Buddhist book now on the mind-body thing

It talks about yogic breathing and hatha yoga used to improve a certain type of meditation.

The book talks about how many Buddhists frown upon yoga becaue the Buddha tried yoga but deemed it unworthy or asa form of self mortification or something like that.




This is a typical response by people who just don't understand the books they're reading. Yes, Siddhartha Gautama, of the Sakya clan, left his wealthy family (they were not Brahmins, Kshatria I think) and became a wandering ascetic for some 7 years. It's difficult to say anything definitive because numbers often hold symbolic meanings in religious writings. The Bible, for example, is rife with symbolic 40 days: of fasting, wandering, flooding, etc. At any rate, as the story goes, when Siddhartha was practically dead of starvation, he accepted some milk and rice gruel from a woman. A WOMAN! Holy f**king sh*t. You can't look or touch a woman if you're a sadhu! He recovered enough strength from the food to meditate without losing focus. Duh! He realized the Middle Way. At that point, he was skewed way down to the ascetic end of the Hermit-Hedonist continuum.

Yoga means 'yoke' or 'union,' i.e., with Ultimate Reality. The Buddha's methods ARE yogic, even if the philosophical premises were changed. Vajrayana Buddhism:  Ningma, Sakya, Kagyu, and Gelug all derive their traditions from the great yogi Padmasambhava. Philosophical Hinduism, as Buddhists will tell you, really developed after the Buddhist influence. Vedic priests had conducted many bloody sacrifices and hardly espoused the virtue of Ahimsa (non-harm) and Satyagraha (non-violent resistance) that Mohandas Gandhi practiced and taught the world. These were Buddhist values.


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: Chronic7]
    #14783000 - 07/17/11 06:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. :P

I see what you're saying, and agree. :lol:


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: NetDiver]
    #14783004 - 07/17/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Then again, true nonduality makes no distinction between dualism and monism. :lol:




I lol'd.

It's interesting that you mention that though. I'm currently reading Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and in it, Suzuki says:

Quote:

After some years, we will die. If we just think that it is the end of our life, this will be the wrong understanding. But, on the other hand, if we think that we do not die, this is also wrong. We die, and we do not die. This is the right understanding. Some people may say that our mind or soul exists forever, and it is only our physical body which dies. But this is not exactly right, because both mind and body have their end. But at the same time it is also true that they exist eternally. And even though we say mind and body, they are actually two sides of one coin. This is the right understanding.




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Invisibler72rock
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14783068 - 07/17/11 07:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wow, that was extremely informative. :laugh: Thanks!

Quote:


The Anatta doctrine of Buddha comes from the historical confusion whereby philosophers confounded  Jivatma, the individualized consciousness and Atman, which was not the possession of any individual. In the highest sense, THAT which was called Atman was the aspect of Ultimate Reality that was realizable in human consciousness. The original Upanishadic notion was that 'Atman is Brahman.' The best parallel might be in the West that 'God was in Christ,' and that for someone to "be in Christ," means to be in that consciousness in which one experiences the Eternal co-existing with one's psychophysical (mind-body) life. For Buddha, as for the Christian mystic, the Sufi mystic, etc., there is no personal immortality. There is Eternal Life, Sunyata, but it is not 'us,' in any egoic sense. That egoic-mind is what has to be thinned out. It is comprised of our identification with our body, our possessions, our thoughts, memories, sensations. All of these 'forms' are impermanent. Only Pure Consciousness is Eternal. It is formless. It is ineffable. In ANY religion, IT alone is REAL[ITY].




I really liked this paragraph. I feel like another way of saying it is, in order to merge with with the eternal, an individual cannot exist. The Egoic-mind (and person all together for that matter) must vanish.

Quote:

Behind all the variations of consciousness lies the Ground State, Rigpa, the Clear Light of Unmitigated Reality, Sunyata, the Void. It is only 'void' of form in its unmanifest aspect (Nirvana), yet all form and content (Samsara) arise from this Void. The Creator-God is not posited by Buddha as First Cause only because it is absurd to posit anything about an unknown. Buddha refused to talk about Brahman. Buddhism is about Liberation from suffering, not about speculations on the nature and intentions of the Divine Source of all ideas, forms, contents of Samsara. Ultimately, in Buddhism of all schools, 'Nirvana is Samsara, and Samsara is Nirvana.' This metaphysic cannot be equated with western theology without it being called Pantheism. So, Creator in not equal to creation. Being monist, not monotheistic, Buddhism does not admit of an essential Zoroastrian/Gnostic dualism. Even these historically based trends in Dualism fall short of representing Ultimate Reality which cannot help but be reduced to ONE. This harkens back to certain mystical experiences of Unity, as well to the logic of scientific thought wherein the Great Chain of Being can be reduced to simpler and simpler forms of matter and energy back to the Singularity (ONE) of the Big Bang.




This really cleared a lot up for me, but there's still one part where I'm confused a bit. (Even though this has more to do with dualism and Buddhism)
I don't get how the Creator is not equal with creation. I guess I sort of understand how, in Buddhism, asking questions about First Cause is considered silly, but it seems like The Buddha did talk about the Void (Nirvana). The Buddha didn't talk about Brahman as you mentioned, but it seems like Buddha did talk about obtaining it (or Nirvana).

I guess this confused me. Either that, or I'm just completely misreading it. :lol:


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14783411 - 07/17/11 08:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In philosophical Hinduism, Brahman is wisely regarded as having a personal aspect - Saguna Brahman, who can be communed with in prayer; and, there is the impersonal, or perhaps preferably transpersonal (because impersonal seems less than personal, while transpersonal goes beyond the personal) - Nirguna Brahman. It is the latter aspect of which the Hindu would say "Neti, neti," because nothing can be affirmed about Nirguna Brahman.
Vaishnavites, worshipers of Vishnu (the Preserver), worship Vishnu in personal aspects as Ram or Krishna (The Supreme Personality of the Godhead).. Although, the Bhagavad Gita does make allowance for the "Impersonalist" of whom it is said, "I worship the plenary expansion of Vishnu in the Lotus of my Heart," i.e., the solitary yogi, not the Bhakta (devotee) of Krishna who dances and chants in a group. But I digress.

The Buddha, coming out of a Brahmanical tradition must have been aware of the various schools of his day, and used the language such as 'anatman' (anatta; Pali), as the absence of a monadic, individual center of eternal life that transmigrates from body to body. No. This had been the doctrine of 'reincarnation' that one often sees illustrated in the Gita as a tiny little Krishna leaving a corpse and entering an infant and so on. Buddha established a doctrine of 'rebirth,' in which the Samskaras dissolve at death, are just as recycled as the carbon, calcium and phosphorus of our physical remains. Sometimes, if enough skandas constellate together, a memory trace of a former lifetime is evolved. This is how they look for reborn lamas in Tibet. They present numerous articles to a child who selects the proper one's from the deceased lama he is believed to be. 

It would appear that Buddha also used Nirguna Brahman, but dropped the mythological, trinitarian Hindu associations. It became Sunya, Sunyata, the Clear Light of the Void, which is as 'empty' a reference imaginable. Emptiness is a recurrent theme in Buddhism, but it is an emptiness that is also a fullness (as the Gnostic word 'Pleroma' means). Void doesn't mean nothing. It means no-thing. It is a formless Reality, but Reality nonetheless.

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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14783721 - 07/17/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, I see. :smile:

Thanks for clearing that up. You are very knowledgeable. :wink:

Quote:

Void doesn't mean nothing. It means no-thing. It is a formless Reality, but Reality nonetheless.




Now this is getting off my topic completely, but I'm very interested in this little tid bit. I like thinking about duality. :lol:

If the void doesn't mean nothing, and it means no-thing, then how can it arise? Mustn't it arise from nothing? For this formless Reality to exist, isn't there a need for no reality to be?

I'm sorry if I'm just misinterpreting it and getting way far off. I understand this wasn't your original point, but you've got me thinking in a bunch of different ways. :laugh: Buddhism and Nothingness is a hefty and confusing subject, heh.


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14783868 - 07/17/11 09:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

nothing exists inherently in buddhism, including emptiness/sunyata - emptiness is empty

emptiness is not a mere negation though, the other aspect to the nature of mind is clarity/luminousity - which means that even though the mind is empty of any inherent existence, there is a constant ongoing cognitive quality - which spontaneously cognizes appearances

if the mind was empty empty, then there would be no appearances and no samsara to be liberated from, etc - but instead it's a play of emptiness and luminousity. to realize these two as a non-dual nature of mind is enlightenment, with unelightened beings these qualities are experienced in a deluded and dualistic fashion.

we can't say the dharmakaya / ultimate reality is a formless *existent* reality for the reason you said. everything is dependently arisen, so dependent on causes and conditions, and therefore lacking inherent existence. 'realizing the absolute' is realizing this emtpiness aspect.

in other traditions, such as brahmanism, they state that absolute reality is inherently existent and that the relative experience is all maya. in buddhism though, nothing is inherently existent, as this would prevent it from functioning in a casual manner with other phenomena. it's not a case that phenomena arise from the dharmakaya/void - but rather that all phenomena actually are the void. the heart sutra makes this point with the quote 'form is emptiness, emptiness is form, emptiness is not other than form, form too is not other than emptiness'. it's easy to get a wrong view of emptiness and think it's some sort of independent absolute reality - but this would violate the 'emptiness is not other than form' line. emptiness is not 'out there' somewhere, it's everything. samsara is nirvana, or something :sun:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14784199 - 07/17/11 10:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Ah, I see. :smile:

Thanks for clearing that up. You are very knowledgeable. :wink:

Quote:

Void doesn't mean nothing. It means no-thing. It is a formless Reality, but Reality nonetheless.




Now this is getting off my topic completely, but I'm very interested in this little tid bit. I like thinking about duality. :lol:

If the void doesn't mean nothing, and it means no-thing, then how can it arise? Mustn't it arise from nothing? For this formless Reality to exist, isn't there a need for no reality to be?

I'm sorry if I'm just misinterpreting it and getting way far off. I understand this wasn't your original point, but you've got me thinking in a bunch of different ways. :laugh: Buddhism and Nothingness is a hefty and confusing subject, heh.




Thanks. I'm just old is all. What else is there, especially from a Buddhist perspective, than to pay attention? I still have lots of questions, so I read and experiment when I can. Life has so many responsibilities, but I've been blessed with a gig for 25 years that gives me summers off (I pray it holds up after this year for 3 more, then I can retire). Besides lawn and pool and home maintenance (which are OK), and my Lady, there is only "Why?"

The Clear Light does not arise. The Clear Light is the Eternal Verity. It simply IS. This is the Ground of Being (Paul Tillich's term in Christian theology). 'Essence precedes existence.' 'Being precedes becoming.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankhara <- Hmmm. Broken link. I tried to replace letters, but still no good. Sankhara or Samshara on Wiki.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/18/11 09:10 AM)

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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: deff]
    #14784929 - 07/18/11 04:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Wow. :nut:

Emptiness is such a crazy subject. :lol: I guess I've never understood it like that.

I was totally thinking about it as an independent absolute reality. I've been studying Buddhism's idea of Emptiness for about half a year, and while I like to think that I understand some of it, I tend to oversimplify it. It's simple, yet complex, yet neither of those. :lol: Every time I seem to learn about it, I learn more that I didn't know in the first place. More to learn. :laugh:


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #14784940 - 07/18/11 04:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That's so cool. I'm glad that you've had that opportunity. Sounds like all's going well. :cool:
Good luck on holding up your job. :laugh: I'm still a youngin' with aspirations to go into Theology, although, I'm unsure of where to go exactly for it, heh.

Also, thanks for the link, I'm reading through it now. Very cool stuff.

Being is. :sun:


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: deCypher]
    #14786746 - 07/18/11 02:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

en is all about non-duality. Mind is no mind, there is no inside or outside, etc. Many Zen masters will say "not two," or "don't make inside or outside."

The mind that becomes one with the Universe is not one that makes divisions.

Then again, true nonduality makes no distinction between dualism and monism.

My interpretation of the mind-body problem is that there is no mind-body problem. The mind is the body, body is the mind.





I see it this way also however I do see the mind as being the creator of the body or the mind is the sort of "matrix" of the body.

Quote:

I suspect this is true but remain a little fuzzy on the details of how this is actually the case.





Yea it is a deep idea and definitely difficult to grasp. This explanation by Meher really gets me thinking.

Quote:

Question [Dr. Abdul Ghani]: "Will material science, in the near or remote future, be able to probe into subtle and higher planes? At the present rate of scientific progress it ought to be possible, if there be continuity or a point of fusion from the material to the subtle."

Meher Baba: "You are going into deeper waters. Now listen carefully. The soul, essentially divine, infinite in existence, knowledge and bliss is, all by itself, the only Reality. Everything else exists only in imagination. The famous and oft-repeated parable of the snake and rope will elucidate the point. The soul somehow imagined the rope to be the snake. This phase engendered fear which, to stretch the simile further, we may call mind. The mind extended itself to grasp it (the snake); this is energy, and actually grappling it means body. Thus we see mind, energy, body, although all three have no existence except in imagination; but in relation to each other they are altogether distinct, separate and independent."

"Although mind emanates energy and energy in essence is mind, nevertheless in expression and form both are distinct and apart. Similarly, body is the outcome of energy, and though identical in essence the function and formation is radically different and independent. To illustrate the point, let us take thread to be mind, and cloth made thereof to represent energy, and clothing to signify body. The cloth here is of thread, but in utility and form is altogether different from thread. The clothing, say a coat, is from thread, but in form and expression is obviously and distinctly apart from cloth and thread."

"The making of cloth and coat from thread is easy and possible, but the return of the coat and cloth to the state of the original thread means the destruction and annihilation of the form and expression of both. Similarly, the emanation of energy and matter from mind is automatic and natural; but the return of matter and energy to mind is almost impossible. This return business is the beginning of spirituality."

"You must have felt by now your question answered by realizing how impossible it is for science to probe the subtle and higher planes. Science is, as yet, a long way off; it has up to now only touched the fringe of the matter. It may, at the most, touch the extreme limits of matter but that will take ages. And who, till then, can vouch for the integrity of this — the present civilization?"




So moving mind is the basis of energy and energy ultimately results in matter. So body requires mind and energy, energy requires mind, and mind is the producer of all three.

Hopefully you get something out of the quote.. it is a very interesting analogy, Mind as fabric, energy as cloth, and the clothing they create as the body (form).

Note the self which is what actually exists independent of anything, it is the sole existence, the landscape on which mind occurs.


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Re: The Mind-Body Problem and Buddhism [Re: r72rock]
    #14786779 - 07/18/11 02:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:
Wow. :nut:

Emptiness is such a crazy subject. :lol: I guess I've never understood it like that.

I was totally thinking about it as an independent absolute reality. I've been studying Buddhism's idea of Emptiness for about half a year, and while I like to think that I understand some of it, I tend to oversimplify it. It's simple, yet complex, yet neither of those. :lol: Every time I seem to learn about it, I learn more that I didn't know in the first place. More to learn. :laugh:




it's a very very difficult thing to learn... i'm not sure if cifficult is the right word, but there's such much depth to something so simple. in buddhist shedras, it's not uncommon for someone to spend 5-7 years full-time just studying emptiness. it's also said that you also need a lot of positive karma to understand it. first you need to understand it conceptually, then you need to realize it non-conceptually - which is the real fruit. it's something that can't just be approached intellectually (though this is important too) but also requires meditation. :sun:


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