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NihilisticDelusion
Awake Awaken
Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 2,042
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Veritas
#14769512 - 07/14/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Being a long time lurker, reading archived threads by Veritas had caught my eye. Hopefully she will make a comeback in the near future. Although, I find DeCypher's posts as equally amusing, and hope to grab his attention.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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I sure hope not. Veritas is my lover and her ex still hangs around the boards. I'd prefer to avoid that awkward situation, even if it's just text.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Veritas lives three houses from me. She continues to be my best friend in many ways. She came to the shroomery to play with me when we were partnered up but now that is over and she say's she has no real interest in the shroomery. Very very occasionally she looks in but doesn't post.
Imo she was the most intelligent and wisest person to ever grace this forum. This place dulled down when she left.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
Sleepwalker said: I sure hope not. Veritas is my lover and her ex still hangs around the boards. I'd prefer to avoid that awkward situation, even if it's just text.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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NihilisticDelusion
Awake Awaken
Registered: 07/14/11
Posts: 2,042
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Agreed with her outstanding posts. Thankfully DeCypher is usually around still. We both share common yet unfortunate situations such as HPPD for instance.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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People like me are the reason she doesn't come here anymore, remember?
She has me on ignore.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14769617 - 07/14/11 08:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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True enough, she was disappointed in the general caliber of discussion here in general.
Don't fret though, I'll still "debate" with you. I have incredibly low standards.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Tropism
ChasingTail
Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Debate!? Is that what this place is about? I thought this was a place to crack a beer and amuse myself when I wanted to sit down for a little while.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
NihilisticDelusion said: Agreed with her outstanding posts. Thankfully DeCypher is usually around still.
Veritas was one of the few quality contributors in this forum. I seldom post here anymore, mostly because the majority of threads are about topics that have been beaten to death, revived, and shot again just for good measure. I do lurk for the occasional few gems of original insight and, of course, to watch tender nooblings get mercilessly shredded by the resident seasoned debaters.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: Tropism]
#14771068 - 07/15/11 05:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tropism said: Debate!? Is that what this place is about? I thought this was a place to crack a beer and amuse myself when I wanted to sit down for a little while.
Yes that's really in effect correct. But we play a debate forum on TV,
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14771093 - 07/15/11 05:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: People like me are the reason she doesn't come here anymore, remember?
She has me on ignore.
Keep calling me asshole Frock and I may have to do the same.
Now go have that cookie you deserve it.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Tropism
ChasingTail
Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Quote:
Yes that's really in effect correct. But we play a debate forum on TV,
Hehe, yeah. It isn't a too bad a show either some times. ND's got some good taste in posters, the two in the OP have left some excellent writings around here, and so have many others, and together this place has shared some amazing conversations. Some that may have be meaningful and significant to many more than those involved.
Does anyone else around here think about the idea that the Shroomery might have had just one good shot, and those particular conversations really were the blood sweat and tears of PS&S? The debates will continue, but it's becoming more and more evident that the old ones in this place and the holders of those excellent conversations are growing tiresome of it here.
These days less and less truly inspiring debate is found in this forum, questions without answers are repeated ad nauseum, and people get tired of the same old mary-go-round. Yet even as in old age one still finds magic in the same setting sun they've witness their entire life, there is still something to be said for having the same old conversation with someone new, because a sunset is always new to someone.
Part of me feels this forum might wither in the coming decade, but who's to say what youth will bring here. It may be revitalized, it may not, and perhaps all you whippersnappers should take that as a challenge.
Here's to all the awesome people and all the awesome posts, and how full of awe I feel to realize they all keep coming back here to this place that doesn't really exist. Many posters here have become more than just names and text to me and have become deep characters in this strange part of my life, and let that fact be a reminder of how deeply our subjectivity goes.
I've never met any of you, but many of your are very dear to me. Cheers.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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I've never called you asshole Frock.
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Tropism
ChasingTail
Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14774039 - 07/15/11 05:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I thought you were Frock?
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: Veritas [Re: Tropism]
#14774047 - 07/15/11 05:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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What is Frock?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14774062 - 07/15/11 05:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Tropism
ChasingTail
Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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You've got to be frocking kidding me.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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That's about what a frock is, but what is Frock?
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: Veritas [Re: Tropism]
#14774079 - 07/15/11 05:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well don't go namecalling if you don't know what they mean.
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Tropism
ChasingTail
Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14774112 - 07/15/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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What isn't Frock, is more like it. and haven't noned name no one any name I have named them mahself, ya hear?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14774190 - 07/15/11 06:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: What is Frock?
Sometimes I truly cannot tell whether or not you're being ridiculously sarcastic or hopelessly pedantic. "What is ?"
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14774203 - 07/15/11 06:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: That's about what a frock is, but what is Frock?
It's a frock with an idiot inside it as far as I know. I'm just guessing of course.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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pendantic: 1. To be a very pompous person who likes to wear plaid button up shirts with the sleeves rolled up, leather shoes, and fancy watches.
Hmm.
Sarcastic? Nah.
The point of asking any "What is X?" question is to force people to reevaluate what they think they know about a subject. Take for example, the question of "What is knowledge?" I certainly don't have an answer to that question, but I have heard, well gee, a great many number of them. I ask the question a lot, not just on here but I ask it and similar ones in person when it comes up.
Some people when they answer that question believe they know what knowledge is, but when they try to actually say it they fail to ever provide a coherent or sound, non-circular definition.
And that happens a whole lot, whether or not people want to admit it, I myself have never heard a definition of knowledge I could live with or die for. They are all hopelessly devoid perfection.
So instead of just "going with it" when I hear people say "I know this" or any other similar statements about one's being that are about things that are not observable, such as widsom, honor, justice, goodness, badness, etc. I ask the question. Why do I ask the question? Because it is honesty. To do otherwise would, for me, be the equivalent of deceiving a person, or at least, playing into someone else's self-deceit. And I just don't roll like that.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Where on the inside? Or is this an immaterial idiot?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14774312 - 07/15/11 06:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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inside the frock, like I just said.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14774348 - 07/15/11 06:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: The point of asking any "What is X?" question is to force people to reevaluate what they think they know about a subject.
You have a much too optimistic viewpoint on the power of the Socratic method.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: Imo she was the most intelligent and wisest person to ever grace this forum. This place dulled down when she left.
Seconded.
I've been coming to the shroomery in spurts on and off for 11 fucking years. Veritas is the only member I "miss." Her posts added to my life. I feel like I've continued to grow in her direction.
I have an ambivalent relationship to this place. I have an ambivalent relationship to the real world as well. People like Veritas make me feel less ambivalent. Sadly she has left the shroomery. Sadly as well, I find myself, in the real world, currently surrounded by assholes. I can only hope that some day I'll find myself in a community in the real world where people like her and Ice live three doors down. I feel like we could get into the right kind of trouble.
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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I'm sure she would be gratified to know that you thought so highly of her. Just know that she is very happy and healthy these days.
Maybe you should come out and visit sometime. I can put you up for a couple of days at least. She is really fun in person and as most who have met me have noted. I'm not nearly so cranky in person.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'm sure she would be gratified to know that you thought so highly of her. Just know that she is very happy and healthy these days.
Maybe you should come out and visit sometime. I can put you up for a couple of days at least. She is really fun in person and as most who have met me have noted. I'm not nearly so cranky in person.
Glad to hear she is well.
I travel constantly so maybe a drop in isn't out the question. Where do y'all live? I want to say Idaho for some reason...
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Oregon
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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PSP gathering at Ice's house?
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Quote:
DieCommie said: PSP gathering at Ice's house?
I'll bring the chips and guac.
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
DieCommie said: PSP gathering at Ice's house?
You bring the XTC.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14858190 - 08/01/11 07:32 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes yes you're invited too.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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I can neither get nor afford high class drugs like that.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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A message came in for you from Veritas.
Tell him "non illegitamatus carburundum."
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
Icelander said: A message came in for you from Veritas.
Tell him "non illegitamatus carburundum."
Which roughly translated means "you are not illegitamate"
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Not quite.
"Non illigitimus carborundum" is not proper Latin. Rather, it uses the principles of Latin grammar to make a play on words. A joke for language or grammar lovers, it means "Don't let the bastards grind you down."
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: A message came in for you from Veritas.
Tell him "non illegitamatus carburundum."
thanks
My current hope is "there's much to be learned from swimming with sharks as long as they don't bite off what you'll need to use to swim away"
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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just don't swim with them so long that you forget to swim away.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
Icelander said: Not quite.
"Non illigitimus carborundum" is not proper Latin. Rather, it uses the principles of Latin grammar to make a play on words. A joke for language or grammar lovers, it means "Don't let the bastards grind you down."
Yes. You are not a bastard so why should you listen to them? Just what I said. Sort of.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: just don't swim with them so long that you forget to swim away.
True.
A wise man once told me, in relationship to an even shittier job than the one I have now...
"If you take shit from these fuckers long enough you might learn to like the taste of it."
I think about that often.
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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oh I see.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
Stranger
Registered: 07/13/11
Posts: 17
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Who are these bastards that are grinding people down? Why should anyone put up with their behavior? If Veritas is a good poster, then she should be able to express herself freely.
All I can see here is praise, and you don't see that too often on the internet.
So who or what is she really hiding from, because I can't see it...?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14859884 - 08/02/11 02:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ism said: Who are these bastards that are grinding people down? Why should anyone put up with their behavior? If Veritas is a good poster, then she should be able to express herself freely.
All I can see here is praise, and you don't see that too often on the internet.
So who or what is she really hiding from, because I can't see it...?
Death Anxiety. What else could it be?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14860188 - 08/02/11 05:46 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ism said: Who are these bastards that are grinding people down? Why should anyone put up with their behavior? If Veritas is a good poster, then she should be able to express herself freely.
All I can see here is praise, and you don't see that too often on the internet.
So who or what is she really hiding from, because I can't see it...?
She isn't hiding from anyone. Shes removing herself from newbies who make ignorant assumptions and really don't have a clue what they're talking about. Hint hint.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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The one time she put me on ignore and threatened to leave because I called her on her assumptions
She's not that much different than anyone else, IMO.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860518 - 08/02/11 08:25 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who said she was much different than anyone else. Some of us were just giving our opinions as to the quality of poster and person she was.
She occasionally put people on ignore. You were one of them. And thanks for giving us your side of what exactly transpired.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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"Who said she was much different than anyone else."
No one that I'm aware of
We don't need my opinion on the matter, just look at the thread. Sorry, quotes incoming:
Quote:
Quote: Veritas said: Cells in the human body are replaced at different rates, with the exception of the brain. The "seven year turnover" myth arose from the average lifespan of somatic cells.
Muscle cells live about 15 years, whereas epidermal cells slough off daily.
Our brain cells are the same ones we were born with, though many of the original cells die off during our lifetime & we do form new neural connections.
IOW, the brain that remembers childhood IS the brain that was present for childhood events.
Quote:
xFrockx said:
Don't the cells self-repair/regulate? Are the cells that remember childhood composed of the same molecules and atoms as they were when they were in childhood, or is the structure of the cell what is constant, while its composition is in flux?
This is where our disagreement began. It's a basic philosophical question, normally called the Ship of Thesues problem. Its about a ship that has had all its parts replaced, whether it is the same ship. Veritas made the claim that it most definitely was, and that the idea it was a different ship was "new age nonsense". I made no claim either way, but questioned her on what made the ship (or in the case of our actual argument, a person) the same. I asked her what, if there was none of the same parts, made the ship the same, and she refused to answer. We continued though:
Quote:
The parts are not always changing. The human body is composed of living cells, most of which die and are replaced by new cells. Every cell is either successfully based upon the blueprint of our DNA, or is a mutated version of our DNA.
Our brain, particularly the structures in which our memories are "stored," is less variable on the cellular level than other parts of the human body.
To which I replied:
Quote:
So the cells don't have changing parts? The molecules that compose them remain the same throught their cell life? I didn't know that. In fact, I think I've been told different.
To which she replied:
Quote:
A few of the molecules could change if the cell needed to repair damage to essential DNA strands. Claiming that this means the cell is not the same cell is like saying replacing shingles on the roof of your house makes it a different house.
To which I replied:
Quote:
I'm not claiming either way. Are you claiming it is the same roof? Same house? Same cell?
And she confirms her claim:
Quote:
Yes, same roof, same house, same cell. The body is rebuilt according to our DNA, or it deteriorates if we experience too many mutations. Even the mutations cannot be considered something new, as they are merely minor variations upon our theme.
The New Age thinking regarding being "reborn" every 7 years is not based in fact. I don't know whether you, personally, believe in this mythology. My response was directed at those who do.
And I question again:
Quote:
What makes them the same? If the minor mutations do not provide ample reason for us label them new things (and I would agree, they don't), then why do we have ample reason to ignore the minor variations and call them the same things?
She then left the conversation for a long time, and I got you, Ice, to get her to reply. That's when things got nasty.
Quote:
I've lost interest in the discussion. I've already stated my POV and the scientific basis upon which I rely. I don't appreciate the snarky attitude towards me & am not interested in talking to you anymore.
Enjoy your day!
So yeah, you can imagine how I felt after she said that. She had no argument and just decided to be a bitch, IMO. Orgone was reading the thread and noticed it too, I think. He joked about what she said, then you said you wondered what it cost her, and he said "It cost 5 credibility points. More or less my thoughts on the matter
Which is ironic, considering in another thread she said this:
Quote:
"BTW, the burden of proof is on the claimant. You have stated your claim (the universe is intelligence), and thus are responsible for supporting your claim."
Which basically means she is just another giant hypocrite, at least she was that day, but who knows, she may have changed
Edited by xFrockx (08/02/11 09:01 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860600 - 08/02/11 09:07 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I vaguely remember it. I don't see why she said you were being snarky unless there are parts of this conversation you have not included?
Once again I don't think anyone ever claimed she was not a hypocrite. Some of us here were saying she was a favorite poster and person here. Do you need me to repeat this a third time?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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"I don't see why she said you were being snarky unless there are parts of this conversation you have not included?"
I said absoultely nothing to her that was not included here. At one point when she left I joked asking you to get "your woman" to reply. That joke I honestly regret, it wasn't funny and it came from a bad place. I hope that wasn't what turned her off, but I said nothing to her directly in disrespect. I don't know why else I would sound snarky. My posts with all their questions can give that I think, but only if a person is defensive about them like she was, IMO.
"Once again I don't think anyone ever claimed she was not a hypocrite. Some of us here were saying she was a favorite poster and person here. Do you need me to repeat this a third time? "
Once again I don't think anyone claimed that she wasn't. For the record, I claimed that she was, and unlike she did earlier, I am providing evidence. Some of you are posting your opinions about her and I am joining you. Are you uncomfortable with that? I'll stop if you like.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860649 - 08/02/11 09:18 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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No not really. I have no real attachment to her anymore. We are not a couple and our friendship is not as close as it once was. You are certainly entitled to your opinion of her and just as likely to be correct in it as anyone else.
It's just that whenever she comes up in threads you seem to chime in about this one incident and that you were put on ignore. Seems you have some hard feelings on this issue yourself.
Overall IMO, Veritas was the most balanced, logical, intelligent (including emotional intelligence which is very rare imo) person who ever posted here. Was she perfect? Unquestionably no. In fact now that I've known her for over 6 years she seems very imperfect to me. I still consider her very cool and a friend.
So you need not stop. In fact a more complete analysis of her as a poster here would be very interesting to hear. Please do carry on.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (08/02/11 09:21 AM)
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Quote:
DieCommie said: I can neither get nor afford high class drugs like that.
Luckily i have a nice collection that i could bring.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860791 - 08/02/11 10:00 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for quoting that convo. I think it finally answered my question as to how experience is continual, given that an exact replica of you would seemingly not cause you to experience from two points of view at once. I had originally settled on DieCommie's answer of position in time and space being the explanation, but recently i realized that this doesn't make sense either for your position in these dimensions changes throughout your life while experience seems to remain continual. Hearing that brain cells don't change much at all throughout life makes much more sense. I will research it further.
-------------------- Live your Life!
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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"It's just that whenever she comes up in threads you seem to chime in about this one incident and that you were put on ignore. Seems you have some hard feelings on this issue yourself."
I do, to an extent. It's hard not to mention this when people post about her so favorably, for me. It's like if people posted about how great the christian religion was, then posting about the Spanish inquisition and the crusades. Ok, so maybe its not that extreme, but I tend to enjoy bursting people's bubbles whenever the opportunity presents itself.
"Overall IMO, Veritas was the most balanced, logical, intelligent (including emotional intelligence which is very rare imo) person who ever posted here. "
Ok.
"So you need not stop."
I need to? Why? I'll stop if you want me to stop, but as far as a need for it, I see none.
"In fact a more complete analysis of her as a poster here would be very interesting to hear."
I don't have much memory of her posts besides that one thread. If her praise is any indication, I would imagine she writes very beautiful bullshit. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll have to go read.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: Veritas [Re: 4896744]
#14860825 - 08/02/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm glad someone got some use out of it. I didn't think anyone would even read it.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860847 - 08/02/11 10:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is this thread limited to the adoration and only positive memories of said poster? I am leery of expressing my experiences with this poster. Needless to say they were less than satisfactory. I am neither pointing the fingers of blame nor willing to accept any critique about how I may not have been correct in some matter or overreacted. Or whatever other BS someone thinks they may remember. I think I still have it on ignore where it shall stay.
Is the point of this thread personalisms so rules are hereby suspended but only in this case?
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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"Is this thread limited to the adoration and only positive memories of said poster? "
Of course not. Everything here is up for debate.
"I am neither pointing the fingers of blame nor willing to accept any critique about how I may not have been correct in some matter or overreacted. "
This is a hilarious sentence.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860885 - 08/02/11 10:26 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would imagine she writes very beautiful bullshit.
She certainly did. I was in awe at times and that hardly ever happens for me here.
Course I was fucking her at the time.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Ah well, I'm over it. Maybe some time if I come out west I can ask her if she is still the same person as before.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860923 - 08/02/11 10:36 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: I'm over it.
Are you really?
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Good question. Over what? What is "it"? And how would I know if I were over whatever it might be?
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860931 - 08/02/11 10:38 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are putting a lot of energy into something you claim that you are over.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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I thought I just made it clear that I don't really know if I am. Were you reading?
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860947 - 08/02/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Good question. Over what? What is "it"? And how would I know if I were over whatever it might be?
Yes I am reading but are you saying anything?
What am I supposed to understand from this. You said it was a good question then asked a bunch of questions. All I know is you liked my question.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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You asked if I was really over it, and I said it was a good question, and commented on how it dispatched with what I had said. I guess I could have been more clear that I don't know if I am over it, but in any case framing it that way would also seem to be ineffectual. A better way to look at it would be if I do or do not have feelings about the situation any more. I do, but not anything against her. I don't see any reason to hold her in higher regard than anyone else though.
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Sly Stone
Registered: 06/18/11
Posts: 595
Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14860975 - 08/02/11 10:51 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You made a whole post with no question marks.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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There's nothing special about questions, it is just rare that I have them asked of me. Normally that's all I really have for anyone here.
So for your question
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14861025 - 08/02/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well there is one thing I'm pretty certain of. I'm over her. I still like her a lot though.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Just pretty certain? You sound unsure.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14861168 - 08/02/11 11:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: The one time she put me on ignore and threatened to leave because I called her on her assumptions
She's not that much different than anyone else, IMO.
My first encounter with her was when she was defending the 10% brain myth and said Im ignorant of science for not believing it.
Then I gave her a bad rating, and Ice got all mad.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14861229 - 08/02/11 11:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "Is this thread limited to the adoration and only positive memories of said poster? "
Of course not. Everything here is up for debate.
"I am neither pointing the fingers of blame nor willing to accept any critique about how I may not have been correct in some matter or overreacted. "
This is a hilarious sentence.
I think you are funny too.
I mean you talk funny.
Too.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14861277 - 08/02/11 11:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: Just pretty certain? You sound unsure.
Well like you I realize I can never be sure of anything. It just feels that way for awhile now and when she got a new bf I was anxious to meet him and be friends.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
xFrockx said: The one time she put me on ignore and threatened to leave because I called her on her assumptions
She's not that much different than anyone else, IMO.
My first encounter with her was when she was defending the 10% brain myth and said Im ignorant of science for not believing it.
Then I gave her a bad rating, and Ice got all mad.
That's pure bullshit as far as I know. She never ever ever believed that myth and was constantly disavowing it here. You better produce that one homey or stfu.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7614255#7614255
I cant believe I actually found it.
She gave me a snarky comment about not understanding scientific research, I left her a bad rating and you PM'ed me fuming with anger.
I still think shes alright though. That was just a first impression, y'know?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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OK the myth is that humans only use 10% of the brains capacity. That's the myth. Here's what V said.
It was not "made up," it was a misunderstanding of neurological research. When the first studies of brain activity showed that no more than 10% of the brain is active at one time, the public (derrrr...what?) took that to mean that we use only 10% of our brain.
Wow! Imagine what amazing powers we would have if we started using the other 90%! We might even be able to read and comprehend scientific research!
Now you tell me how you got that from this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
Stranger
Registered: 07/13/11
Posts: 17
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Ism said: Who are these bastards that are grinding people down? Why should anyone put up with their behavior? If Veritas is a good poster, then she should be able to express herself freely.
All I can see here is praise, and you don't see that too often on the internet.
So who or what is she really hiding from, because I can't see it...?
She isn't hiding from anyone. Shes removing herself from newbies who make ignorant assumptions and really don't have a clue what they're talking about. Hint hint.
Ohhhh you mean that kind of removal. Strange, but to me that seems to beg the question even more. You don't have to answer if you don't want to though. I can see your sensitive about this.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14861968 - 08/02/11 02:01 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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I already answered your question.
btw who's puppet are you?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
Stranger
Registered: 07/13/11
Posts: 17
Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
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May I be frank for a moment, kind sir? Well, it just seems to me like you didn't consider the context of my general query and just picked the question which you might have thought suited you best. Personally, I thought the first question should have come first, and that the second was a consequence of it, but that may just be because I was formulating the question. I should have been more clear I guess.
Anyways, I find it interesting that you say she is removed from some people, because like I said, this begs the question of why she referred to any bastards around here. Who are the "bastards"? What are they like in disposition to a person who is purportedly ambivalent to them?
Isn't "bastard" a name usually given to an oppressor or enemy, perhaps someone who is either more powerful than oneself, or otherwise at least someone you are in some way contending with? Isn't this an expression of resentment, rather than the expression of "removal", or detachment, as you have claimed?
For instance, consider the question from the other way around; if someone claims to be removed or superior to another person, why would they also have reason to call the person a bastard? If someone truly holds power, does one respond in bitterness and anger to who one is purportedly ambivalent to? I don't think so. That's why I think your answer is wrong.
This is why I asked the question who are the bastards, seemed interesting to me, and even more so in light of what you said. I am becoming even more curious who the bastards are - who they are in regards to what they are like in relative disposition to the superior person. In that sense what possibly warrants the name "bastard" from someone ostensibly "removed" from them?
To put it formally, isn't something that you resent, something that is first of all necessarily part of one's "world" or "reality", something relavent to you, or somehow concerning you? In other words, isn't someone you call a bastard, someone you can't say you are simply ambivalent to? Isn't it rather the case, that a bastard, is someone you are necessarily contending with, and this is why you use that name?
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14862814 - 08/02/11 04:40 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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"Isn't "bastard" a name usually given to an oppressor or enemy, perhaps someone who is either more powerful than oneself, or otherwise at least someone you are in some way contending with? Isn't this an expression of resentment, rather than the expression of "removal", or detachment, as you have claimed?""
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14862866 - 08/02/11 04:51 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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You and Frock are both in error. She was referring to the Bastards in the OP by Gluke Bastid where he said I have an ambivalent relationship to the real world as well and not people she knew or posted with on these forums. He was stating that he was dealing with difficult people and and she was giving him a personal message about not letting them get to him. For her this had nothing to do with her relationships to anyone here. It was not meant for anyone else but the OP and I stated that in this thread.
I hope this clears things up for you and for Frock, who might be expected to be paying more attention to detail here. But his need for possible delayed revenge seems to have gotten the better of him.
Edited by Icelander (08/02/11 05:03 PM)
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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I think Veritas left pretty early on in my Shroomery life. From what I saw she seemed like a smart person, that's all I can really say.
Funnily enough, in my quest to sort out the various personalities residing here, she became packaged basically as "Icelander's woman" in my mind.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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So just replace the word "bastards" with "snarky" and what do you have to say?
It is ok if she "distances herself" from other people who threaten the beliefs she holds. Like any person, it is possible to get quite attached to the ideas that one holds close to themselves, and when these are challenged, it can represent a challenge not just to the ideas, but to the person with them.
So I'm not going to fault her for wanting to protect herself from change. It seems like something people do almost automatically. When one thinks they are are "good," "sane," "balanced" or any of the many other things one might use in praise to describe Veritas, it can be difficult to accept change, because why change if you're already there?
So with so much praise, it is little surprise to me that Veritas would not want to come here and be questioned, shown to hold assumptions, etc. any of the things that might challenge her established esteem in herself and her ideas. It would be easy from the perspective from one to receives a lot of praise to assume those who question or disagree with you are somehow worse off, less than, or just plain snarky. It's not the fault of Veritas, so much as it is the fault of those who give her unnecessary praise. If she accepts that such praise is true, it is no surprise she has an ego, if you'll excuse my psycho-babble.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14863036 - 08/02/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: "Isn't "bastard" a name usually given to an oppressor or enemy, perhaps someone who is either more powerful than oneself, or otherwise at least someone you are in some way contending with? Isn't this an expression of resentment, rather than the expression of "removal", or detachment, as you have claimed?""
If you fucked your sister you may have a bastard son.
Or something like that.
You know frock
I love you
But now I go
On a Permanent
Vatican.
Full of guilt and religious innuendos.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14863101 - 08/02/11 05:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
xFrockx said: So just replace the word "bastards" with "snarky" and what do you have to say?
It is ok if she "distances herself" from other people who threaten the beliefs she holds. Like any person, it is possible to get quite attached to the ideas that one holds close to themselves, and when these are challenged, it can represent a challenge not just to the ideas, but to the person with them.
So I'm not going to fault her for wanting to protect herself from change. It seems like something people do almost automatically. When one thinks they are are "good," "sane," "balanced" or any of the many other things one might use in praise to describe Veritas, it can be difficult to accept change, because why change if you're already there?
So with so much praise, it is little surprise to me that Veritas would not want to come here and be questioned, shown to hold assumptions, etc. any of the things that might challenge her established esteem in herself and her ideas. It would be easy from the perspective from one to receives a lot of praise to assume those who question or disagree with you are somehow worse off, less than, or just plain snarky. It's not the fault of Veritas, so much as it is the fault of those who give her unnecessary praise. If she accepts that such praise is true, it is no surprise she has an ego, if you'll excuse my psycho-babble.
What the fuck is the matter with you?
You really do have a major grudge because he thought so little of your abilities as a poster here. Or so it would seem to you.
Anyway as I said she was giving someone else a personal message that had nothing to do with the people here as far as she was concerned. Something that still seems to bypass your limited view.
On a personal level she told me she was bored with the repetition and the inability of people to debate with evidence as opposed to personal opinion only which is something I continually complain about here. The other thing is that she originally came to play with me here when we first met. When we split there was some pain involved and she didn't need or want to be around me. She went back to the life she had before which did not include this place. Her time here was not a major event in her life like it is for you and I. She's not a kid and never would have come here if it weren't for my interest in this place. Get the fuck over it will you? Her comment had nothing to do with you at all.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: You and Frock are both in error. She was referring to the Bastards in the OP by Gluke Bastid where he said I have an ambivalent relationship to the real world as well and not people she knew or posted with on these forums. He was stating that he was dealing with difficult people and and she was giving him a personal message about not letting them get to him. For her this had nothing to do with her relationships to anyone here. It was not meant for anyone else but the OP and I stated that in this thread.
I hope this clears things up for you and for Frock, who might be expected to be paying more attention to detail here. But his need for possible delayed revenge seems to have gotten the better of him.
If it wasn't clear, I got the message, at least, and it was much appreciated.
-------------------- Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
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"What the fuck is the matter with you?"
Now that is a good question.
"You really do have a major grudge because he thought so little of your abilities as a poster here. Or so it would seem to you."
That's how it would seem yes. To be honest though, the feeling I had when she said she'd lost interest in our discussion was more disappointment than anything. I can remember the feeling quite well and it wasn't anger. It was like the feeling I would have if I was taking time to help someone do something, and at the last minute before the thing was done they say "Oh nevermind, I don't want your help anyway." I'm not saying that is what it was, that is just how it felt to me.
"Anyway as I said she was giving someone else a personal message that had nothing to do with the people here as far as she was concerned. Something that still seems to bypass your limited view."
You're focusing on the bastards thing when in reality I was never really trying to make a claim about that to begin with. If we must hold on to insults she has made of people, let's stick with her calling me snarky. I already read that thread.
"On a personal level she told me she was bored with the repetition and the inability of people to debate with evidence as opposed to personal opinion only which is something I continually complain about here. "
From the basis of our conversation, this sounds like pure projection on her part. And to be honest, you argue with your years more than you argue with evidence.
"The other thing is that she originally came to play with me here when we first met."
Yes, we all are well aware of your personal connection to her.
"She's not a kid and never would have come here if it weren't for my interest in this place."
But wait... I thought she came here for you? Was she interested in this place, or was she interested in you?
"Get the fuck over it will you? Her comment had nothing to do with you at all. "
You're right, even in regards to when she directly called me snarky. I don't make shit like this personal. I see it as as natural as steam escaping from a loaded pressure cooker. I just took my lid off a long time ago.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Veritas [Re: xFrockx]
#14863633 - 08/02/11 07:16 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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She was interested in me. She wanted to play with me and here is where I was. She made the attempt but her interest often wained and long before she left. But did she have some fun here and make an attempt to influence this place? Yes it appears so. But she was used to debate in college with professors and found this place often wanting according to her. You are bitter about her reaction to you and this place that certainly seems apparent. But maybe she was just a bitch and a no account here? In the end I don't know. I just know I had by far the best conversations I've ever had with another human being with her and they influenced many of what I consider my best threads here. In the end it doesn't matter much to me anymore. That's all past and this is what is going on now. I'm just glad I didn't start the thread But then why would I?
But you need to be careful cause I can put a spell on your ass and you won't be posting here for long. In fact I think I'll do it right now. Poof!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
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Three pages already and no one has bothered to mention that Icelander and Veritas are both Swami/OrgoneConclusion's puppets?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Sly Stone
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Loc: Never get out of the boat
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Re: Veritas [Re: Lion]
#14864563 - 08/02/11 10:02 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said: Three pages already and no one has bothered to mention that Icelander and Veritas are both Swami/OrgoneConclusion's puppets?
Who isn't?
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Kickle
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-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Lion]
#14865960 - 08/03/11 06:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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There you mentioned it. Feel better? Go home now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
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I am home.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Lion]
#14866238 - 08/03/11 08:03 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Awww that's so sweet.
In a pathetic sort of way.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Veritas [Re: Lion]
#14866292 - 08/03/11 08:20 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The main difference between Icelander and Lion is that Lion forgot he is one of my puppets.
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Icelander
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I know there is a god and silly lion things he has free will.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
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Quote:
Icelander said: Awww that's so sweet.
In a pathetic sort of way.
Would it be less pathetic if I were posting from a public library?
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: The main difference between Icelander and Lion is that Lion forgot he is one of my puppets.
If I remembered, would I explode?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Veritas [Re: Lion]
#14866579 - 08/03/11 10:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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The shock would be extreme. Go back to sleep...
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Lion]
#14866585 - 08/03/11 10:16 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Would it be less pathetic if I were posting from a public library?
Yes
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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BlueCoyote
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Veritas would have been more my range of age anyhow
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Ism
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Yo, Icelander. How's it hanging? I thought I'd give another shot at this thread, and respond to your last post to me.
Quote:
Icelander said: You and Frock are both in error. She was referring to the Bastards in the OP by Gluke Bastid where he said I have an ambivalent relationship to the real world as well and not people she knew or posted with on these forums. He was stating that he was dealing with difficult people and and she was giving him a personal message about not letting them get to him. For her this had nothing to do with her relationships to anyone here. It was not meant for anyone else but the OP and I stated that in this thread. I hope this clears things up for you and for Frock, who might be expected to be paying more attention to detail here. But his need for possible delayed revenge seems to have gotten the better of him.
So you’ve already said that there is some reality beyond me, to which either my question, or myself as an outsider, has not been subtle enough to address. But see, I think maybe being exterior may be the best way to go about this, and even what you are most inclined to listen to, (for instance, as compared to what you and others think of being interior to this “forum” or “discussion here".)
I know... this is mostly a joke, and one that I'm not allowed to laugh at. Maybe there is some truth to it though? Although it would be absurd to suggest a special place for an outsider, maybe I can at least describe an opening, a possibility, or a contingency for doing philosophy in general. In that way, of course, I can't say that I'd like to do anything but opportunely impose myself, but I don't think this is wrong.
It's my belief that a competitive spirit is all that is needed to produce good philosophy. This can occur in an environment, if people are basically inclined to let it happen. On the other hand, I don't really understand why people would maintain and entertain pretensions and platitudes over their own, or to their competition, or to the quality of discussion. If someone is not finding adequate competition, wouldn't this only indicate that he or she is dwelling in a comfort zones?
Maybe I wouldn't be able to point it out in other environments, but this seems to ring especially true in philosophical circles. There are such diversities and possibilities of opinion, and so many apparent opportunities for contention, that some have referred to philosophy as "a game of objectives, without rules". It would at least seem that there is no real overarching framework for philosophy, but rather more convincingly, a basic organizing principal of “arguments” between dispositions and wills. Suppose as Nietzsche thought, that truth is a woman...Sound familiar?
Yet even upon observing the apparent openness of these conflicting wills, there doesn’t seem to really be any truly martial aspect of "philosophy" relative to a "society" in general. For the seemingly infinite possibilities for contention, it would seem that there would have to be just as many possibilities for withdrawal. It might seem then, that withdrawal is as much a genuine aspect of western philosophy, as other traditions have maintained.
We must admit some things, at least. To any sensibility that you and I might entertain, we know very well that a person may easily, and not just “unnaturally”, assume an attitude of apparent mental lethargy, by only looking away from, and hence dissolving any common basis for philosophical contention. What can we say tp this, if philosophy seems to be at best based on perspective? As it turns out, not everyone is “a philosopher”, and yet, any person may certainly have their own view, come the right circumstance, and may even be inclined to argue that it is the philosophers who have not faced up to the reality of their own encaved existence. How much more amusing are the ones who fancy themselves "philosophers" due to this very condition! Today, there are certainly many of these encaved personalities (I'd say, partly thanks to technology) who seem to think that for that very reason of their isolation and dimness of perspective, they fit some image of a Socrates.
It seems that anyone can and will contend for a worldview, by claims to what is “relatively” or “absolutely” the case. But these broad brush strokes, though they are the characteristic marks of the "philosopher”, aren’t simply the overarching truths or authorities within the discipline. Neither seems to stand for a winner. We know these gestures more realistically as modal operators of dialogue. (For instance, see “Relativism and the Foundations of Philosophy”: A self refuting relativistic argument stating “everything is relative” - including that proposition - may be better posed as “everything true is relatively true.” In other words, relativism may be true for philosophical propositions.)
In any case, we know, for instance, that the relativistic gestures (appeals to perspective, subjectivity, etc.) that anyone can make at any point in a discussion, to trump any other claim, do not necessarily correspond with a competitive philosophical integrity. Solipsism, for instance, a consistency of retracting subjectivity, may seem like a firm basis for philosophical contention to the novice, because it is the "least speculative" disposition. But merely for this, the solipsist only looks into the cave, and not out.
Again not everything that seems to "withdraw" is just a failure to philosophically contend though. I would not just say that relativistic gestures, or appeals to perspective, are inherently “weak” in a discussion at all. For instance, Icelander, you have said that an “attention to detail” is expected, and I think it would be fair to say that your arguments directed to me have all been primarily concerned with relevancy and context, over the particular content for discussion that I’ve suggested. Of course I can’t assume that you are just avoiding seeing my question in your relative appeal to perspective, because at least covertly, you were challenging me, or “expecting” a possibility of a positive representation.
In precisely that sense, context and detail may not simply refer to perspective. I know that if you are at all serious, you are suggesting a preferred method or possibility of doing philosophy. I will assume that this is compositional, or (at risk of appearing a bit foppish) a form "positively exquisite in detail and context".
OK, what I mean is, rather than simply disparaging the philosophical medium, I take it you prefer a method of writing over the briefer and more direct dialectical exchanges I’ve previously attempted? I assume that this is also what you and others really mean when you’ve said that you don’t prefer the "discussion" around here...
I would assume this, because again, I am hoping for the possibility of an interesting discussion. Generally, I tend to believe that people may be subtle, rather than just passive. I choose to see people this way, because I think it is the only way of truly living.
For instance, I was further encouraged to respond to this thread again, based on seeing a quote in your signature, where Don Juan says "a warrior cannot complain". I think you know this better than as an imposed sense of discipline. Being a warrior is just the only significant possibility of existing. What's the alternative?
So... to a positive possibility, what I have attempted to describe as opening, I would like to further respond in kind. Here, I’ve only begun to reflect in form, but would like to also address your concerns in specific. Of course, rather than being entirely presumptuous, I thought I’d see first if you are interested in such a debate.
Have you ever read Nietzsche? He preferred to express philosophy through written composition, over dialectic. He certainly wasn't just passive for this...
"An easy prey is something contemptible for proud natures. They feel good only at the sight of unbroken men who might become their enemies and at the sight of all possessions that are hard to come by. Against one who is suffering they are often hard because he is not worthy of their aspirations and pride; but they are doubly obliging toward their peers whom it would be honorable to fight if the occasion should ever arise. Spurred by the good feeling of this perspective, the members of the knightly caste became accustomed to treating each other with exquisite courtesy." - Nietzsche, The Gay Science I.13
Maybe a bit of this "exquisite courtesy" would enliven things around here? Maybe by giving a positive example of detail and context through an "exterior" form of writing, it would be possible to better qualify a basis for competition? This is what I am hoping. Again, I'm going on what you seem to suggest to me.
Then again, I know that there really are some people who think philosophy is just a well fortified, (interior-decorated) cave. Maybe we'll just end up seeing who has the nicest lawn?
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14888580 - 08/08/11 02:42 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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what?
I've often stated here that if it can't be boiled down into a short paragraph it's likely so much malarky. I have to admit I just skimmed a little bit but nothing at all caught my eye.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
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"It is not enough to have a good mind; the main thing is to use it well." - Rene Descartes.
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14889166 - 08/08/11 08:22 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't worry my good man, with practice you will improve most likely.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
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of course.
One would first need to be critical of oneself, and only then of others.
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14890571 - 08/08/11 02:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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My dear old dad taught me how to be critical of myself. God bless his evil soul.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
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Same for probably anyone. And any father probably tends to have gotten the order wrong, at least some of the time.
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14890667 - 08/08/11 02:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Seems like it for most. I see what I see in others because I can see it in myself although it really didn't start out that way. When I was younger I was way to scared too look very hard into the mirror so I had to see it in others and take quick peeks at my own bullshit. I mean just so as not to be overwhelmed with self loathing. It seemed like it was mostly bullshit. Still is actually. Only diff is now I'm a lot more comfortable with being fos.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
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If a father is sadistic towards his kids, might this be for the very reason that he sees something of himself in them? I mean, who says it has to come from an exterior sense of superiority? Suppose on the other hand Dad was just mean to the kids, because he hated himself, and saw himself in them...
In any case, if criticism is to be at all reasonable, can we say its just applying the same criticisms of oneself to others? Just, and only this? If this is necessary basis for criticism, as we have agreed, we still may wonder if it is also a sufficient basis.
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14891013 - 08/08/11 03:22 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Doesn't matter if it's sufficient or not. What matters is what we do. The rest is just fluff we can use to distract ourselves from taking responsibility for our actions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
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But I didn't suggest any alternative reality. I only meant that the reason for such a criticism would be unconvincing.
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14891675 - 08/08/11 05:34 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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then be unconvinced
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Ism
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Is that the least pretentious way you could admit a point Icelander?
Of course I will be unconvinced; that is the only reasonable conclusion. If I know that someone who (like a father) is critical or harsh only for his own personal reasons, the rest of the world, (the child), has no reason to take these reasons seriously.
This is significant because what one chooses to think, likely determines whether or not an abused person assumes the mentality of the abuser (to turn out like his father). This wouldn't be a matter of some present or determined truth, like you imply, but a choice and a conviction to get past one's conditioning.
BTW I Borrowed the previous argument from Plato; see the last question, on what is a sufficient basis for justice.
Quote:
Glaucon - CEPHALUS - SOCRATES
(Socrates speaking)
Accordingly we went with Polemarchus to his house; and there we found his brothers Lysias and Euthydemus, and with them Thrasymachus the Chalcedonian, Charmantides the Paeanian, and Cleitophon the son of Aristonymus. There too was Cephalus the father of Polemarchus, whom I had not seen for a long time, and I thought him very much aged. He was seated on a cushioned chair, and had a garland on his head, for he had been sacrificing in the court; and there were some other chairs in the room arranged in a semicircle, upon which we sat down by him. He saluted me eagerly, and then he said: --
You don't come to see me, Socrates, as often as you ought: If I were still able to go and see you I would not ask you to come to me. But at my age I can hardly get to the city, and therefore you should come oftener to the Piraeus. For let me tell you, that the more the pleasures of the body fade away, the greater to me is the pleasure and charm of conversation. Do not then deny my request, but make our house your resort and keep company with these young men; we are old friends, and you will be quite at home with us.
I replied: There is nothing which for my part I like better, Cephalus, than conversing with aged men; for I regard them as travellers who have gone a journey which I too may have to go, and of whom I ought to enquire, whether the way is smooth and easy, or rugged and difficult. And this is a question which I should like to ask of you who have arrived at that time which the poets call the 'threshold of old age' --Is life harder towards the end, or what report do you give of it?
I will tell you, Socrates, he said, what my own feeling is. Men of my age flock together; we are birds of a feather, as the old proverb says; and at our meetings the tale of my acquaintance commonly is --I cannot eat, I cannot drink; the pleasures of youth and love are fled away: there was a good time once, but now that is gone, and life is no longer life. Some complain of the slights which are put upon them by relations, and they will tell you sadly of how many evils their old age is the cause. But to me, Socrates, these complainers seem to blame that which is not really in fault. For if old age were the cause, I too being old, and every other old man, would have felt as they do. But this is not my own experience, nor that of others whom I have known. How well I remember the aged poet Sophocles, when in answer to the question, How does love suit with age, Sophocles, --are you still the man you were? Peace, he replied; most gladly have I escaped the thing of which you speak; I feel as if I had escaped from a mad and furious master. His words have often occurred to my mind since, and they seem as good to me now as at the time when he uttered them. For certainly old age has a great sense of calm and freedom; when the passions relax their hold, then, as Sophocles says, we are freed from the grasp not of one mad master only, but of many. The truth is, Socrates, that these regrets, and also the complaints about relations, are to be attributed to the same cause, which is not old age, but men's characters and tempers; for he who is of a calm and happy nature will hardly feel the pressure of age, but to him who is of an opposite disposition youth and age are equally a burden.
I listened in admiration, and wanting to draw him out, that he might go on --Yes, Cephalus, I said: but I rather suspect that people in general are not convinced by you when you speak thus; they think that old age sits lightly upon you, not because of your happy disposition, but because you are rich, and wealth is well known to be a great comforter.
You are right, he replied; they are not convinced: and there is something in what they say; not, however, so much as they imagine. I might answer them as Themistocles answered the Seriphian who was abusing him and saying that he was famous, not for his own merits but because he was an Athenian: 'If you had been a native of my country or I of yours, neither of us would have been famous.' And to those who are not rich and are impatient of old age, the same reply may be made; for to the good poor man old age cannot be a light burden, nor can a bad rich man ever have peace with himself.
May I ask, Cephalus, whether your fortune was for the most part inherited or acquired by you?
Acquired! Socrates; do you want to know how much I acquired? In the art of making money I have been midway between my father and grandfather: for my grandfather, whose name I bear, doubled and trebled the value of his patrimony, that which he inherited being much what I possess now; but my father Lysanias reduced the property below what it is at present: and I shall be satisfied if I leave to these my sons not less but a little more than I received.
That was why I asked you the question, I replied, because I see that you are indifferent about money, which is a characteristic rather of those who have inherited their fortunes than of those who have acquired them; the makers of fortunes have a second love of money as a creation of their own, resembling the affection of authors for their own poems, or of parents for their children, besides that natural love of it for the sake of use and profit which is common to them and all men. And hence they are very bad company, for they can talk about nothing but the praises of wealth. That is true, he said.
Yes, that is very true, but may I ask another question? What do you consider to be the greatest blessing which you have reaped from your wealth?
One, he said, of which I could not expect easily to convince others. For let me tell you, Socrates, that when a man thinks himself to be near death, fears and cares enter into his mind which he never had before; the tales of a world below and the punishment which is exacted there of deeds done here were once a laughing matter to him, but now he is tormented with the thought that they may be true: either from the weakness of age, or because he is now drawing nearer to that other place, he has a clearer view of these things; suspicions and alarms crowd thickly upon him, and he begins to reflect and consider what wrongs he has done to others. And when he finds that the sum of his transgressions is great he will many a time like a child start up in his sleep for fear, and he is filled with dark forebodings. But to him who is conscious of no sin, sweet hope, as Pindar charmingly says, is the kind nurse of his age:
Hope, he says, cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and holiness and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey; --hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man.
How admirable are his words! And the great blessing of riches, I do not say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men. Now to this peace of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes; and therefore I say, that, setting one thing against another, of the many advantages which wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest.
Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it? --to speak the truth and to pay your debts --no more than this? And even to this are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition.
You are quite right, he replied. But then, I said, speaking the truth and paying your debts is not a correct definition of justice.
Quite correct, Socrates, if Simonides is to be believed, said Polemarchus interposing.
I fear, said Cephalus, that I must go now, for I have to look after the sacrifices, and I hand over the argument to Polemarchus and the company.
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Icelander
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Re: Veritas [Re: Ism]
#14894873 - 08/09/11 08:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Of course I will be unconvinced; that is the only reasonable conclusion. If I know that someone who (like a father) is critical or harsh only for his own personal reasons, the rest of the world, (the child), has no reason to take these reasons seriously.
The child has very good reason to take these criticisms seriously, consciously and unconsciously, due to his dependence on the father for his survival and security. This is how these "negative" traits get passed on from parent to child in spite of some cognitive dissonance in the child. And there is also the fact that a child's reasoning faculties are not really fully developed yet and so it as difficult to actively dispute what the father or mother or any significant other is teaching.
Once basic patterns are set they are usually carried on throughout life unless as an adult the cognitive dissonance becomes once again apparent to the adult and then a great deal of work is done over an extended period of time to alter the importance of that pattern in daily life. However the pattern is never fully erased and can become operational at times of great stress or anxiety or even when one is being lazy.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (08/09/11 09:16 AM)
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