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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey
    #14766287 - 07/14/11 03:55 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It is the almost paradoxical nature of a journey - that the end of a journey is always the start of another. Add the two together and you realise its just one big journey in the end.
Each individual is bound by their lifetime. Their journey starts in the womb and ends on the ground.
The human endeavor is different. In fact the whole endeavor of life is different. It keeps changing, on and on. The lives of each individuals interact and overlap. For as long as life exists, it is on a journey. There are many sub-plots. The life of each individual is a sub plot. A subplot made of sub plots.

Human endeavor is similar to this. We are always learning more, but the journey of discovery will never be over. Each realisation brings with it more questions. Each explanation needs explaining. We can always ask about what comes after the last moment, or before the first. As we learn more, we find new ways of interacting with the physical world, and bending it to our will.

Does it matter that there are things unexplained? Is it threatening to think that something strange might exist beyond the scope of modern physics?

A lot of people demand evidence in order to think that something exists. This would make sense if everything was detectable using the human aparatus. But is everything detectable? Or are our human powers of perception and reason limited by the perceptual machinery of the brain?

Given the current incompleteness of physics and the past incompleteness of physics, we can reasonably infer the future incompleteness of physics.

So why physicalism?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14767732 - 07/14/11 12:42 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It is what it is, bro.    :levitate:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14767819 - 07/14/11 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What is physicalism?  I've never heard that word before.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14767898 - 07/14/11 01:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

What does the "why physicalism" question have to do with the rest of your post?  That science exists as a useful method neccesarily infers that not all things are known, yet no argument has been presented that there is any reason to doubt physicalism at all.  Given this, I don't see the relevance of your question- its a non sequitar.

Diecommie:  phyicalism is basically materialism as far as I can tell.  Why the two terms exist is not clear to me, but nobody uses the latter except philosophy people.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: johnm214]
    #14824708 - 07/25/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

the term materialism came out of favour because 'matter' traditionally meant some solid stuff with definate spatial boundaries.

Physicalism is different from Naturalism also. Naturalism states that all real events have a scientific description. Physicalism states that all real events have a description that can potentially be written in the terms of basic Physics.

Given that we could never have evidence of something non-physical directly (direct evidence of something would require a physical phenomenon, for only physical phenomenon affect our known sensory or measurement aparatus) I wonder why the lack of evidence for non-physical makes the physicalist claim any stronger? Since we should not expect there to be solid evidence of non-physical even if there was a non-physical, lack of evidence is not reason to deny the non-physical.

Rather, one ought to look at the completeness of a physical story. If it is incomplete, then there necessarily is something non-physical or 'superphysical' accounting for the difference between reality and the physical description.

So the significant of this thread is that, physicalism only makes sense if we have a complete physical description of the universe.

Since we dont, never have, and likely will not have a complete physical description, why would physicalism be an appropriate stance to take?

The incompleteness of physics is the strongest proof of supernaturalism that could exist.


NOW STOP before you think this opens the door to hocus pocus, gods, spirits, supernatural powers etc. No positive claim can be made about any specific supernatural theory.

But the fact that there is something beyond our understanding should be significant. We can only find out more if we accept this.

Eg. we can only find out more about the mind and quantum mechanics if we accept that something spooky MIGHT be occuring.

But current mentality seems to want to give a description of the world purely involving mindless numbers. Mindless numbers, however, have shown to be insufficient at present and at all times in the past. NEcessary, but insufficient.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14824794 - 07/25/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But current mentality seems to want to give a description of the world purely involving mindless numbers. Mindless numbers, however, have shown to be insufficient at present and at all times in the past. NEcessary, but insufficient.




Mindless numbers?  Sounds like you are just trying to be ornery here.

You say they are not sufficient, not sufficient for what?

I hope you realize that math is more than just numbers.  Its a wilderness of structure and relationships that can map to our observations in ways that the mathematically illiterate can't even fathom.  I think its silly that you dismiss it so causally as 'insufficient' (while conveniently not describing what you expect to get out of it).  I also hope you realize that physics and physical science is more than just math.

I dont really agree with anything you say.  :lol:  Like the fact that physics is incomplete, who cares?  That's not relevant or disputed.  It sure doesnt justify all the conclusions you are drawing from it.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14825676 - 07/26/11 01:19 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rather, one ought to look at the completeness of a physical story. If it is incomplete, then there necessarily is something non-physical or 'superphysical' accounting for the difference between reality and the physical description.




Why?

Does the fact that we don't know everything about mathmatics mean there's more than ten digits?  Obviously not, as their are only ten by definition in the normal system we use, yet mathmatics is obviously incomplete: research is being done on all sorts of mathmatical topics.

Quote:



So the significant of this thread is that, physicalism only makes sense if we have a complete physical description of the universe.

Since we dont, never have, and likely will not have a complete physical description, why would physicalism be an appropriate stance to take?

The incompleteness of physics is the strongest proof of supernaturalism that could exist.




How do you justify thse claims?  You don't explain.

Why do we need a complete description for 'physicalism' to 'make sense'? 

How does the incompletness of  physics have anything to do with supernaturalism?

Quote:

Eg. we can only find out more about the mind and quantum mechanics if we accept that something spooky MIGHT be occuring.




If by this you mean supernatural, why?  Beyond the definition of supernatural seeming to exclude what's determined through the physical sciences, there's no apparent explanation for this claim.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: johnm214]
    #14856090 - 08/01/11 11:53 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If you dont think something is possible, you would not investigate it through science.


The argument is simple: if physics is not complete, then there is room for all kinds of forces that we cannot fathom. These things are all supernatural because they arent explained by the natural laws.

Since there are things that arent explained by the natural laws, it follows that physicalism is not true.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14856140 - 08/01/11 12:06 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Just because physics is not complete doesn't mean there will be more forces.  The opposite happens - having lots of forces is a sign that the science is not complete.  As physics progresses we get less forces, not more.

Nobody ever claimed physics was complete....  So Im not sure what you are espousing here.


Your definition, "Physicalism states that all real events have a description that can potentially be written in the terms of basic Physics. " does not mean that incomplete physics precludes physicalism.  Though the physics is incomplete, real events can potentially be written in the terms of basic physics.  The best evidence for this sort of absolute reductionism is the historical progress of reductionism.  Otherwise, the vast majority of scientists have no problem studying phenomenon that cannot be written in terms of basic physics.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: DieCommie]
    #14856266 - 08/01/11 12:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

DieCommie, are you saying that 'the best physics' is some future physics that we have not found yet?

If physics is not complete then there are aspects of the world that cannot be written in the terms of physics. That is basic.

Therefor physicalism is not true - since the physical details are an insufficient description of the objective world, there are aspects of the world that require some sort of superphysical basis.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14856279 - 08/01/11 12:44 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Not per your definition of physicalism...  Your definition states that a description can potentially be written in terms of basic physics, not that it currently can be written in terms of basic physics.


But yes, there are many aspects of the world (and universe) that cannot be written in terms of basic physics.  That is why we have other sciences as well, like chemistry, biology and psychology.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: DieCommie]
    #14858983 - 08/01/11 10:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes potentially, as in,

1. scientist discovers newton's laws

2. many things are potentially describable with these laws before scientist goes about describing everything that way.

IF all things could be described with these laws, potentially, then the world would be physicalist.

but.

3. scientist discovers that newton's laws are insufficient to describe large scale phenomenon, and so scientist creates a new set of laws.

HERE, the physical picture changes. The new physics can describe more phenomenon. Can all phenomenon be described this way? Well the scientist might try to see if it can.

but

4. scientist discovers that our best and newest theory (not that new anymore) is quantum mechanics and does not totally describe the physical world.


IF a new physical model in the future was discovered, it might potentially be used to describe everything in the world. But this physical model has not been found, and therefor we have nothing to say about it. We don't know that it will exist, and when it does exist, we dont know whether it will describe everything. Because of these factors and other factors, it is incoherent to talk about future physics as being 'physics'. All we know is that it will play the role of a physical model. It could be vastly different to contemporary physics though.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14859149 - 08/01/11 11:20 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It could be vastly different to contemporary physics though.




But it would have to reduce to contemporary physics in the right regime.  Otherwise, its not a sufficient model.


Besides that, I dont think anything you are saying which is controversial or disputed.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: DieCommie]
    #14859913 - 08/02/11 03:09 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

It is controversial because physicalism is so popular and many pop science writers claim that 'everything about the mind is just caused by atoms moving in your brain'.

I do not feel that I need to back this up - it is a commonly spoused idea in our contemporary western society.

But the physical model is not complete, so I wonder where people get the idea that physicalism is true.

If they are imagining some future science capable of describing and explaining everything in the physical world, then they are off in lala land, along with their opponents - the mystics and religious folk who spouse metaphysical claims such as dualism, idealism, panspsychism, or angels demons gods and ghosts.

The only scientific viewpoint is to say that everything physical is physical, and all we know about scientifically is the physical stuff.

It is not scientific to say that we know about everything scientifically.

It is not scientific to say that we will know about everything scientifically.

It is only scientific to demonstrate certain particular truths and regularities about the universe.

Physicalism goes beyond this. Physicalism, as an ontological claim (also known as philosophical naturalism), has statements about things that we do not know about scientifically, such as consciousness, or quantum wave collapse.

Physicalism claims that the regularities that we have demonstrated can be used to account for all the states and changes in the universe. However, they clearly do not.

So, once again: why physicalism?


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14861132 - 08/02/11 11:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So, once again: why physicalism?




I dont know.  Ive honestly never meet anybody who thinks like that.  :shrug:

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: DieCommie]
    #14870710 - 08/04/11 04:22 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Well I am not sure how many people trully believe it - this doesnt stop it being a prominent theory in the academic world

also plenty of people treat it as true. They act like there are no mysterious forces at work in the universe.

The problem becomes obvious - opening the door to the supernatural makes people come up with all kinds of theories about god and consciousness. But all that is extra unsupported fluff. IT is just as banal as closing the door.

Still, being open to supernatural forces should also make us open to listening to the wacky theories people come up with - only through understanding the possibilities can we start to think about ways of falsifying them.

I dont think it is scientific to say that creationism is false. I think it is better to say that a creation story depicting a massive event occuring 6,000 years ago contradicts with almost all data obtained from the universe. A creation story that depicts a process of gradual change over billions of years, is, however, in contradiction with no evidence. I think these sorts of distinctions are the ones that people should be discussing, rather than going over the pathetic arguments between science and religion


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14870843 - 08/04/11 05:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Like diecommie said, I don't recognize these attitudes you claim to be common.  Do you have any evidence that they exist to any signifigant extent in the scientific field?

I've never heard any scientific discourse claiming creation didn't happen, for example, yet you cite this is as one your examples.  To the contrary, scientific investigations tend to ignore examples like these percisely because they're unfalsifiable and obviously cannot be disproved.


I tend to suspect these attitudes you refer to don't actually exist in science to any relevant degree.

Quote:

They act like there are no mysterious forces at work in the universe.




I just can't imagine how you could claim this is true.  It seems the motivation to investigate many phenomena, historically and today, is percisely because they are mysterious.  Hell, quantum physics is a topic of mainstream interest percisely because it is so mysterious.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: johnm214]
    #14870908 - 08/04/11 06:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

hmmm well it is good to hear that you think these opinions are not common.

determinism, anyone? people still argue that 'we have no free will' because of determinism. (unless they are compatibalists but most compatibalists tend to try to redeem determinism)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14872020 - 08/04/11 12:16 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
determinism, anyone? people still argue that 'we have no free will' because of determinism.





What people?  Strict determinism was thrown out by physics nearly a hundred years ago.



I think you have a very odd, and false, view of what science is and how scientists think.  The mystics are wrong, scientists are the most open minded people on the planet.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Human Endeavor is an Endless Journey [Re: DieCommie]
    #14872492 - 08/04/11 01:53 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yes but some will say that the 'indeterminism' we have with quantum physics is not compatible with free will because it is just 'random'


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