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 nubious
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 God and his 'master plan' 
#1476071 - 04/20/03 09:25 AM (21 years, 2 days ago) |
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I'll make this quick, cause I have to leave for work in 3 minutes. This is for people who think god has a master plan - (for those of you who believe in god) - if we create a microbacteria that sits in a petre dish and let it evolve for a long time with our careful occassional watch, granted we're 'all seeing' as we can see everything in the petre dish, and 'all knowing' as we know what the bacteria is composed of and know what it's evolving to, but as for a 'master plan' ?? We don't neccassarrily have that - we're "wingin'" it, so to speak - we're observing to see what happens - granted if this isn't the first petre dish with this type of bacteria we've watched under equal conditions, then fine - we know what's going to happen - and I mean EQUAL conditions... so then admitting god has a master plan is like admitting there is a parallel universe, which isn't mentioned in the bible...
ponder THAT
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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.
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pattern
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 Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1476153 - 04/20/03 10:05 AM (21 years, 2 days ago) |
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Maybe there is a 'master push', not a plan, but a direction. Like if you made that petri dish you would probably kill it if it evolved into a monster, but you would let it live if it turned into a bunny. There is no plan but there seems to be a preferred outcome.
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man = monkey + mushroom
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Seuss
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1476267 - 04/20/03 10:49 AM (21 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
so then admitting god has a master plan is like admitting there is a parallel universe, which isn't mentioned in the bible...
Only because you consider God to be dualistic in nature.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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nubious
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: pattern]
#1476277 - 04/20/03 10:51 AM (21 years, 2 days ago) |
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hmm.. interesting possibility.. That's definately possible, but what are you implying? That we are being destroyed by forces unknown to us? Is it too late for human kind? Will our 'creator' give up hope? I doubt it.. if something has the power to create humankind, I also feel they have the power to keep it at bay.. We wouldn't so much kill the monster more than we're quarantine it and learn why it does what it does... Take a look at Zoo's for example..
Master Push? Well that would have to be time - the push behind all force - that special fuel that makes EVERYthing go... I wouldn't consider that god - in this sense I was refering to god as tho described in most religon's - the creator - the all seeing end all be all of everything.....
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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.
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rosewoodpete
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1476329 - 04/20/03 11:17 AM (21 years, 2 days ago) |
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your concept of god is based on human perceptions of our own reality around us. assuming god is ominpotent, and all knowing, then his perception of a "plan" would be unfathomable to us. why even try?
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johnnyfive
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: rosewoodpete]
#1476369 - 04/20/03 11:39 AM (21 years, 2 days ago) |
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There's a master offer, of course the "plan" can always change
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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!
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nubious
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: rosewoodpete]
#1476715 - 04/20/03 03:13 PM (21 years, 2 days ago) |
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How can one be so sure that god is 'all knowing' when the follow two statements are true about the previous:
A) "God is all knowing" implies humans are not, in which case an absolute 100% truthful statement, a.k.a. "God is all knowing" is still 100% THEORY ..
B) 'Assuming god is omnipotent' -- Who assumed omnipotency was a quality of god? A follower of a book written over 2000 years ago... What factual information was given to back up this statement? How many were in agreeance to this claim? In 1938 there was a radio play broadcasted nationwide to the United States that scared a large number of the population into believing the country was being invaded my Martians - You can get the whole story here... - This was ONE person's adaptation of a book. Imagine 12 people or however many apostles there were going around spreading tales of 'omnipotent' yadda yadda ... All it takes is a small crow - 75% of the population are lemmings - 25% free thinkers (completely made up stats) - but you get the idea....
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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.
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valour
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1476804 - 04/20/03 03:49 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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I think the key here is defining what you mean by God, then.
Most definitions that people would operate with assume omnipotence, which brings up logical problems of course (not that an omnipotent deity would mind, of course, but just that our minds have...um...difficulty wrapping around it).
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"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."
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rosewoodpete
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1477158 - 04/20/03 06:28 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
How can one be so sure that god is 'all knowing' when the follow two statements are true about the previous:
A) "God is all knowing" implies humans are not, in which case an absolute 100% truthful statement, a.k.a. "God is all knowing" is still 100% THEORY ..
The law of gravity is also just a theory, called a law because it is commonly accepted as being true. yet i can't see gravity. The very acknowledgement of the possibility of their being a god, also acknowledges that this god figure would be beyond human understanding.
Quote:
B) 'Assuming god is omnipotent' -- Who assumed omnipotency was a quality of god? A follower of a book written over 2000 years ago... What factual information was given to back up this statement? How many were in agreeance to this claim? Imagine 12 people or however many apostles there were going around spreading tales of 'omnipotent' yadda yadda ... All it takes is a small crow - 75% of the population are lemmings - 25% free thinkers (completely made up stats) - but you get the idea....
No offense to you, but you obviously haven't the slightest clue about the valid historical background of the bible. You speak of twelve people? well, i assume you speak of the apostles. The apostles who are contributed with writing the godpels all split ways after the resurrection and the gospels originated out of the communitys that they migrated to. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all were written in different areas, but they share remarkable similarities rendering them to the fact that the authors must have witnessed similar events.
And....the vast majority that deals with god is contained within the old testament. the old testament or the tanakh(sp?) and pentaduch were written lots longer than 2000 years ago. they are thought to have begun being recorded during the babylonian captivity.
Plus, you obviously are attacking Christianity, yet every major religion (Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity) acknowledges a god-like figure who is all powerful and all knowing. so basically, your wronng. take some classes in relgion and then come back.
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rosewoodpete
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1477161 - 04/20/03 06:29 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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plus, i don't get your original statement. ??? I don't understand what point you are driving...???
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DrubuShrume
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How can one be so sure that god is 'all knowing' when the follow two statements are true about the previous:
A) "God is all knowing" implies humans are not, in which case an absolute 100% truthful statement, a.k.a. "God is all knowing" is still 100% THEORY ..
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The law of gravity is also just a theory, called a law because it is commonly accepted as being true. yet i can't see gravity. The very acknowledgement of the possibility of their being a god, also acknowledges that this god figure would be beyond human understanding.
A Law of physics is not a theory. As well, the meanings related to Gravity and God exist on two different levels of relation. God has a lot more "information pertaining" to than Gravity as well
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AH HA....
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nubious
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: DrubuShrume]
#1477775 - 04/20/03 10:18 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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Fair enuff - 'God' has more information pertaining to it then gravity, and you're right, I don't know a whole lot of the bible - although I did go to catholic school and I feel this is one of the primary reasons I didn't end up finishing - imagine being forced to sit through a 55 minute class EVERY day being told WHAT to belive, WHAT is true, what ISN'T true, and which is the RIGHT way to view things... Not allowed to question, not allowed to disagree - you either agree or you go to the principals office.. how would YOU view religon after going to Public school until grade 4, not hearing the word religon except on TV, then being forced unto the catholic school system against your will....
I'm sorry I can't throw out a mass of facts like some of you can, but IMO religon is that one true fault of man kind. More people are killed by religious wars than alchohol induced accidents (drinking and driving) around the world every year, yet we continue to allow mass difference in a opinion on a subject that can be so touchy for some, it can cause them to kill. Everyone's view of their religon is "right", and albiet some are tollerant of other religions, some are not .. How can you just sit back and take it while mass groups of people silently believe that the rest of the world has a 'wrong' view of the big guy upstairs?
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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.
Edited by nubious (04/20/03 10:19 PM)
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pattern
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1479170 - 04/21/03 01:55 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
hmm.. interesting possibility.. That's definately possible, but what are you implying? That we are being destroyed by forces unknown to us? Is it too late for human kind? Will our 'creator' give up hope?
Well let me start by saying my definition of God isn't traditional, I don't believe in God, but I believe that the word God means something important. I take it to mean reality, all that which is greater than the individual, including the individual. God = the sum of everything and all processes. All the things that religions have said, historically and presently, are all aspects to God.
Therefore I think that we (me and you and all humans) are part of God, we set our own destiny, yet no one person has control. As a whole God has come to the decision that life is better than death, so I say we are pushing ourselves to continue to be alive, to improve our lives. As opposed to pushing ourselves to disaster. Until we are all dead I can only come to that conclusion. There is no point, no plan, only the realization that life is worth living.
In my pseudo-materialistic view of the universe, we are all beings evolved from combinations of matter and energy, existing in space and time. And we are alive. So these things we are made of, I argue they are alive too, but not conscious. On a high dose of mushrooms/acid sometimes I feel like I am staring into the vast expanse of time, and if God is reality, and if everything is made of time, then time is the metaphorical blood of reality. Our blood is a vital living part of our conscious whole.
I just watched Ghosts of the Abyss at the Imax, it was great. Near the end one of the Titanic experts comments "Its incredible how time changes things", and how bacteria and organisms are slowly breaking down the sunken ship, dissolving it back into the ocean. People just talk about time as if it were doing something, acting on space. Could there be some point to what time is doing?
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man = monkey + mushroom
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Anonymous
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1479179 - 04/21/03 02:02 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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one very fatal, but basic flaw in that experiment- you didn't create the bacteria, or ANYTHING there for that matter- they were there to begin with
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pattern
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: ]
#1479198 - 04/21/03 02:11 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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Yes but he is still playing God in the experiment. On the other hand you can't prove that God made this universe from nothing, maybe there was something already there. I mean how can anyone know what existed "before" the universe?
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man = monkey + mushroom
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Anonymous
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: pattern]
#1479292 - 04/21/03 02:47 PM (21 years, 1 day ago) |
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exactly- you can prove that the person didnt create those things, but can't prove that something/someone didn't- playing God is hardly any relevant model of God
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valour
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: nubious]
#1484708 - 04/22/03 11:26 PM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm not sure where the position that acceptance of (a) religion means throwing out 'facts'. If you read your description of Catholic school (don't get me wrong, it does sound bad) and apply it to public schools: being forced to sit and listen to what you're supposed to believe (consider revisionist histories, political propaganda pushed by government schools, etc.) --
REMEMBER: ~People~ will choose their reasons to kill one another. Religion is just a convenient excuse because it gives a macro to replace thinking. It's that people are stupid, time, place or reason notwithstanding. Governments kill more than religion, and are doing their best to make up for lost time apart from when religion and government were one and the same (thanks Uncle Stalin!)
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"Remember, son,
I didn't sell out-
I bought in."
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 Evolving
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: valour]
#1485737 - 04/23/03 10:31 AM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well said.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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nubious
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Re: God and his 'master plan' [Re: Evolving]
#1486313 - 04/23/03 01:42 PM (20 years, 11 months ago) |
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Doesn't it just make you wanna stab somebody?
Here's an experiment for all you out there - lets try to come up with a solution to government - what would work? what wouldn't? Let's attempt to brainstorm a new age system that can replace people like Mr. Bush and see to it that the world is a better place to live in.. It's BOUND to happen .. Society, like life, evolves to be something better then whats past - what do you think the next 100, 500, or 1000 years can bring to humanity?
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No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.
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