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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14773261 - 07/15/11 04:41 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Searle argues against this idea, I'm not making this up.




Sure, I don't doubt that.  I simply don't fully understand the concepts and ideas like "Something where thoughts are", probably because I haven't read Searle or studied within this field.

If you want to define thoughts as necessarily having to be made aware to us, then clearly you have defined out the realm of a subconscious.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: DieCommie]
    #14773340 - 07/15/11 04:58 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

as for being aware of the thoughts in your head.

you are those thoughts,

and a reflection or consideration upon those thoughts is also a thought (same material)

you are that reflection too.

as such the practice of awareness is the good habit of reflecting what is happening.
A benefit of it is that it provides  an easy basis to steer more towards or more away from areas that are not beneficial.

being here and now, is a habit worth developing.
still there is no separation between the mind and the self and the mental contents.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: DieCommie]
    #14773353 - 07/15/11 05:01 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

"If you want to define thoughts as necessarily having to be made aware to us, then clearly you have defined out the realm of a subconscious. "

Well what is a thought if we are not aware of it?


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14773571 - 07/15/11 05:40 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
1. All of your indirect evidence for unconscious thoughts is just evidence that our brain stores information in our biological architecture.

I would never disagree. I argue that it does but more importantly that access to this storage of information is at times impossible and this is what I deem to be a subconscious thought.

2. There is no function that unobserved thoughts could perform that our biological architecture could not perform on its own without making them.

You can't possibly be naive enough to believe that you are concious of all thoughts to do with our biological processes. Do you have to be aware of 'take breath in and breath out' in order to perform the absorption of oxygen??? Whether or not a thought is unobservable, does not alter its ability to influence our experience.





--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14773584 - 07/15/11 05:44 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
The idea of a "subconscious mind" or "subconscious thought" implies that there are thoughts we have that we are not aware of. Searle argues against this idea, I'm not making this up.




Where do dreams arise, of which we have had no concious control over??

When I reflect on the dream I had last night of being inside of a tornado and running from the law, where did that dream arise...all these actions I've performed in my dream I can perform in a lucid dream with conscious control of thought. Clearly, if conscious control of thought creates dream reality and dreams can be created in spite of our ability to consciously think, it suggest that there are thoughts being thought of somewhere within our mind which we are not conscious of.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14773591 - 07/15/11 05:46 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

"You can't possibly be naive enough to believe that you are concious of all thoughts to do with our biological processes."

What is a thought if we are not conscious of it?


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14773617 - 07/15/11 05:52 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

"Where do dreams arise, of which we have had no concious control over??"

Arise? I don't believe that there is a causal source of them any more than I think there is a causal source for everything. Dreams happen yes, and our biology seems to be what allows for that to happen, but as far as where they arise... That is a different matter that I have no idea about.

"it suggest that there are thoughts being thought of somewhere within our mind which we are not conscious of. "

If you replace the word thoughts with conditioning and mind with brain in that sentence, I can make sense of it. But I don't know what you mean by mind or thoughts if you are saying we have them that we are't aware of.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14774830 - 07/15/11 10:43 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"You can't possibly be naive enough to believe that you are concious of all thoughts to do with our biological processes."

What is a thought if we are not conscious of it?





If we cannot observe a thought; it makes them useless. However, in understanding emotions which arise from subconcious thoughts it is important to make a distinction between our own concious thought and that of the subconcious or pre-conditioned thoughts.

I've said this so many times though. I don't feel like arguing about it anymore, its a waste of time.

Yes, subconcious thoughts are conditioned through experience...


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14774838 - 07/15/11 10:45 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

"Yes, subconcious thoughts are conditioned through experience... "

We can agree if this means the same as:

"Yes, the connections in the brain are conditioned through experience... "


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OfflineXUL
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14774849 - 07/15/11 10:47 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
I contest that all that is needed to understand thought patterns are to understand conscious thoughts in the series that they occur, and that a subconscious to explain the "source" of thoughts or a place where motivations are kept is unnecessary and imaginary.

Disagree?

How do you know a subconscious exists? I see no need to think one does. Why would you?





If the government wanted to pay you 5000 dollars to strap you down and train your subconscious mind that killing your loved ones was what you needed to do. Would you let them try just to prove your point? Assuming that you have the time in your life to do it.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: XUL]
    #14774879 - 07/15/11 10:54 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

"If the government wanted to pay you 5000 dollars to strap you down and train your subconscious mind that killing your loved ones was what you needed to do. Would you let them try just to prove your point? Assuming that you have the time in your life to do it. "

First off, money would be irrelevant.

Secondly, if they were to condition my brain to react in such a way that I would have the urge to kill, that would not prove a subconscious exists, only that it is possible to teach a person to be a killer.

Do you think you could teach someone to want to kill without knowing they would want to kill? Like clockwork orange in reverse? Pretty funny idea. Might be possible, but it still wouldn't prove a subconscious, still just that the brain can be conditioned to respond to stimuli very quickly and without consideration.


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Offlinenaturesrevolt
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14774992 - 07/15/11 11:18 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

This conversation has become mundane back and forth, everyone tries to convince xFrockx of a sub-conscious and xFrockx holds steadfast to any scrap of reasoning xFrockx can muster. Why not close the thread and prove the point that no one can convince xFrockx to think differently when xFrockx wasn't really looking to be proven wrong; just for someone to say xFrockx is right; in the first place.

And to xFrockx, no one else here arguing agrees with you, let it rest as this.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: naturesrevolt]
    #14775035 - 07/15/11 11:25 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, so I'm the one trying to push a point here? What we actually have is a lot of people arguing for antiquated folk psychology, and I'm not one of them. Most of the literature supporting the notion of a subconscious is from the 1970's or earlier. Neuroscience has largely replaced this very fuzzy notion of the roots of our cognition.

No one agrees with me and we leave it at that? Philosophy as mob-rule, I like it. Very realistic.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14775038 - 07/15/11 11:26 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Yes, subconcious thoughts are conditioned through experience... "

We can agree if this means the same as:

"Yes, the connections in the brain are conditioned through experience... "




It does mean the same thing; but there are varying types of connections that are made, dependent on the time that they are made. An adult cannot make the same connections as a child for example. A lucid dream is vasly different from one that is reflective. Therefore, we can't just describe the psychology of the brain as limited to the connections(thoughts) in the brain are conditioned through experience...


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14775049 - 07/15/11 11:27 PM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"If the government wanted to pay you 5000 dollars to strap you down and train your

subconscious mind that killing your loved ones was what you needed to do. Would you let them try just to prove your point? Assuming that you have the time in your life to do it. "

First off, money would be irrelevant.

Secondly, if they were to condition my brain to react in such a way that I would have the urge to kill, that would not prove a subconscious exists, only that it is possible to teach a person to be a killer.

Do you think you could teach someone to want to kill without knowing they would want to kill? Like clockwork orange in reverse? Pretty funny idea. Might be possible, but it still wouldn't prove a subconscious, still just that the brain can be conditioned to respond to stimuli very quickly and without consideration.




:thumbup:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14775215 - 07/16/11 12:05 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"If you want to define thoughts as necessarily having to be made aware to us, then clearly you have defined out the realm of a subconscious. "

Well what is a thought if we are not aware of it?




A subconscious thought of course.  :tongue:


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Offlineblingbling
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14775416 - 07/16/11 12:47 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"What matters is that it is there, it is an observable phenomena."

BUT THAT IS EXACTLY THE THING. ACCORDING TO WHAT UNCONSCIOUS THOUGHTS SUPPOSEDLY ARE, THEY ARE NOT OBSERVABLE.





what do you have to say about the video i posted then? you really are clutching at straws here. just accept it, your not in control of all your brains functions!!


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: blingbling]
    #14775570 - 07/16/11 01:30 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

I never said I was. Please read the thread before you beg me to believe something.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: xFrockx]
    #14775571 - 07/16/11 01:30 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
Oh, so I'm the one trying to push a point here? What we actually have is a lot of people arguing for antiquated folk psychology, and I'm not one of them. Most of the literature supporting the notion of a subconscious is from the 1970's or earlier. Neuroscience has largely replaced this very fuzzy notion of the roots of our cognition.

No one agrees with me and we leave it at that? Philosophy as mob-rule, I like it. Very realistic.





I think I know what the problem is; the subconcious to me more resembles the unconscious thoughts. I don't think subconcious and unconcious thoughts.

All my commentary would have been on unconcious thoughts, not 'the subconcious'


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...



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Onlinedeff
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Re: There is no subconscious [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14775604 - 07/16/11 01:39 AM (10 years, 6 months ago)

i've dealt with shadow issues that have lead me to believe there is a lot of subconscious functioning occuring under the surface, much more than the amount of conscious activity. this includes autonomous sub-personality complexes with independent will-power etc. there's a lot of obvious unconscious processing that occurs when people observe their surroundings and judgements arise about the objects/people - this is all an ongoing subconscious calculation and projection process. now are these "thoughts" per se? well that depends if a thought can exist without conscious awareness, but there's certainly subconscious motivating factors constantly at play (unless perhaps if one is enlightened).

i think the mind is much more complex than just a simple linear conscious stream of activity, but that's just my guess based on my experiences. do these sub-personality complexes have their own (likely diminished) levels of awareness? they seem to act that way, but it's of course impossible to know :shrug:

the model of the subconscious is very useful for psychotherapy though, as jungian analysis has shown. so i think the model itself has merit regardless of it's actual accuracy.


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