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OfflineMAIA
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Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world
    #14741273 - 07/09/11 02:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

As Sun Tzu used to say: "Supreme Excellence consist in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting"

After national debt revision from Moody's to "junk", some people performed a client-side URL injection hack. It's a cheap hack I know but it got attention worldwide.



Yesterday, potuguese people got together using social networks and launched a DDoS attack with success. Today I got a service unavailable (503) message in Moody's site several times. And there's more Monday ...

We can discuss about if portuguese debt is either junk or not. It probably is but it should be at the top of the can. Not in the bottom were Moody's placed us. Nevertheless, my question is: Do you agree with this kind of response from the social network realms ? I'm not referring to the first attack. That was one hacker. What about the DDoS attack performed by more than 50000 people ?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14741332 - 07/09/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1 or 50,000, they are vandals.  Common gutter vandals.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14742135 - 07/09/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

We conquered those. We're Visigoths !


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14742329 - 07/09/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Did 50,000 people really participate, or was it just 50,000 computers?

What do you mean, "in the bottom of the can"?  I'm sure Portuguese debt is still rated higher than Ivory Coast debt, or Libyan debt.  :rolleyes:

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14742479 - 07/09/11 07:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Did 50,000 people really participate, or was it just 50,000 computers?





http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=214459695264048

50.0000 people. It's a pretty rudimentary DDoS attack. Most of them are using LOIC or js LOIC. Others are preparing more sophisticated attacks. Nevertheless, if at least half of them use LOIC, not even a server farm could handle it.

It's an "Anon" like attack.

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
What do you mean, "in the bottom of the can"?  I'm sure Portuguese debt is still rated higher than Ivory Coast debt, or Libyan debt.  :rolleyes:




The can, where you put junk. If you're junk were you want to be ? Deep down bellow or up in the can smelling fresh air ?

We're rated higher than Ivory Coast or Libya, but that's not the point. The point is, with this rating no investor will give credit to Portugal. And if it does, they would ask for insane interest rates. All thanks to ... Moody's !


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14742861 - 07/09/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
The point is, with this rating no investor will give credit to Portugal. And if it does, they would ask for insane interest rates. All thanks to ... Moody's !




I don't think Moody's had anything to do with it.  Maybe you should blame the inept government that squandered your money and your neighbors for demanding every increasing entitlements.

Any investor thinking about investing in Portuguese government debt would surely have noticed the state of Portugal's affairs long before Moody's changed their rating of it.

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #14742892 - 07/09/11 09:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

MAIA said:
The point is, with this rating no investor will give credit to Portugal. And if it does, they would ask for insane interest rates. All thanks to ... Moody's !




Maybe you should blame the inept government that squandered your money and your neighbors for demanding every increasing entitlements.





You're absolutely right in this part. Nevertheless, there's no agreement between ratings agencies and the ECB about the reasons of such big downrating. The big deep is the main issue here. The ECB and the portuguese government blame this agencies of superficial and non-objective analysis. To me, they're just trying to suck all they want. This downgrade serves capital insurance companies the most as it did with Greece.

There's an undeclared war between the dollar and the euro going on. The US and their ratings corps are just doing the most they can to keep a strong dollar which it isn't anymore. I've said it before, the shit will hit the fan in the US in a short time. You're making money "out of thin air" and no rating corp seems do know nothing about it. They're loosing credibility rapidly and it's all a matter of time your financial system gets screwed real hard.


--------------------
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Edited by MAIA (07/09/11 09:39 PM)

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14743071 - 07/09/11 10:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
The ECB and the portuguese government blame this agencies of superficial and non-objective analysis. To me, they're just trying to suck all they want. This downgrade serves capital insurance companies the most as it did with Greece.

There's an undeclared war between the dollar and the euro going on. The US and their ratings corps are just doing the most they can to keep a strong dollar which it isn't anymore. I've said it before, the shit will hit the fan in the US in a short time. You're making money "out of thin air" and no rating corp seems do know nothing about it. They're loosing credibility rapidly and it's all a matter of time your financial system gets screwed real hard.



lololo..

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14743291 - 07/09/11 11:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
The US and their ratings corps are just doing the most they can to keep a strong dollar which it isn't anymore.




Moody's doesn't care if the dollar is strong or not.  They make their money by being an objective rating agency.  If they were actually playing that way, everyone would notice, nobody would care what their ratings were, and they'd go out of business shortly thereafter.

Quote:

I've said it before, the shit will hit the fan in the US in a short time.




You mean like it has in Portugal?  Not likely.

Quote:


You're making money "out of thin air"




And the ECB isn't? 

Quote:


and no rating corp seems do know nothing about it.




They seem to know more about it than you do.

Quote:

They're loosing credibility rapidly




Then the problem will fix itself.

Quote:

and it's all a matter of time your financial system gets screwed real hard.




Meanwhile, what are you doing to fix your own country's financial problems?

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14744257 - 07/10/11 07:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
All thanks to ... Moody's !




Sure. Blame Moody's instead of the politicians who got you into the fix you're in, and the fucktards that keep voting them into office.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14744550 - 07/10/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
We conquered those. We're Visigoths !




No you aren't.  Visigoths (and the original Vandals) were tough motherfuckers.  All that is left in much of Europe is a bunch of whiny pussies looking for handouts.
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

MAIA said:
All thanks to ... Moody's !




Sure. Blame Moody's instead of the politicians who got you into the fix you're in, and the fucktards that keep voting them into office.




"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years."

Americans must remain vigilant against this scourge that has mostly ruined several European nations already.


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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14745730 - 07/10/11 02:04 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Let's you and I be the "benevolent" dictators that ease Americas great decline.  Let me be in charge of population control and  border control and religion control. (general pest control :shrug:) You with your brilliant fiscal policies can do the rest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: Icelander]
    #14746387 - 07/10/11 03:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: Icelander]
    #14746569 - 07/10/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Let's you and I be the "benevolent" dictators that ease Americas great decline.  Let me be in charge of population control and  border control and religion control. (general pest control :shrug:) You with your brilliant fiscal policies can do the rest.




Secure the borders and stop paying for assholes to have babies will take care of two.  I don't think anybody can do anything in this country about religion control.


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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14747230 - 07/10/11 06:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If we decide who has the guns we certainly can.  Remember we're dictators.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14749622 - 07/11/11 03:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
There's an undeclared war between the dollar and the euro going on.




Seems completely unlikely. I think it's much more likely that there's a real war on between the U.S. dollar and the Canadian one. :yesnod:

Quote:


The US and their ratings corps are just doing the most they can to keep a strong dollar which it isn't anymore.




Seems completely inconsistent with the fact that they've already pronounced a worse outlook for the U.S. and are going to lower it's rating if the U.S. doesn't resolve some issues regarding the debt and the deficit.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: Icelander]
    #14750466 - 07/11/11 10:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If we decide who has the guns we certainly can.  Remember we're dictators.



I'm a dictator.  You're a henchman, which is a promotion from minion.  Be proud.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14751422 - 07/11/11 01:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

MAIA said:
All thanks to ... Moody's !




Sure. Blame Moody's instead of the politicians who got you into the fix you're in, and the fucktards that keep voting them into office.




The fucktards politicians and rating companies are both present in the problem. Sure, we are to ones to blame from the start. Thing is, Moody's and all other rating companies are fucking us beyond the solution achieved with the troika (ECB,EU,IMF). Reason: People and corporations linked to this rating companies are making a lot of money with this situation.

Please, no more of this "you're the only one to blame" explanation. That's obviously a one sided explanation. It does not explain why after an agreement with all investors, rating companies keep pushing us down.


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14751503 - 07/11/11 01:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I never said anyone was solely to blame. I blamed the politicians and the people who vote for them.

I don't blame Moody's. They are doing what rating organizations do. They rate. They rate based upon past, present and future prospects/actions.

Just because other parties come to an agreement doesn't mean the rating companies have to agree that it's a good plan. What the fuck does Moody's care about who agreed to what?

If they keep dropping the rating, it's because (among other reasons) they feel the plan sucks, and history has shown that the politicians will keep spending every dollar. Not just every dollar they get, but also every dollar they MIGHT get and every dollar they WISH to get.

Moody's did what they should.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14751517 - 07/11/11 01:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

MAIA said:
All thanks to ... Moody's !




Sure. Blame Moody's instead of the politicians who got you into the fix you're in, and the fucktards that keep voting them into office.




The fucktards politicians and rating companies are both present in the problem. Sure, we are to ones to blame from the start. Thing is, Moody's and all other rating companies are fucking us beyond the solution achieved with the troika (ECB,EU,IMF). Reason: People and corporations linked to this rating companies are making a lot of money with this situation.

Please, no more of this "you're the only one to blame" explanation. That's obviously a one sided explanation. It does not explain why after an agreement with all investors, rating companies keep pushing us down.



Moody's has an absolute obligation to provide, to the best of their ability, an accurate assessment of Portugal's financial condition.  They say it is junk.  You probably agree.  Anybody is free to ignore it.  They don't set the rates.  They just advise.  The market sets the rates.  Too many years of bums being bums are come back to bite a whole lot of asses.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: zappaisgod]
    #14751597 - 07/11/11 02:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

When I say I probably agree, I'm referring to their assessment in regards to lowering the rate. What I don't agree, is how low that assessment has reached in terms of rating level.

You guys paint a fucking rainbow above these rating companies, when in fact they're taking advantage of the situation. They do know the portuguese government will start a phase of privatizations. What's better than lowering the selling price of state institutions and companies this way ? Then they become very cheap. That's pure market manipulation but it's great if you want to "buy" a country.

What bothers me the most is how they come clean, in the eyes of many, after all this financial games. Hey ! Business as usual isn't it ?


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Invisiblememes
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14751810 - 07/11/11 02:49 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

MAIA, they are answering your concerns perfectly.  That's objective,  dont you see it?  Portugal fucked themselves.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14751820 - 07/11/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
When I say I probably agree, I'm referring to their assessment in regards to lowering the rate. What I don't agree, is how low that assessment has reached in terms of rating level.

You guys paint a fucking rainbow above these rating companies, when in fact they're taking advantage of the situation. They do know the portuguese government will start a phase of privatizations. What's better than lowering the selling price of state institutions and companies this way ? Then they become very cheap. That's pure market manipulation but it's great if you want to "buy" a country.

What bothers me the most is how they come clean, in the eyes of many, after all this financial games. Hey ! Business as usual isn't it ?



So are you saying that Moody's is going to buy all the assets the gov't is going to put up for sale?  Cuz that seems silly.

Which means you must be implying that Moody's is in cahoots with investors from abroad, whereby they are purposefully giving Portugal a shitty outlook to force the gov't into the firesale of assets.





..... shouldn't this be in the conspiracy forum?

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14751822 - 07/11/11 02:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
When I say I probably agree, I'm referring to their assessment in regards to lowering the rate. What I don't agree, is how low that assessment has reached in terms of rating level.

You guys paint a fucking rainbow above these rating companies, when in fact they're taking advantage of the situation. They do know the portuguese government will start a phase of privatizations. What's better than lowering the selling price of state institutions and companies this way ? Then they become very cheap. That's pure market manipulation but it's great if you want to "buy" a country.

What bothers me the most is how they come clean, in the eyes of many, after all this financial games. Hey ! Business as usual isn't it ?




I don't see how they could possibly know what Portugal is going to do until it does it.  If they get their shit in order their rating will improve.  And the rating companies got lambasted for giving a too rosy picture in the past.  Have they gone too far the other way?  Maybe, but I doubt it.


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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14752099 - 07/11/11 03:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
Nevertheless, my question is: Do you agree with this kind of response from the social network realms ? I'm not referring to the first attack. That was one hacker. What about the DDoS attack performed by more than 50000 people ?




No. I do not agree with this kind of attack. It accomplishes nothing, while inconveniencing many.


It's akin to "I'm taking my ball and going home!"


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14752142 - 07/11/11 03:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
I've said it before, the shit will hit the fan in the US in a short time.





The Euro will shit the bed long before the Dollar does.

You have multiple countries. All with different needs, desires, work ethics, inflation rates, laws, strategic interests. It may not happen when the first country leaves, or is kicked out, but it will happen. Thanks the Greeks, as they appear to be the first that will go.

Compare that to the U.S., where we have been one country since the beginning (or near enough).


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14752620 - 07/11/11 05:39 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

MAIA said:
I've said it before, the shit will hit the fan in the US in a short time.





The Euro will shit the bed long before the Dollar does.

You have multiple countries. All with different needs, desires, work ethics, inflation rates, laws, strategic interests. It may not happen when the first country leaves, or is kicked out, but it will happen. Thanks the Greeks, as they appear to be the first that will go.

Compare that to the U.S., where we have been one country since the beginning (or near enough).




You are true regarding european cohesion. It's most certainly a political joke and it shows ...

As for some numbers: Per capita debt in the US is 146.000 USD. Per capita debt in Portugal is 26.000 USD. Yet your rating companies don't review you rating but review ours which is a joke in comparison. The chinese rating company Dagong goes even further and accuse the US of defaulting because it's getting really hard to achieve the payment of such huge debt. If you think the chinese has no cards to play in this issue, then remember which country has bought the most part of your debt.


--------------------
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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14752747 - 07/11/11 06:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
As for some numbers: Per capita debt in the US is 146.000 USD. Per capita debt in Portugal is 26.000 USD.




Per capita debt is only a small part in the debt solvency equation.  The most important consideration is the likely ability to repay the debt, not the magnitude of the debt itself.

Quote:

Yet your rating companies don't review you rating




They do.

Quote:


The chinese rating company Dagong goes even further and accuse the US of defaulting because it's getting really hard to achieve the payment of such huge debt.




That's the beauty of having multiple rating companies.  If you disagree with Moody's you are free to take more credence in some other company's ratings. 

Quote:

If you think the chinese has no cards to play in this issue, then remember which country has bought the most part of your debt.




This is irrelevant.

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14755304 - 07/12/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
As for some numbers: Per capita debt in the US is 146.000 USD. Per capita debt in Portugal is 26.000 USD. Yet your rating companies don't review you rating but review ours which is a joke in comparison.




Like ChangTzu said, its about the ABILTY TO REPAY that is the issue w/ debt issuance and ratings agencies.  The US is the reserve currency of the world.  Faith in the US Dollar is STRONG.  It may not be that way for very much longer (given our political & debt mess), but as of right now, thats JUST THE WAY IT IS.





Now, back to the "ability to repay".  I wasn't sure how Portugal's GDP had been doing over the past decade, but I was sure it was poor relative to the US's (which is why our ability to repay is less of an issue).  I typed "Portugal GDP Growth" into google and sure enough, i didnt even need to click a link to see the big fat -2.9% growth for 2009.

The US can finance ever-increasing debt levels becuase oure GDP keeps growing, and its so BIG.  Sure, its not sustainable the way we're doing it (don't remind me, i'm well aware).  However, w/ a -2.9% GDP growth rate on an economy the size of Missouri, how are you surprised nobodoy thinks u can pay new debt bak?

Portugal:  $232.87 Billion US dollars at current prices - 2009
Missouri:  $237.955 Billion US dollars at current prices - 2009

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: memes]
    #14755531 - 07/12/11 06:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah Missouri isn't much of a big deal. :grin:


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: MAIA]
    #14763540 - 07/13/11 04:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Maybe this will make you feel better.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #14765619 - 07/13/11 11:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No thats just a trick!  They're just doing that to put portugal farther in debt!

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Portugal payback on Moody's is made in the cyber world [Re: memes]
    #14766317 - 07/14/11 04:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Those bastards!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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