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FuckMeRunnin
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Why simmer....
#14737043 - 07/08/11 04:08 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Don't flame me for this but, I have noticed if grain is not properly simmered, they expand to full capacity in the PC anyways...So really there is absolutely no point in simmering...Unless there is more to simmering then just the complete saturation of the grain. I say this cuz, I have done both simmer and no simmer, with absolutely no difference. I have also been a pussy while simmering and didn't do it correctly, guess what...? The PC made up for it and expanded the grain anyways. So if the PC process effectively expands the grain, simmering is just a waste of time. When I look at the arguments about simmering vs non simmering, most peoples argument is that its to saturate the grain to the max. This happens anyways...Am i missing something when it comes to simmering?
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bootster


Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 1,531
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 19,636
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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steam dries grains faster than evaporating standing water.
thats about it.
some people soak and dont simmer.
some people simmer and dont soak.
the only important thing is your moisture content. not how you achieved it.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,467
Loc: A tree house
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Re: Why simmer.... [Re: k00laid]
#14737084 - 07/08/11 04:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said: steam dries grains faster than evaporating standing water.
thats about it.
some people soak and dont simmer.
some people simmer and dont soak.
the only important thing is your moisture content. not how you achieved it.
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FuckMeRunnin
REALLY good looking


Registered: 07/18/09
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See, I was under the impression that the 24 soak was not really to saturate, but to cause the endospores to germinate, I realize this happens cuz the seeds become saturated enough to cause germination...I was under the impression simmering was more for saturation, but obviously this will happen with PCing as well. Also will a quick 20 min simmer cause endospores to germinate? I figured that took time, aka 18+ hour soak. If you are correct, I can simmer same day and pc...I dunno man.
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said: See, I was under the impression that the 24 soak was not really to saturate, but to cause the endospores to germinate
thats what they say, but i dont buy it.
the soak provides for most of the hydration, in my opinion.
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LeopardMan
Constantly changing



Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 5,467
Loc: A tree house
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Re: Why simmer.... [Re: k00laid]
#14737167 - 07/08/11 04:34 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said: See, I was under the impression that the 24 soak was not really to saturate, but to cause the endospores to germinate
thats what they say, but i dont buy it.
Same here. I rarely soak my grains and I have never experienced any problem. The endospores conspiracy theory is a huge myth IME
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-Charles Bukowski-
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FuckMeRunnin
REALLY good looking


Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 788
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Why simmer.... [Re: k00laid]
#14737179 - 07/08/11 04:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said: See, I was under the impression that the 24 soak was not really to saturate, but to cause the endospores to germinate
thats what they say, but i dont buy it.
the soak provides for most of the hydration, in my opinion.
Yes, but I believe it takes more then 20 mins for an endospore to activate into its vegetative state. So time is that factor that simmering doesn't cover.
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jellyfish


Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 7,457
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Re: Why simmer.... [Re: k00laid]
#14737183 - 07/08/11 04:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some people just add dry grains and water and then PC. No simmer no soak no worry about endospores. And it works out for them.
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said: See, I was under the impression that the 24 soak was not really to saturate, but to cause the endospores to germinate
thats what they say, but i dont buy it.
the soak provides for most of the hydration, in my opinion.
Yes, but I believe it takes more then 20 mins for an endospore to activate into its vegetative state. So time is that factor that simmering doesn't cover.
and yet, people strictly simmer grains for hydration and pressure cook them and colonize them and fruit them just fine.
go figure
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FuckMeRunnin
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Well, I think its a matter of taking the chance, obviously bacteria exists and probably most of the bacterial contams on grain are probably due to not activating the endosperm. If a bacteria is present on the grain before it dries out, bacteria can go dormant until it receives more favorable conditions. Also I think that bacterial contams go unnoticed by a lot until its too late. Mold and competitive/unwanted fungus are a lot easier to identify then some bacterial contams. So I think they are not a conspiracy, they do exist, and if a bacterial contam does come up down the line there is a good possibility it was because of improper grain treatment...
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k00laid
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oh i think they exist and all that jazz, i just dont think you need to "activate" them to kill them.
i think a pc 90 minute run at 15 psi will kill them whether or not they are "dormant"
edit: but you know.. im just some 20 year old kid extremely new to mycology
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redcat
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Registered: 11/30/09
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Re: Why simmer.... [Re: k00laid]
#14737288 - 07/08/11 04:57 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Immortal Corrupter
Elevator Eater



Registered: 06/08/11
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Re: Why simmer.... [Re: redcat]
#14737574 - 07/08/11 06:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've actually just soaked for 24+hrs then pc'd, worked fine for wbs and rye grass
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Ganja420Boy
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Registered: 11/15/06
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I don't know if anyone else has had a problem like I had but when I first started doing grains with just the 24 hour soak the grains would dry out before the jar was fully colonized with mycelium and never finish. I then started to soak and do a 20 minute simmer and I never had that problem since.
Now I'm not saying that simmering is necessary but thats what worked for me and when you find something that works you tend to stick with it
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Immortal Corrupter
Elevator Eater



Registered: 06/08/11
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Can't argue with that, but I should mention that I do my soaks with coffee/gypsum water. Maybe it helps, I dunno
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FuckMeRunnin
REALLY good looking


Registered: 07/18/09
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Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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I have yet to have a grain jar contam, so I will be sticking with the safe bet of soaking for 24 hours. All I meant by my last post is that, you don't soak or simmer as a mean to the same end. They serve different purposes. Soaking is a step in preventing bacterial contams, its debated how much of a problem endospores actually are, but either way a 24 soak can only help... Simmering on the other hand doesn't do anything but force the grain to absorb as much water as possible. This I don't see necessary, because Pcing the grain will do exactly the same thing. Also I feel you have a much better chance of fucking up your grains by improperly simmering, by exploding or heating up the grain too much. So I see simmering as just another step that can be fucked up...With no real benefits
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said: All I meant by my last post is that, you don't soak or simmer as a mean to the same end. They serve different purposes.
and i was saying, in my opinion, they serve the same purpose. with the steam having a slight bonus to the drying time of the grains.
and burst grains are no big deal
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FuckMeRunnin
REALLY good looking


Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 788
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Why simmer.... [Re: k00laid]
#14738054 - 07/08/11 08:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said: All I meant by my last post is that, you don't soak or simmer as a mean to the same end. They serve different purposes.
and i was saying, in my opinion, they serve the same purpose. with the steam having a slight bonus to the drying time of the grains.
and burst grains are no big deal
Ok, I see that it isn't a matter of soak or simmering its a matter of what you consider the end.
I am saying "technically" according to the tek and most experts, soaking is for activating the endospore into a vegetative state, simply put, "shedding its tough shell". You then can kill the undefended bacteria with heat and pressure. Summary Soakings end= activating endospore.
The end when talking about simmering, in my eyes, is the act of hydrating the grain to its bursting point. So that the mycelium and spores have proper hydration. Summary simmering end= hydrating grain.
Based on the fact that you will not fully hydrate a seed by only soaking, and you can not effectively activate a endospore by simmering for 20 mins the ends are different, and each step serves a different purpose. My whole thing is simmering isn't necessary because the same thing will happen regardless when you pc...So simmering=wasted step...
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k00laid
NEMO


Registered: 05/03/10
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Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said:
Quote:
k00laid said:
Quote:
FuckMeRunnin said: All I meant by my last post is that, you don't soak or simmer as a mean to the same end. They serve different purposes.
and i was saying, in my opinion, they serve the same purpose. with the steam having a slight bonus to the drying time of the grains.
and burst grains are no big deal
Ok, I see that it isn't a matter of soak or simmering its a matter of what you consider the end.
I am saying "technically" according to the tek and most experts, soaking is for activating the endospore into a vegetative state, simply put, "shedding its tough shell".
we'll just see what happens in these coming years ;3
i feel some real progress coming.
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