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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14717489 - 07/04/11 08:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I've studied the shamanic paradigm. They, to a much larger extent, understand how to handle situations in which people are dealing with "spirits" or whatever. They don't have the luxury of locking up what they don't understand and fear in institutions. Contrary to what you are willing to believe, the West has a lot to learn from these cultures who see the world from a different light.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14717518 - 07/04/11 08:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
I've studied the shamanic paradigm. They, to a much larger extent, understand how to handle situations in which people are dealing with "spirits" or whatever.


They, to a large extent, see their experiences from a completely subjective point of view, and don't attempt to view their experiences with an objective lens. They know how to handle such situations because they've experienced them (duh!:tongue:)..this doesn't mean that they fully understand the true nature of what they're experiencing.


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
They don't have the luxury of locking up what they don't understand and fear in institutions.


You don't need to keep saying that the West doesn't understand them, you've already said that..I want a clear explanation as to why you think that. I'm not going to take your word just because you say you've studied that shamanic paradigm.


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Contrary to what you are willing to believe, the West has a lot to learn from these cultures who see the world from a different light.


Yes, there is still much to learn about schizophrenia and other psychotic illnesses, I don't doubt that at all. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14717699 - 07/04/11 09:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The West sees it from a subjective POV as well. :shrug: You don't think scientists are people too? These people in tribal cultures, just like Western scientists, make their observations and use their rational minds to fit it into a working paradigm. Shamanism works for them. In the Western discourse we don't even have a word for spirits - we can't even talk about those possibilities without ridicule or perceived irrational superstition. Jung came close to terminology with 'archetypes', but in the end he even admitted to their possible autonomous nature.

Quote:

"Philemon and other figures of my fantasies brought home to me the crucial insight that there are things in the psyche which I do not produce, but which produce themselves and have their own life. Philemon represented a force which was not myself. In my fantasies I held conversations with him, and he said things which I had not consciously thought. For I observed clearly that it was he who spoke, not I. He said I treated thoughts as if I generated them myself, but in his view thoughts were like animals in the forest, or people in a room, or birds in the air, and added, “If you should see people in a room, you would not think that you had made those people, or that you were responsible for them.” It was he who taught me psychic objectivity, the reality of the psyche. Through him the distinction was clarified between myself and the object of my thought. He confronted me in an objective manner, and I understood that there is something in me which can say things that I do not know and do not intend, things which may even be directed against me."
- CG Jung




I'm not saying the Shamanic paradigm is the only working or true paradigm. But the West has failed to even look at these subjective experiences. Fortunately, there is a lot more to reality then what can be quantified in a test tube. True scientists resist scientism, which shrinks the world into mere physical matter.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14717727 - 07/04/11 09:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The West sees it from a subjective POV as well. :shrug: You don't think scientists are people too?


Scientists view things objectively, and use the scientific method in order to assist them in discovering what is most likely true..shamans do not view things objectively, and do not use anything like the scientific method in order to assist them in discovering what is most likely true.

:spock:


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
These people in tribal cultures, just like Western scientists, make their observations and use their rational minds to fit it into a working paradigm.


I don't believe they are rational..if they were rational, then they would employ something similar to the scientific method when analyzing their belief structures. They are just superstitious weirdos. :nut:


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Shamanism works for them. In the Western discourse we don't even have a word for spirits - we can't even talk about those possibilities without ridicule or perceived irrational superstition.


Yes we do, they're called hallucinations.


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Jung came close to terminology with 'archetypes', but in the end he even admitted to their possible autonomous nature.


Jung was a useless retard..even zappaisgod agrees with me on this. :cool:


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
I'm not saying the Shamanic paradigm is the only working or true paradigm. But the West has failed to even look at these subjective experiences.


I don't believe/agree with you.


Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Fortunately, there is a lot more to reality then what can be quantified in a test tube. True scientists resist scientism, which shrinks the world into mere physical matter.


This is a "No true Scotsman" fallacy. :blewmeanie:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14717932 - 07/04/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Ah yes, I forgot it's all just hallucinations. :picard: Yikes... :rolleyes: I think you're in the wrong forum. :lol:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14718063 - 07/04/11 10:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:andyistic:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14718156 - 07/04/11 11:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Are you hallucinating typos? :crazy2:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #14718174 - 07/04/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I'm pretty sure you just ninja-edited your typo out of existence. :bored:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineyeah
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14718571 - 07/05/11 01:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
responding to posts with a posting style from circa 2001






--------------------

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: yeah]
    #14718576 - 07/05/11 01:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:lolwut:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedon_vedo
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14721302 - 07/05/11 04:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
:lolwut:



:laugh2:

Why poid do you consider the scientific method to be objective and not subjective. Is the scientific method based on finding truth then? Over time many scientific constants have been proven to be inconstant, what was once proven true using the scientific method may now be considered false. In my opinion subjectivity lies in all thoughts and assumptions, what is true for one may be false for another depending on the perception they take. Like c0sm0 stated I think the west can learn a good bit from shamanism as well as other ancient cultures just like they in turn could learn a lot from the west.

Lah'Kesh


--------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: don_vedo]
    #14722246 - 07/05/11 07:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

don_vedo said:
Why poid do you consider the scientific method to be objective and not subjective.


Scientific method
Quote:

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge...Scientific inquiry is generally intended to be as objective as possible, to reduce biased interpretations of results.




Quote:

don_vedo said:
Is the scientific method based on finding truth then?


Yes.


Quote:

don_vedo said:
Over time many scientific constants have been proven to be inconstant, what was once proven true using the scientific method may now be considered false.


Point being?


Quote:

don_vedo said:
Like c0sm0 stated I think the west can learn a good bit from shamanism as well as other ancient cultures just like they in turn could learn a lot from the west.


I agree with this, we could learn a lot from any population of schizophrenic subjects. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedon_vedo
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14722537 - 07/05/11 08:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I agree with this, we could learn a lot from any population of schizophrenic subjects. :shrug:




Over time many scientific constants have been proven to be inconstant, what was once proven true using the scientific method may now be considered false.

Point being that in my opinion the objective nature of the scientific method as described by you doesn't always seem to end in objectivity over time; with different subjectivity comes different results that can replace that which was once objective.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, I may be well off but in my opinion it just seems that everything is subjective from a singular point of view. With objectivity comes ignorance to a certain degree.

Lah'Kesh


--------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

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OfflineDrGreenThumb865
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: don_vedo]
    #14722597 - 07/05/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This whole thread has went way :offtopicman:

:doublefacepalm:


--------------------
:mushdance:



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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: don_vedo]
    #14722640 - 07/05/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

don_vedo said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I agree with this, we could learn a lot from any population of schizophrenic subjects. :shrug:




Over time many scientific constants have been proven to be inconstant, what was once proven true using the scientific method may now be considered false.

Point being that in my opinion the objective nature of the scientific method as described by you doesn't always seem to end in objectivity over time...


The objective nature of the scientific method remains regardless of how people subjectively apply it.


Quote:

don_vedo said:
...with different subjectivity comes different results that can replace that which was once objective.


Scientific data is objective..theories, on the other hand, are created by scientists using their subjective analysis of data. The great thing about the scientific method is that it's great at producing objective data via the implementation of repeatable experiments..shamans do not do that, at all. They rely purely on their own superstitions.

Sure, sometimes scientists disagree, but their disagreements stem from their subjective analysis of objective facts (i.e. scientific data) whose truth value, unlike theories, never changes. Shamans do not base their ideas on objective data acquired via the scientific method (or some other similarly-rational system), they merely base them on their own idiosyncratic subjective interpretations of reality, which generally persist even in the face of contravening evidence.


There is a huge difference between how scientists form theories, and how shamans form incontrovertible "truths".


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (07/05/11 09:24 PM)

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Offlinedon_vedo
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14722697 - 07/05/11 09:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

:whathesaid:

When your right...your right :lol:

I would agree with all that your saying, as you make very valid points.

I think we both also agree that there is a lot of learning that each side could do from one another. In my opinion it comes down to the combination of both the physical and non-physical.

Lah'Kesh


--------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: don_vedo]
    #14722729 - 07/05/11 09:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)




PS--:andyistic:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineDrGreenThumb865
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14722887 - 07/05/11 09:55 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:



PS--:andyistic:



That's odd... says you're a male...

Anyway, in attempt to get this thread back on topic, I believe if a king is reincarnated he will not be entitled to the land he once ruled because he simply will not remember it and could possibly be born a peasant or even an animal...

On the other hand... If the king is reincarnated as his great great great grandchild or whatever, and the throne is handed down with each generation, then yes there is a good chance he will be entitled to the land he once owned or even more land...

Nobody really knows though, these are ultimately just theories. But fun to think about...

:2cents:


--------------------
:mushdance:



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Offlinedon_vedo
MerKaBa
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: Poid]
    #14723169 - 07/05/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
PS--:andyistic:




Yah Yah, I probably should re-read before hitting the "submit" button. Thanks for keeping me on my toes, you're right again :wink:

Lah'Kesh


--------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us all. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Fun question based on reincarnation [Re: don_vedo]
    #14723952 - 07/06/11 02:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sure, sometimes scientists disagree, but their disagreements stem from their subjective analysis of objective facts (i.e. scientific data) whose truth value, unlike theories, never changes. Shamans do not base their ideas on objective data acquired via the scientific method (or some other similarly-rational system), they merely base them on their own idiosyncratic subjective interpretations of reality, which generally persist even in the face of contravening evidence.





What exactly is your point again? shamans are not scientists so what? you figure they are irrational because they do not go beyond the scientifict method? do you not see that massive limitations of science and raw data?

What exactly do you believe science has established as fact which discredits shamanism and makes them irrational schitzos?

All arts beyond science = irrational?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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