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OfflinePhred
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1476359 - 04/20/03 11:32 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Look at the Shah in Iran.

Am I the only one reading this who finds it ironic that silversoul7 mentions as an argument explaining why the ISlamists hate the USA an intervention in Middle Eastern politics that the fundamentalist Muslims actually greeted with great joy -- the fall of the Shah?

pinky


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: Phred]
    #1476832 - 04/20/03 03:59 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

If you are honestly comparing the regime of Saddam to the US system, you are obviously a fool. I've lived in mostly every Arab nation (Never been to Pakistan however) and i've seen how the live. I've had them come up to me and ask me what freedom was like, beg me to see if I could get their familes over there, if I could find any job for them. Why do you think that immigrants are so happy to work jobs that most Americans won't, because their own countries are horrible! It must be nice to sit back in liberal white america and utilize your freedoms to tell us how much other nations don't want those freedoms.

Pz

Johnny R


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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Anonymous

Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1476956 - 04/20/03 04:42 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

It is fairly foolish to disregard an idea as something foolish- even sillier to abandon comparisons because they are not immediately simple to follow. My family fled from a harsh communist regime, and wandered as refugees- spending a fair amount of time in Middle Eastern Countries- Nigeria and Libya among them. Nigeria and Libya are remembered with a certain... fondness- there was an occasional incident of intolerance- but everything worked out well.

Then, when we all came to America- we met the greatest intolerance from immigration help- My mother, asked what she wanted, casually just said that she wanted a house to live in ( it was just something simple ), and the workers scoffed at the idea and were actually appalled that she could want "so much"! Throughout their experiences to this day- they have endured and still endure bigotry at every level- simple accents are a signal for Americans to disregard a person as dumb or uneducated- many incidents have clearly shown such a trend ( this post is not to discuss that, and i will not provide incidents now as they would take up much time ).

The little help that they received was from religious priests and people who have endured similar hardships ( you mentioned that other people are glad to take jobs Americans won't- what BS! the good jobs are withheld and a system of inferiority is imposed ). America.. undeniably, is isolated far more than most other countries ( you can argue that isolationism ended a long time ago, but America is very large and very far from hostile powers- the people have grown decadent because they usually feel extremely safe ).

My father witnessed the ruins of war, and lived through times when fear was a daily fact to grow accustomed to. His father was a soldeir in the war- and was nearly executed ( my grandmother bribed Russian soldeirs with vodka to infiltrate the base and rescue him- the Russian soldeirs were very poor and just loved any alcohal they could get.. ). But you know what?- None of us supports the war in Iraq. Saddam is seen as a very bad leader.. some of my family regards him a demon, but America's intervention is a treachery- it is a bloodthirsty push by corporations- it was begun by diplomatic bungling and ending with pure incompetence- no real compromise was offered- war was a definite primary objective- not peace or resolvement of a problem.

Everything in this world is a set of action and reaction- it is a facet of reality. War and violence never lead to happiness- families have been destroyed and resentment will brew. Just because everyone is wrong, it doesn't mean someone has to be right ( think about how it connects to this if you dont get it .. )

"It must be nice to sit back in liberal white america and utilize your freedoms to tell us how much other nations don't want those freedoms."

You blindly spit poison and feel your argument is obviously superior.. very nice! No one said other nations dont want freedom- but America sure as hell didn't provide it to most people who came here ( I have way more than my family's own experiences). It IS good in many respects..- nowhere else can someone in the lower class soar to the upper class through skill or merit, but nowhere else do you find so much lack of merit being rewarded. Make sure your mentioned liberties are available to all before blabbering about how everyone should have them, exactly in the same way.

Out of curiosity, why were you in all those Arabic countries? How long did you stay in each?










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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: ]
    #1476975 - 04/20/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

If war can't bring happiness,  I supposed the world would be sans Judaism right now, hm?

I travel alot, I spent around a year doing my travels in that part of the world.  I prefer Asia hands down

also, i think it's going to be really funny when America starts buying Iraqi oil, the average Iraqi actually has some money and can afford food, and we are better off for cheaper oil prices.  They'll love it, we'll love it, but the liberals will still bitch and whine, I'm sure :smile:

Pz

johnny R


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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Anonymous

Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477050 - 04/20/03 05:25 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Almost as funny as when America will fall to its own greed.. but I doubt I'll live to see that- superpowers always take so long to collapse- especially one with no real comparison from history


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: Phred]
    #1477262 - 04/20/03 07:30 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

Also, we've helped protect a corrupt and unpopular regime in Saudi Arabia because they sell us cheap oil.

Protect from whom?



Perhaps "protect" was the wrong choice of words. "Support" would be a much better word choice.

Quote:

We hand-picked the current leader of Afghanistan, rather than letting the people decide.

Incorrect. The current leader of the Afghan interim authority, Karzai, was selected by the Afghan traditional council, the Loya Jirga. It may surprise you to learn that the Loya Jirga has no American members, and that Americans were not allowed to vote in that selection, but it is the truth.



Indeed, I stand corrected.

Quote:

Is that enough examples for you?

No. Your only relevant example was Iran, a single country who was last tampered with two and a half decades ago.



Very well, then. How about our military support for Israel in its slaughter of Palestinians? Also, Saudi Arabia isn't the only country where we've supported an oppressive regime. How about Kuwait, or Turkey, or Pakistan?

Quote:

I'd like to continue debating about this subject, but such a debate belongs in the S&P Forum.

I suggest if you are not prepared to back up in this forum the arbitrary proclamations you make, that you refrain from making them in this forum.



I was merely trying to stay on topic, but since you insist, I'll gladly debate with you about objectivism vs. subjectivism. If there are indeed objective morals, then how do you know what they are? How do you know whose morals are correct and whose aren't.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: Phred]
    #1477264 - 04/20/03 07:32 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 writes:

Look at the Shah in Iran.

Am I the only one reading this who finds it ironic that silversoul7 mentions as an argument explaining why the ISlamists hate the USA an intervention in Middle Eastern politics that the fundamentalist Muslims actually greeted with great joy -- the fall of the Shah?



I was not talking about the fall of the Shah(which we did not cause), but his installment into power in the first place.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477272 - 04/20/03 07:36 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

also, i think it's going to be really funny when America starts buying Iraqi oil, the average Iraqi actually has some money and can afford food, and we are better off for cheaper oil prices.  They'll love it, we'll love it, but the liberals will still bitch and whine, I'm sure :smile:



...And Muslim radicals won't have time to bitch and whine because they'll be too busy killing Americans.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1477283 - 04/20/03 07:40 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Well, as for morals...

I think that bottom line, democracy means that you live and let live.  This is the basis of liberty.  If everyone lived by the golden rule (or if you'd like, by JSM's Utilitarianism) we wouldn't have people like Saddam in power.  Utilitarianism states that we do what is good for the majority of the people, for if we do that, then we are making the most people happy.  Now, under Saddam's rule, none of these condtions were met. The good of the majority was not considered, it was the good of the ruling elite (and more specifically, since saddam killed them from tiem to time, it was the will of SADDAM) that led the nation.  Obviously if you belive in utiliarianism, democracy is the way to go.  Can you give me examples of any philosophers that would condone what saddam did in Iraq? probably not :smile:



Pz

Johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477339 - 04/20/03 08:05 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I think that bottom line, democracy means that you live and let live.



That has little to do with democracy.  Democracy means mob rule.

Quote:

This is the basis of liberty.  If everyone lived by the golden rule (or if you'd like, by JSM's Utilitarianism) we wouldn't have people like Saddam in power.  Utilitarianism states that we do what is good for the majority of the people, for if we do that, then we are making the most people happy.



If you look back to the 1950's, segregation made the white majority happy, while oppressing the black minority.  Did that make it right?

Quote:

Now, under Saddam's rule, none of these condtions were met. The good of the majority was not considered, it was the good of the ruling elite (and more specifically, since saddam killed them from tiem to time, it was the will of SADDAM) that led the nation.  Obviously if you belive in utiliarianism, democracy is the way to go.  Can you give me examples of any philosophers that would condone what saddam did in Iraq? probably not :smile:



Not necessarily, but I can name some philosophers that would say that there is no universal morality, including Nietzsche, Heidegger, and Sartre.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1477447 - 04/20/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Sartre would have been against the war in Iraq? Sartre of "man is what man makes himself" would have been AGAINSt the war on Saddam? Dear god, are you just throwing out names to sound smart or have you read them. JP Sartre believed that all "man" (humanity) is is a combination of every individual man alive. If we allow men like Saddam (or the House of Saud, or any other nation like that) to survive, we are not only condoning their activities, but in Sartres mind, we would be, as humanity, judged as having let them exist, and judged BY their actions. I wouldn't just pop out names of philosophers on me, my father has his bachelors and his PhD in philosophy, as well as his law degree, and he has inculcated me with alot of philosophical works.


Pz


Johnny R

BTW, if you are using something in a post against my beliefs, don't say "well why do we let [insert name of tyrant here] exist?" because in my opinion, we shouldn't. We should go out and Americanize the world.

JR


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477461 - 04/20/03 08:36 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Sartre would have been against the war in Iraq?



I didn't say that. I said he believed in subjective morality. And I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to say whether or not he would have supported a war which he did not live to see.

Quote:

BTW, if you are using something in a post against my beliefs, don't say "well why do we let [insert name of tyrant here] exist?" because in my opinion, we shouldn't. We should go out and Americanize the world.



My, how arrogant of you to assume I'm just talking to you, especially when the post you refer to is a reply to someone else.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (04/20/03 08:38 PM)

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1477541 - 04/20/03 09:04 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, i'm confused :smile: I'm the only person thats mentioned philosophers relating to morality here, and the post I replied to with my Sartre comment included that.  I'm not sure if it was you or not,  I only reply to messages, not people :smile:

Again, you all missed the first post in this thread.  i posited the theory that the same basic freedoms that allow us to flame Gee Dub (and each other) and criticize each other are the same basic freedoms that they don't have.  I want everyone to remember that the next time they type somethign against Gee Dub or against the war effort, if you had done that SAME action in Iraq against their leadership, you'd have been killed or imprisoned.  Thats what I want to do, rekindle a care and love for American freedoms, the same freedoms we are all utilizing right now by posting on this board.  You are really your own worse argument.  You obviously belive that people SHOULD have a right to protest anything they want, even if it is their leadership, but you deny the Iraqi's the right do to that? Your own action of doing it implies that you value it's worth, and that you believe that they are functional values.  If you have the right to complain about your leader, but you do't want someone else to, are you really understanding what freedom is?

Pz

Johnny R


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477596 - 04/20/03 09:29 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Again, you all missed the first post in this thread. i posited the theory that the same basic freedoms that allow us to flame Gee Dub (and each other) and criticize each other are the same basic freedoms that they don't have. I want everyone to remember that the next time they type somethign against Gee Dub or against the war effort, if you had done that SAME action in Iraq against their leadership, you'd have been killed or imprisoned. Thats what I want to do, rekindle a care and love for American freedoms, the same freedoms we are all utilizing right now by posting on this board.



So what? That doesn't make this war justified.

Quote:

You obviously belive that people SHOULD have a right to protest anything they want, even if it is their leadership, but you deny the Iraqi's the right do to that?



I never denied that right to the Iraqis. Saddam did. I just feel that if they wanted that right, they should've risen up against him en masse, instead of relying on us to take him out.

Quote:

Your own action of doing it implies that you value it's worth, and that you believe that they are functional values. If you have the right to complain about your leader, but you don't want someone else to, are you really understanding what freedom is?



Tell me where I said that I don't want others to have that freedom.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478382 - 04/21/03 07:39 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

silversoul7 writes:

"Support" would be a much better word choice.

"Support" how? By buying their oil? Half the countries in the world buy their oil.

Is "support" defined by the fact that the Saudis are allowed to buy American weaponry? Guess what -- they buy weaponry from a lot of other countries as well.

Or do you refer to the US garrison stationed on Saudi soil since the first Gulf War -- a garrison that was stationed there at the request of the Saudi government to dissuade Hussein from more adventurism? The same garrison that was NOT there prior to 1991. And, given the rumblings from Saudi these days, a garrison that may very well be asked to keave now that Iraq is no longer a threat to Saudi Arabia.

You do know, of course, that S.A. has been a US ally since the days of Harry Truman in 1947, and that US allies often make requests for a token US military presence on their soil.

How about our military support for Israel in its slaughter of Palestinians?

Do you deny Israel's right to exist? Do you deny their right to purchase weaponry?

Also, Saudi Arabia isn't the only country where we've supported an oppressive regime. How about Kuwait, or Turkey, or Pakistan?

Again, define "support". Clearly you must mean more than just doing business with them, since all three countries do business with dozens of other countries. If you mean a military presence, is it surprising that Kuwait would request military help from the same country that kicked out the Iraqis twelve years ago? As for Turkey, both the US and Turkey are members of NATO. And Pakistan aided the US in its efforts to track down Osama and the boys. Are they not entitled to some quid pro quo?

If there are indeed objective morals, then how do you know what they are?

By observing the nature of the universe and man's means of survival within that universe.

How do you know whose morals are correct and whose aren't.

By observation. As an example, virtually every society since the dawn of recorded history has independently come to the same conclusions regarding the immorality of murder, assault, and theft. Murder is wrong, regardless of what the priests or the majority may tell you, because it is a violation of the individual's right to life.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: Phred]
    #1478409 - 04/21/03 08:11 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Guess what -- they buy weaponry from a lot of other countries as well.

That makes everything allright then.

a garrison that was stationed there at the request of the Saudi government

"Government" is a little kind. Corrupt, vicious US-backed puppet dictatorship would be more accurate.

Amnesty International accused Saudi Arabia yesterday of running a justice system based on terror, secrecy and torture that results in the highest rate of execution in the world ? an average of two public beheadings every week.

In a report on human rights observance in the desert kingdom, Amnesty said the government has "systematically targeted its political and religious opponents, and abused the rights of migrant workers, women and other relatively powerless individuals."

There was a "culture of brutality, torture and ill-treatment" in police stations. Defendants had no right to a lawyer, and were often convicted on the basis of confession extracted by torture or deceit, the report said.

http://www.ukar.org/philps01.shtml

You do know, of course, that S.A. has been a US ally

Yep, and the saudi people are savagely oppressed. Go figure.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: Phred]
    #1478702 - 04/21/03 10:23 AM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If there are indeed objective morals, then how do you know what they are?

By observing the nature of the universe and man's means of survival within that universe.



Man survives by looking after his own. It is the same with every animal. There is nothing objective about that.

Quote:

How do you know whose morals are correct and whose aren't.

By observation. As an example, virtually every society since the dawn of recorded history has independently come to the same conclusions regarding the immorality of murder, assault, and theft. Murder is wrong, regardless of what the priests or the majority may tell you, because it is a violation of the individual's right to life.



But what is murder? Is war murder? How about the death penalty? Abortion? Meat? Fur? All of these things have been called murder by various different groups, yet there are many who would disagree. While every society says that murder is wrong, they almost always make exceptions. Same thing with assault and theft.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinegrib
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1479060 - 04/21/03 12:59 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

That has little to do with democracy. Democracy means mob rule.




That's basically true...


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: Phred]
    #1479105 - 04/21/03 01:17 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Do you deny Israel's right to exist? Do you deny their right to purchase weaponry?

Why does one nation, which uses weaponry against civillians (and not ALL of them are bad), have the "right" to purchase weapons while another nation does not?

Just playing devils advocate here....  :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Something for Anti-War'ers to consider :) [Re: trendal]
    #1479214 - 04/21/03 02:18 PM (20 years, 11 months ago)

Did Alex say that the the Saudi Arabian govt (the house of saud) is US backed? Are you on some sort of drug, friend?  They believe in Wahabism, a sect of Islam that it's leader (shiek something wahab) interpreted as the destruction of all things not mentioned in the Koran, they use that to justify their hatred for the US.  IF they were a "puppet government", then the state run news in SA (which, since they aren't free either, is the only source of news they have) told their peopel that 9/11 was commited by Jewish terrorists (After they'd made sure the jews wer eout of the trade centers) who were trying to make the Arabs look bad.  ALso, a Gallup poll taken in the middle east shows that EIGHTY FOUR PERCCENT Of the poeple over there believe that! Doesn't sound like a "puppet government" to me.

silver -You've shown how much you really care about IRaq.  You've ceded my point that Saddam was a ruthless cutthroat bastard, but you said that his own people should have risen up, instead of us doing anything to help them.  well, after Gulf War pt I, they tried to rise up, and saddam had them all killed.  To use your moral logic, if I was walking down the street and I looked in a window and saw a man beating his children with, lets say a hammer (so it's obvious child abuse), should I not do anything for fera of being a "colonizer"? Should I just hope hte kids uprise, and go back to my comfy white dorm room? Go live in the world before you tell us what its' "like' out there.


As for "Waht is murder?" murder legally is the wanton killing of a human being in a means other than self defense.  Thats a pretty simple one.

Did someone say that morals are subjective?  Maybe such things as adultery and what not are, but things like "gassign your own people after not letting them rise above a poverty level [the average iraqi makes THREE DOLLARS A MONTH], keeping them ignorant and starving in the streets, and brutally killing anyone [and their familes] who disagrees with you" thats called "wrong" in any moral language, unless you are a brainwashed Islamic zealot, in which case, you are still wrong :smile:

Pz

Johnny R


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!

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