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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Obey the King.
    #14704959 - 07/02/11 12:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Obey the King

Ecclesiastes 8 OT

2Obey the king’s command, I say, because you took an oath before God. 3Do not be in a hurry to leave the king’s presence. Do not stand up for a bad cause, for he will do whatever he pleases. 4Since a king’s word is supreme, who can say to him, “What are you doing?”

5Whoever obeys his command will come to no harm,
and the wise heart will know the proper time and procedure.

6For there is a proper time and procedure for every matter,though a man’s misery weighs heavily upon him.

7Since no man knows the future,who can tell him what is to come?8No man has power over the wind to contain ita;so no one has power over the day of his death.As no one is discharged in time of war,so wickedness will not release those who practice it.

The Moral of the Story;

To be a good slave and to realize that no one is discharged from fighting the kings wars.

:feelsgoodman:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineZiggy-Shr00mdust
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Registered: 05/14/11
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14705209 - 07/02/11 02:45 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.


--------------------
He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it


To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Ziggy-Shr00mdust] * 1
    #14705215 - 07/02/11 02:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




yak testicles FTW


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Ziggy-Shr00mdust]
    #14707175 - 07/02/11 03:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




yak testicles FTW




Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.

Get it through your head forum!

Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa] * 1
    #14707268 - 07/02/11 04:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

There's almost no Christians frequenting this forum.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Icelander]
    #14707675 - 07/02/11 06:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Not after you drove them out. :mad:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14708477 - 07/02/11 08:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)


That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.


Seems like a stretch to me to take one out of context section in one book of the Bible and say that it points to the creation of the book. Especially when referencing a book that has traveled through so many historical periods.

Did you take that from the King Jame's Version by chance?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14708485 - 07/02/11 08:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.

Get it through your head forum!

Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Yea, but it's par for the course in history. Perhaps the meaning of 'slave' carries different connotations. Life was pretty rough back then. The nations and tribes that didn't operate in strict hierarchies became victims of genocide. I'll not suggest it was "God's word", but will suggest that your term 'slave' might be harshly used.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Rahz]
    #14708519 - 07/02/11 08:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I thought this wikipedia summary of Ecclesiastes was funny considering the similarities to what most people here believe.

"The work emphatically proclaims all the actions of man to be inherently "vain", "futile", "empty", "meaningless", "temporary", "transitory", "fleeting, or "mere breath", depending on translation, as the lives of both wise and foolish men end in death. While Qoheleth clearly endorses wisdom as a means for a well-lived earthly life, he is unable to ascribe eternal meaning to it. In light of this perceived senselessness, he suggests that one should enjoy the simple pleasures of daily life, such as eating, drinking, and taking enjoyment in one's work."


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Ziggy-Shr00mdust]
    #14708540 - 07/02/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




how about, treat others as you would have them treat you?


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Kickle]
    #14708545 - 07/02/11 09:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

For all the flack it gets, IMO the bible...especially the old testament wisdom type stuff had some very deep thinking dudes holding the pen.

You can't blame them for putting it into the only context they had available to them.  Back then you were born into your religion and leaving was not really an option.

I suppose it's like all the old texts in this regard.  Dudes staying up late, asking the same old questions and coming to similar conclusions across the world and over millennia.

And now they're all dead. 

:lol:


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What's up everybody?!

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Offline4896744
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14708552 - 07/02/11 09:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




how about, treat others as you would have them treat you?




Everything is a "valid source of moral values". That is unless your criterion for something being considered valid is that it must also be objective.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: 4896744]
    #14708673 - 07/02/11 09:36 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

maybe thats what he meant


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Cups]
    #14709011 - 07/02/11 11:20 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
For all the flack it gets, IMO the bible...especially the old testament wisdom type stuff had some very deep thinking dudes holding the pen.




I agree. There really aren't many answers in the Bible from what I've read. Lots of talk of what's going on and where the wisdom/power seems to be in relation to what's going on. Also lots of dialogues where a solution to a problem is proposed. The fact that a given solution worked is likely how it landed itself in the Bible in the first place. The solution itself was found to be powerful and wise :shrug:


Quote:

Cups said:
You can't blame them for putting it into the only context they had available to them.





Yah. I don't think many do. But I think lots of people do blame the current populace for ignoring that context and nitpicking only what they want.

Quote:

Cups said:
I suppose it's like all the old texts in this regard.  Dudes staying up late, asking the same old questions and coming to similar conclusions across the world and over millennia.

And now they're all dead. 

:lol:




:smirk:

I had a professor once tell me that a culture that isn't changing is dead. It makes me wonder just how much change is really happening within the Christian culture and what aspects are overdue to die.

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Kickle]
    #14710273 - 07/03/11 08:54 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)


Quote:

Kickle said:

That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.


Seems like a stretch to me to take one out of context section in one book of the Bible and say that it points to the creation of the book. Especially when referencing a book that has traveled through so many historical periods.

Did you take that from the King Jame's Version by chance?





It would seem like a stretch if there wasn't other instances of this theme; these two instances are found in the new testament, even jesus himself subscribes to the idea of submitting to governing authorities, who were by no means TREATING PEOPLE in a JUST MANNER...which ironically he supposedly preached.

Romans 13 1-7

A Christians duty to the state.


Context: Apostle Paul, letter to the Roman's concerning Christs understanding of government.

Philosophical interpretation: Religion as a form of slavery, as a way to suppress political unrest, upheaval and revolution, particularly from the 'feudal' systems of governess at the time of its inception.

Note: Although I haven't looked at this for some time, correct me if the definition is incomplete but Feudal Governance is governance by a single authority that does not share power equally, is above the law, writes history and the law and more importantly by which the power in that system is handed down to the predecessors of the ruling elite.

PASSAGE:

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Another passage DIRECT from the man of the hour, himself, head hauncho, Hesu' Christo!

Luke 20:20-26

Paying Taxes to Caesar

20 Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be sincere. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said, so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him: “Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”

23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 “Show me a denarius. Whose image and inscription are on it?”

  “Caesar’s,” they replied.

25 He said to them, “Then give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

26 They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


Edited by AlphaFalfa (07/03/11 08:57 AM)

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Rahz]
    #14710296 - 07/03/11 09:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.

Get it through your head forum!

Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Yea, but it's par for the course in history. Perhaps the meaning of 'slave' carries different connotations. Life was pretty rough back then. The nations and tribes that didn't operate in strict hierarchies became victims of genocide. I'll not suggest it was "God's word", but will suggest that your term 'slave' might be harshly used.




Well, I disagree. A person considered a slave in those times would work much much more and have much much less to show for it.

I am not even sure what you mean by connotation, when clearly in the past we have specific proof that there were plenty of people who worked far far more and had much much much less to show for it...even to the point of starvation....So I still can't see what a concept of different 'connotation' would have to do with anything.

A differing connotation to me would describe a different meaning for a similar word. For example, slave in the past may just have meant, middle class individual and hence the need to bring up the fact that there are different connotations....

Care to explain what you meant?


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Registered: 10/31/04
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14710297 - 07/03/11 09:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




yak testicles FTW




Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.

Get it through your head forum!

Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Hey don't order me around you are the king of nothing.  Nothing I say.  Well maybe something but I say nothing.  Ha ha ha ha.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14710305 - 07/03/11 09:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




yak testicles FTW




Quote:

Ziggy-Shr00mdust said:
Religion sucks yak testicles, big whoop. I challenge anyone to find a valid source of moral values anywhere in the bible.




That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.

Get it through your head forum!

Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Hey don't order me around you are the king of nothing.  Nothing I say.  Well maybe something but I say nothing.  Ha ha ha ha.




:penis:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14710316 - 07/03/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Hey don't order me around you are the king of nothing.  Nothing I say.  Well maybe something but I say nothing.  Ha ha ha ha.




:penis:




Do The Hustle.  Have You?  Ever?  How about The Shuffle?  The Muffle?  I could go on don't tempt me....


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14710322 - 07/03/11 09:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Everybody was Kung-fu fight-ing.
Them cats was fast as light-ning!


--------------------

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14710573 - 07/03/11 11:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Hey don't order me around you are the king of nothing.  Nothing I say.  Well maybe something but I say nothing.  Ha ha ha ha.




:penis:




Do The Hustle.  Have You?  Ever?  How about The Shuffle?  The Muffle?  I could go on don't tempt me....





:shrug:

Go on....?


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14711064 - 07/03/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:

Quote:

Kickle said:

That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.


Seems like a stretch to me to take one out of context section in one book of the Bible and say that it points to the creation of the book. Especially when referencing a book that has traveled through so many historical periods.

Did you take that from the King Jame's Version by chance?





It would seem like a stretch if there wasn't other instances of this theme; these two instances are found in the new testament, even jesus himself subscribes to the idea of submitting to governing authorities, who were by no means TREATING PEOPLE in a JUST MANNER...which ironically he supposedly preached.





Dude I think you are projecting blame pretty heavy here. Might makes right with or without the Bible pointing it out.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14711622 - 07/03/11 03:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well, I disagree. A person considered a slave in those times would work much much more and have much much less to show for it.

I am not even sure what you mean by connotation, when clearly in the past we have specific proof that there were plenty of people who worked far far more and had much much much less to show for it...even to the point of starvation....So I still can't see what a concept of different 'connotation' would have to do with anything.

A differing connotation to me would describe a different meaning for a similar word. For example, slave in the past may just have meant, middle class individual and hence the need to bring up the fact that there are different connotations....

Care to explain what you meant?




A society that allowed people to be insubordinate would have been weaker and insufficient to repel neighboring war lords. For this reason, the lives of both the King and the subjects depended on a rigid hierarchy. It would become the norm in agricultural societies. Both subjects and slaves were at the complete mercy of their Kings, but slaves would have drawn a distinction, and most would have much preferred to be subjects.

I'm not going so far as to state that a subject wasn't a slave in any sense of the word, yet the connotation seems different to me. Slavery could represent a variety of living conditions and relative levels of freedom, so to not make a distinction between a subject and a slave is to ignore the realities of that pre modern world.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Edited by Rahz (07/03/11 04:38 PM)

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14712290 - 07/03/11 06:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Hey don't order me around you are the king of nothing.  Nothing I say.  Well maybe something but I say nothing.  Ha ha ha ha.




:penis:




Do The Hustle.  Have You?  Ever?  How about The Shuffle?  The Muffle?  I could go on don't tempt me....





:shrug:

Go on....?




Have you ever danced under a mirror ball?  Did you like it?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
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Last seen: 10 years, 29 days
Re: Obey the King. [Re: Rahz]
    #14713712 - 07/04/11 12:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Well, I disagree. A person considered a slave in those times would work much much more and have much much less to show for it.

I am not even sure what you mean by connotation, when clearly in the past we have specific proof that there were plenty of people who worked far far more and had much much much less to show for it...even to the point of starvation....So I still can't see what a concept of different 'connotation' would have to do with anything.

A differing connotation to me would describe a different meaning for a similar word. For example, slave in the past may just have meant, middle class individual and hence the need to bring up the fact that there are different connotations....

Care to explain what you meant?




A society that allowed people to be insubordinate would have been weaker and insufficient to repel neighboring war lords. For this reason, the lives of both the King and the subjects depended on a rigid hierarchy. It would become the norm in agricultural societies. Both subjects and slaves were at the complete mercy of their Kings, but slaves would have drawn a distinction, and most would have much preferred to be subjects.

I'm not going so far as to state that a subject wasn't a slave in any sense of the word, yet the connotation seems different to me. Slavery could represent a variety of living conditions and relative levels of freedom, so to not make a distinction between a subject and a slave is to ignore the realities of that pre modern world.




That makes sense, but why I disagree is that we have proof that 'slaves' in the past, means the same if not worse to what it means now. We have historical proof that slaves had horrible lives, lived with hardly any freedoms in diseased conditions....

I don't know how or why we began forming into these groups....we have no historical proof as to why.

Either way this hierarchy existed and the bible seems to be a great way for the wealthy ruling class to control uprisings/mutiny without having to do so physically. Rather than trying to stop rebellions through violence, you get slaves to think that murder/robbery/ and apparently going against autocratic and repressive regimes will land you in a barbque burning for eternity!!!!! If you can get your slaves to believe this and recognize that any pleasure one can take from rebelling violently against the rich and taking back lands/riches would dwarf in comparison to being in heaven, then you have a situation where these slaves willingly give themselves unto their leaders, while unknowingly thinking they are giving themselves to god...Capishe???

On another note, the bibles potency is also elevated by the fact that the slaves/poor class would be completely uneducated and incapable of thinking critically about the obvious contradictions in the bible....

Lastly, we all know that the ruling class has always traditionally been associated in almost all cultures with divinity....

As a final note, it does also justice to remember that it is always the wealthy elite that write/transcribe/edit the historical events of their generations.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #14713715 - 07/04/11 12:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

LunarEclipse said:
Thats what this shit is here for, rest any questions you may have.




Hey don't order me around you are the king of nothing.  Nothing I say.  Well maybe something but I say nothing.  Ha ha ha ha.




:penis:




Do The Hustle.  Have You?  Ever?  How about The Shuffle?  The Muffle?  I could go on don't tempt me....





:shrug:

Go on....?




Have you ever danced under a mirror ball?  Did you like it?




:feelsgoodman:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
imagine


Registered: 06/16/08
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Kickle]
    #14713733 - 07/04/11 12:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:

Quote:

Kickle said:

That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.


Seems like a stretch to me to take one out of context section in one book of the Bible and say that it points to the creation of the book. Especially when referencing a book that has traveled through so many historical periods.

Did you take that from the King Jame's Version by chance?





It would seem like a stretch if there wasn't other instances of this theme; these two instances are found in the new testament, even jesus himself subscribes to the idea of submitting to governing authorities, who were by no means TREATING PEOPLE in a JUST MANNER...which ironically he supposedly preached.





Dude I think you are projecting blame pretty heavy here. Might makes right with or without the Bible pointing it out.





Then care to explain how or why these passages and many more are contextualized around submitting to authority?

You don't find it ironic that a man who preached to love one an other equally, never said anything negative about the existence of slavery????

Yet the very same man even promotes the idea of paying taxes???

And yes I am projecting blame, due to these difficult to reconcile obvious and easily verifiable parts of the bible.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14713840 - 07/04/11 01:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Since the entire thing revolves around submitting to the authority of God I don't see why you are so surprised. :shrug:

As God is omniscent, omnipotent etc accepting the circumstances you are dealt is part of accepting his will in your life etc.  Putting faith in god is no small thing-

Quote:

“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.




Kind of impractical, but beautiful anyway.

Plus you have to remember the context of the early church.  They had no desire to pick a fight with Rome or the local governments...things were rough enough as was.  So, even if Jesus did speak against these things it's not surprising it didn't make the official cut.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Cups]
    #14713849 - 07/04/11 01:06 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I am not sure what you mean.

What are you trying to say?


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14713911 - 07/04/11 01:24 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Try harder. :shrug:

:grin:  Just giving you some context for this blame you want to lay.


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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Cups]
    #14714535 - 07/04/11 07:30 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
Try harder. :shrug:

:grin:  Just giving you some context for this blame you want to lay.




I disagree.

:cheers:


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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14714627 - 07/04/11 08:19 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How can you disagree with context?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14714679 - 07/04/11 08:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:

Quote:

Kickle said:

That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.


Seems like a stretch to me to take one out of context section in one book of the Bible and say that it points to the creation of the book. Especially when referencing a book that has traveled through so many historical periods.

Did you take that from the King Jame's Version by chance?





It would seem like a stretch if there wasn't other instances of this theme; these two instances are found in the new testament, even jesus himself subscribes to the idea of submitting to governing authorities, who were by no means TREATING PEOPLE in a JUST MANNER...which ironically he supposedly preached.





Dude I think you are projecting blame pretty heavy here. Might makes right with or without the Bible pointing it out.





Then care to explain how or why these passages and many more are contextualized around submitting to authority?




I do not know of a social species that lacks a hierarchy of power, e.g., alpha male. And with any hierarchy of power comes dominance and submission. The Bible isn't the reason this hierarchy exists for other animals and I really doubt that it has anything to do with it's existence in humans either. Anyone can pick up on this and write their interpretation of it. I find Ecclesiastes interesting because the author seems to have been writing about wise ways to go about the world while simultaneously saying that if you don't want to, don't worry because it really doesn't matter. I find Jesus' approach to the power dynamic interesting too because he suggests there is a power greater than Caeser without denying Caesar's power.


You don't find it ironic that a man who preached to love one an other equally, never said anything negative about the existence of slavery????


What do you mean? Saying to treat others equally automatically condemns such imbalanced actions. There is nothing so equal as teaching all the same lesson. No need to single out the slaver because it isn't even close to the only example of inequality around.

Yet the very same man even promotes the idea of paying taxes???

Taxes serve a purpose and in a capable leaders hands they do a lot for a nation. Are you under the impression that taxes are inherently bad?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Kickle]
    #14719837 - 07/05/11 10:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

That passage was meant to show that the bible was created as a way to control slaves.


Seems like a stretch to me to take one out of context section in one book of the Bible and say that it points to the creation of the book. Especially when referencing a book that has traveled through so many historical periods.

Did you take that from the King Jame's Version by chance?





It would seem like a stretch if there wasn't other instances of this theme; these two instances are found in the new testament, even jesus himself subscribes to the idea of submitting to governing authorities, who were by no means TREATING PEOPLE in a JUST MANNER...which ironically he supposedly preached.





Dude I think you are projecting blame pretty heavy here. Might makes right with or without the Bible pointing it out.





Then care to explain how or why these passages and many more are contextualized around submitting to authority?




I do not know of a social species that lacks a hierarchy of power, e.g., alpha male. And with any hierarchy of power comes dominance and submission. The Bible isn't the reason this hierarchy exists for other animals and I really doubt that it has anything to do with it's existence in humans either.

I agree, I never argued that it was or wasn't rather that I suspect at the onset that the bible was created out of an intent to suppress and control a target group of slaves/servants/lower class poor.


Anyone can pick up on this and write their interpretation of it. I find Ecclesiastes interesting because the author seems to have been writing about wise ways to go about the world while simultaneously saying that if you don't want to, don't worry because it really doesn't matter.


To be honest, I find his philosophy as incoherent as the rest of the bible.


I find Jesus' approach to the power dynamic interesting too because he suggests there is a power greater than Caeser without denying Caesar's power.

Jesus never actually existed . Thats one of the foundational premises that my conclusion rests on.


You don't find it ironic that a man who preached to love one an other equally, never said anything negative about the existence of slavery????


What do you mean? Saying to treat others equally automatically condemns such imbalanced actions.

How is paying taxes to a autocratic, ruthless and violently suppressive form of government, AT ALL promoting equality?

:shrug:

What history books have you read??


There is nothing so equal as teaching all the same lesson. No need to single out the slaver because it isn't even close to the only example of inequality around.

Yet the very same man even promotes the idea of paying taxes???

Taxes serve a purpose and in a capable leaders hands they do a lot for a nation. Are you under the impression that taxes are inherently bad?

Ridiculous and unsubstantiated question. Capable leaders....:rofl2:

Have you ever read about the violent, oppressive nature of the roman empire? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PAYING TAXES TO AN EMPIRE THAT FORCES PEOPLE TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH IN THE NAME OF SPORTS/ENTERTAINMENT?








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OfflineAlphaFalfa
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Cups]
    #14719848 - 07/05/11 10:40 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cups said:
How can you disagree with context?





con·text/ˈkäntekst/Noun
1. The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
2. The parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.

READ THE DEFINITION, I am sure that you will figure out how someone can disagree with any given context.

Good luck.


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InvisibleCups
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #14728648 - 07/06/11 09:51 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AlphaFalfa said:
1. The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.


READ THE DEFINITION, I am sure that you will figure out how someone can disagree with any given context.





Unless you are claiming the information I supplied as context to be false I still don't see your point.


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Invisiblemetalfaith
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Re: Obey the King. [Re: Cups]
    #14729676 - 07/07/11 02:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Boy.. apparently I'm late to the party..
Quote:

Icelander said:
There's almost no Christians frequenting this forum.:lol:



I'm one of the few left! I won't leave!

Alright, so first i'm attempting to understand what alpha is saying.. I think Cup pretty much hit the nail on the head on most of the comments.
I'm just curious as to where alpha is getting these ideas.. the bible is unbelievably long compared to the super short few verses you pulled out. and they happen to be really, really far apart. Did you just google "how to flame the bible" or something? I'm confused...
But i'm sure now that I made myself known I'll get plenty more stuff coming. :cool:


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Re: Obey the King. [Re: metalfaith]
    #14729875 - 07/07/11 05:07 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So let me ask you?  Are you going to heaven? And if I die without accepting your Jesus as my savior will I then be condemned to burn for eternity by an all loving God?

And if so, what makes this different than slavery?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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