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Offlineresin
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Do aborts have more psilocybin??
    #1469877 - 04/18/03 12:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

By weight Do aborts have more psilocybin than a mushroom picked right before veil break? Where does the theorey that the aborts are more potent than their big brothers come from? Also On the dosage calculator it says that if you take a MAOI your dosage is cut in half...What are some MAOI's? Is choclate a strong enough MAOI to make you trip off 1/2 of your normal dose?? Thanks Alot


Edited by resin (04/18/03 12:13 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1469887 - 04/18/03 12:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

aborts are indeed more potent. i don't know why.

most MAOI's are Rx drugs. syrian rue is an herb that can be ordered online and used as an MAOI. definitely do some research on MAOI's first though. they're heavy stuff... can cause fatal reactions with certain foods, greatly intensify the effects of mushrooms, etc.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1470018 - 04/18/03 12:39 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The potency of a mushroom increases over time as well as the size of the mushroom. But they do not remain proportional to each other. Why this is, and this is my own theory: Since the chemical is ment to ward off animals from eating it in the first place, I believe that when just pinning it creates much psilocybin in order for it not too seem tastful choice to eat, especially for smaller animals. When it then becomes more mature, it already has enough for it not too seem a good choice to eat. I dont know if that made any sense but I drew a graph of what it might look like.



Also with the MAOI's, definately what mushmaster said, be careful. Also, its not the same kinda of trip so just to make you aware.


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1470069 - 04/18/03 12:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Since the chemical is ment to ward off animals from eating it in the first place

i don't think that's why it's there. if it is... it sure doesn't seem to be doing a good job  :wink:


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Offlineliftedoff420
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1470084 - 04/18/03 12:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

HAHAHAHAH

yes....its certainly not warding me away


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Offlineresin
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: liftedoff420]
    #1470098 - 04/18/03 01:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Thats kindawhat I was thinking. So at the pinning stage it has the most psilocybin per gram, and after veil break it has the least psilocybin per gram? How much potency are we talking about here? Is it a subtile difference like substrate or humidity would cause?


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: liftedoff420]
    #1470102 - 04/18/03 01:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, well we eat some fucked up shit. I mean look at us back in the cannibalism days.. yum yum. Plus I think humans would eat just about anything to get "fucked up".. for a variety of reasons. We are the only being that does this cuz we have nothing better to do. I mean, who else would drink gallons of water to flood their electrolytes? Sometimes I question why the human race is still alive.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1470130 - 04/18/03 01:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well you can't say that after the veil break it has the least/gram while at pinning it has the most/gram. I don't think any one has done a thurough investigation of potency at various stages. Most ppl just end up having mature mushrooms and aborts. Therefore, have come to the generalization that aborts are more potent/gram than mature shrooms are.

What do you mean by, "How much potency are we talking about here?" Potency difference? I don't know, but definately significant to be able to tell.

I have heard various things about substrate effecting potency, which I believe to be true, but am not sure which substrate is better than another. As for humidity, it should not effect potency to much, more so at which the speed a mushroom grows which is more effected by temperature. imo


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1470230 - 04/18/03 01:49 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Since the chemical is ment to ward off animals from eating it in the first place

i don't think that's why it's there. if it is... it sure doesn't seem to be doing a good job  :wink: 




I don't know man... if I was a fuckin goat and I walked by, ate some shrooms, and fuckin lost my mind for six hours I'd think twice about doing it again.

On topic, however, I think aborts are potent as fuck because my bro and I shared a 20 bag the only time I've shroomed, and he got to eat the little weird thing I now know of as an abort, and he tripped and I didn't.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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OfflineBigJohnson
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1470294 - 04/18/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


I don't know man... if I was a fuckin goat and I walked by, ate some shrooms, and fuckin lost my mind for six hours I'd think twice about doing it again.




And, if the herbavore wasn't smart enough to make the association, he'd soon fall prey to the cougar that was hiding behind the suddenly colorful and prismatic, dancing rocks :smile: 


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OfflineJunoCycle
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1470328 - 04/18/03 02:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Plus I think humans would eat just about anything to get "fucked up".. for a variety of reasons. We are the only being that does this cuz we have nothing better to do.


.........no... many different species use different things to get high... cats use catnip.... certain monkeys and elephants in Africa it a rotting fruit that cause a euphoric state for them..... (natural)drugs are here for a reason!!


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1470339 - 04/18/03 02:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

aborts are more potent because they have stunted in size, they produce the same amount of Psilocibin but becasue they are within a smaller fruit they give the appearance of increased potency. Potency is directly related to growing conditions and substrates used, a lot of people also think that strain has a big difference, well, if you grow B+ on dung and straw beleive me, you'll be smiling.


--------------------
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O, what panic's in thy breastie!
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Offlineresin
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: soochi]
    #1472218 - 04/19/03 02:16 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

All I fucts with is WBS,Dung, And Rubbermaids.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1472365 - 04/19/03 03:09 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

cats use catnip... lol something humans feed it. and I know animals use natural remidies.. but usually not to get f*ckin f*cked the f*ck up if you know what I mean.

"aborts are more potent because they have stunted in size, they produce the same amount of Psilocibin but becasue they are within a smaller fruit they give the appearance of increased potency"

not true.. mature fruits are more potent than aborts.. just not by weight.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: soochi]
    #1472546 - 04/19/03 05:10 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

> they produce the same amount of Psilocibin but because they are within a
>smaller fruit they give the appearance of increased potency

The person has yet to show up to deliver any scientific proof for this claim.


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Offlineministry
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Anno]
    #1472837 - 04/19/03 11:48 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

another approach is to consider energy consumed relitve to Psilocibin content. One logic to harvisting fruit before it begins sporlation (sp) is so that the fuel isn't burnt on a non psilocibin enhancing cycle of the mushroom.

Could it be more beneficial to create an environment that encourages aborts so that higher Psilocibin content by weight is achieved consistantly?



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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1472911 - 04/19/03 12:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

not true.. mature fruits are more potent than aborts.. just not by weight.

potency IS by weight.


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Offlineresin
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1473020 - 04/19/03 01:18 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Anno, Could you en-expensively do a test on aborts and mature fruits to see by weight which has more psilocybin?


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1473027 - 04/19/03 01:23 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

potency can be considered by mass or quantity of fruits as well.

Even if potency is universely considered by weight, I never said the potency of a mature mushroom is greater than of an abort, because that would then be incorrect. I said a mature fruit is more potent than an abort.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1473124 - 04/19/03 02:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

>Could you en-expensively do a test on aborts and mature fruits to see by weight
>which has more psilocybin?

I?d be glad to know.

The only thing that comes to my mind is

1. by consuming it and comparing the efects (rather unreliable)
2. by this: The_Measure_of_the_Mushroom



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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1473205 - 04/19/03 02:44 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

potency is definitely by weight.

if i take a 6 gram bag of mushrooms, all of similar potency, then split it into 2 piles... one of 2 grams, and one of 4 grams. is one pile more potent than the other? of course not.

otherwise it's called psiloc(yb)in content. this divided by weight... is what is known as potency.

the 4 gram bag has twice as much active tryptamines as the 2 gram bag, but also weighs twice as much. they are equal in potency.

large mature mushrooms contain more active tryptamines than little aborts, but weigh considerably more and are less potent.

you will trip more from 3 grams of aborts than 3 grams of mature fruit.


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1473332 - 04/19/03 03:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Could it be that the psilocybin continues to be produced in aborts, while the mushroom itself stops growing? You could test for this by seeing if the abort is more potent when it is picked at the same time as all the mature fruits, as opposed to picking it right when it has aborted.

Sort of interesting link slightly related to how psilocyin maybe evolved/ it's purpose:

Terence McKenna's "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution


--------------------
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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: mtglu]
    #1473391 - 04/19/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Hm... I never thought about it that way before


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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InvisibleSixCee
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1473507 - 04/19/03 05:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The potency of a mushroom increases over time as well as the size of the mushroom. But they do not remain proportional to each other. Why this is, and this is my own theory: Since the chemical is ment to ward off animals from eating it in the first place, I believe that when just pinning it creates much psilocybin in order for it not too seem tastful choice to eat, especially for smaller animals. When it then becomes more mature, it already has enough for it not too seem a good choice to eat. I dont know if that made any sense but I drew a graph of what it might look like.



Also with the MAOI's, definately what mushmaster said, be careful. Also, its not the same kinda of trip so just to make you aware.




Then why would certain strains have morep otency than others?


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: mtglu]
    #1473512 - 04/19/03 05:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Could it be that the psilocybin continues to be produced in aborts, while the mushroom itself stops growing? You could test for this by seeing if the abort is more potent when it is picked at the same time as all the mature fruits, as opposed to picking it right when it has aborted.

Sort of interesting link slightly related to how psilocyin maybe evolved/ it's purpose:

Terence McKenna's "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution




You answered your own question. The mushroom stopped growing.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: SixCee]
    #1473704 - 04/19/03 06:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"if i take a 6 gram bag of mushrooms, all of similar potency,"

all of what?.. all of the mushrooms?.. so ur saying each individual mushroom has a potency.. well that's what I've been saying all along. You are being too critical of this. I agree I may have not been using the word potency to its exact definition, but neither have you. The true definition is closer to: the quality or state of being potent, the ability or capacity to achieve or bring about a particular result. where potent means: 1 : having or wielding force, authority, or influence : POWERFUL 2 : achieving or bringing about a particular result : EFFECTIVE 3 a : chemically or medicinally effective. I havn't seen anything about it being per unit volume or weight.


"Then why would certain strains have morep otency than others? "

I never said anything about different strains and it's a completely different story. Different strains have more/less psiloc(yb)in content, such as different people have more/less intelligence.


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OfflinePooPs
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1473804 - 04/19/03 06:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

We need a fucking lab to sort this shit out:

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEeeeee.. help....


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1473817 - 04/19/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

how would you suggest we measure 'potency'?

i measure it as: weight of active constituent divided by standard dosage unit.

potency of mushrooms is expressed as psiloc(yb)in content\weight.

potency of marijuana is expressed as THC content by weight.

LSD blotter potency is expressed at LSD content\single blotter

potency of mescaline-bearing cacti as mescaline content\weight

every expression i have EVER seen of potency has been in these terms. when we speak of the potency of different mushrooms, it is expressed as % psilocybin, which is just psilocybin content\weight. (times 100).

these are two pages from erowid. the first is a comparison of the potency of different mescaline-bearing cacti. the second is a potency comparison of psilocybian mushroom species. note that in both cases, potency is expressed in % active component, which is a (mass active component\total mass) term.

Potency of Cacti
Potency of Mushrooms

i have not once seen potency ever expressed in any other terms. how do you propose that potency be measured, and can you give an example when its actually ever been used?

note that it is not the definition of potency that is in question here. we would both agree that potency refers to the relative strength of mushrooms, cannabis, etc. what is in question here is how we MEASURE potency.

just using total active component content as a measure of potency is flawed. if i've got two piles of mushrooms, each weighing 2 grams and having the same potency, does the potency double when i combine the two piles together?

using psilocybin content per mushroom is a little better, but still flawed. 'one mushroom' is not a standard dosage unit because mushrooms vary greatly in size. this is why very, very rarely do we express mushroom dosages in number of mushrooms eaten, but nearly always in grams.

sure you could express potency in other ways, but when we're talking about drugs and they're relative strength, no other measurement is very appropriate.

i'm not trying to convince you that your way of judging potency is wrong and this way is right, just that this way is better.

i feel a little silly now for going to such lengths to prove a point. i feel as though i am stating the obvious here. i hope this puts it to rest.


Edited by mushmaster (04/19/03 08:47 PM)


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Offlinemikejwill
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: liftedoff420]
    #1474115 - 04/19/03 09:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HAHAHAHAH

yes....its certainly not warding me away




not warding my freinds dog off either! He lost two chocolates that way lol.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1474126 - 04/19/03 09:22 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

haha stating the obvious indeed. I did not disagree that potency can be measure by weight, or that it is the norm. Most of the time that is how I measure it or talk about it. But I dont always follow the masses and sometimes express it in other terms. I'm fairly sure that I did express what I was regarding potency to be and how I was using it. No where does it say "potency = content/weight"

In most cases I agree that it is better to use the "normal" definition (per weight), especially when speaking of two different species. But since we where talking about the same one and comparing an abort and a mature shroom, I was referring to overall potency.. or better said as content/shroom.

To discontinue confusion, in the future I will refer to potency as content/weight. After all, we are a community of professionals and I would not want to misinform anyone.


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OfflineBigJohnson
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1474150 - 04/19/03 09:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Here's something one could do:

10 dry grams of mature, veiled fruits
10 dry grams of aborts

Grind them separately.

Perform an extraction on each 10 grams using the same amount of distilled water, boiling time, etc.

Filter and evaporate. Weigh resulting solids from each.

If aborts have, say, three times the PsiHCL, you will see a difference even with very crappy technique.


--------------------
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http://www.lp.org/issues/relegalize.html


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: BigJohnson]
    #1474154 - 04/19/03 09:32 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

is that someone you? have fun getting 10g dry of aborts


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OfflineBigJohnson
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1474177 - 04/19/03 09:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

is that someone you? have fun getting 10g dry of aborts 




Just like you, I only talk about mushroom growing. I'd never do anything illegal :smile:

I hear you on the aborts. If your technique and equipment were advanced, you wouldn't need more than a gram or two of each to do this. A good balance is a must, though.


--------------------
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http://www.lp.org/issues/relegalize.html


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Offlineresin
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: BigJohnson]
    #1474718 - 04/20/03 12:21 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I think that there are too many different variables. I mean when drying you might lose 5% potency on 1 shroom and 25% on another. So when you collected the aborts and mushies then the data might be inconclusive.
Yea and why would some species be more potent than others? Might it be because a different stronger predator eats it??


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1476592 - 04/20/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

How can one encourge the production of aborts?


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OfflineBigJohnson
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ministry]
    #1476614 - 04/20/03 04:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I'm pretty sure aborts are caused by lack of oxygen. I believe when oxygen is available during the formation of primordia but then becomes sparse, aborts form. But I'm sure someone here knows more about it than I do :smile:


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OfflineFallenThistle
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: JunoCycle]
    #1476846 - 04/20/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

.........no... many different species use different things to get high... cats use catnip.... certain monkeys and elephants in Africa it a rotting fruit that cause a euphoric state for them..... (natural)drugs are here for a reason!!

Most theorists agree that mushrooms are hallucinogenic to ward off animals that eat them. This applies for all hallucinogens as numerous studies have been done that show animals avoid psychedelic experiences. The reason hallucinogens are successful at warding off animals is because animals do not rapidly gain a tolerance and evolve for the drug to not be effective. ON the other hand, animals will rapidly adapt to toxins that will kill them - thus making the plants defense system unworkable.

In terms of human involvement, mushrooms have actually made an evolutionary leap in terms that they will never not be around. Because of human interest and farming, mushrooms have found a niche where they dont have to "fight" for survival - this of course is not the case in the wild. However mushrooms will never be extinct because of this change - same goes for farm animals etc - arguably dogs and cats have it best as they have ensured their species survival without the chance of being farmed for food (this only being the case in certain countries)

As to the comments about animals seeking intoxicants - this is true, animals love alcohol (fermented fruit) cocaine, opium, caffiene, etc - But they avoid hallucinogens and delieriants.



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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ministry]
    #1476944 - 04/20/03 06:36 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

aborts are caused by innsufficient nutrients, water, or air exchange. they are more potent than mature mushrooms, but contain less psilocybin overall. a flush full of aborts will be more potent than a flush of full-sized fruit, but will contain less magic total. aborts are to be prevented, not encouraged.


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OfflineBigJohnson
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: FallenThistle]
    #1477026 - 04/20/03 07:12 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:



Most theorists agree that mushrooms are hallucinogenic to ward off animals that eat them.  This applies for all hallucinogens as numerous studies have been done that show animals avoid psychedelic experiences.  The reason hallucinogens are successful at warding off animals is because animals do not rapidly gain a tolerance and evolve for the drug to not be effective.  ON the other hand, animals will rapidly adapt to toxins that will kill them - thus making the plants defense system unworkable. 

In terms of human involvement, mushrooms have actually made an evolutionary leap in terms that they will never not be around.  Because of human interest and farming, mushrooms have found a niche where they dont have to "fight" for survival - this of course is not the case in the wild.  However mushrooms will never be extinct because of this change - same goes for farm animals etc - arguably dogs and cats have it best as they have ensured their species survival without the chance of being farmed for food (this only being the case in certain countries)

As to the comments about animals seeking intoxicants - this is true, animals love alcohol (fermented fruit) cocaine, opium, caffiene, etc - But they avoid hallucinogens and delieriants.

   




Good shit :smile:


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: BigJohnson]
    #1477190 - 04/20/03 08:45 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

>Could you en-expensively do a test on aborts and mature fruits to see by weight
>which has more psilocybin?

I?d be glad to know.

The only thing that comes to my mind is

1. by consuming it and comparing the efects (rather unreliable)
2. by this: The_Measure_of_the_Mushroom





thank you anno.


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: fugu]
    #1477312 - 04/20/03 09:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

As Anno has suggested - this concept gets debated a fair bit and there is no evidence that aborts are any more potent than mature cubensis. The evidence Im aware of suggested that there was a bigger variation between flushes than anything else in alkaloid content.
Since the overall contention from the above is that the alkaloids are present to protect the mushroom from predation, wouldnt it make more sense that the alkaloids would increase production to protect the fruit up until the point of sporelation?


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1477329 - 04/20/03 10:02 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

since there isnt any hard data to go off of-i would like to think you are right blue meanie:)-and they look awesome!!!
Jake H :smile:


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: jakeholman]
    #1477384 - 04/20/03 10:16 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I think Gartz did suggest that alkaloid production decreased right before sporelation, but i don think this was definitive.


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1477438 - 04/20/03 10:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

debii have you got smtng to say.?


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Edited by fugu (04/20/03 10:32 PM)


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InvisibleFloydian
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1478759 - 04/21/03 12:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

and I know animals use natural remidies.. but usually not to get f*ckin f*cked the f*ck up if you know what I mean.





I've actually seen videos of the monkeys in Africa eating the rotten apples that was mentioned earlier. And one can tell just from looking at their behavior that this is no "natural remedy". Those monkeys were DRUNK man, and they were loving every second of it. Going back for more even.

And sure catnip is something we feed cats, but who is to say that they wouldnt seek it out if they were wild animals and catnip grew in their natural environment?

I also remember a few other examples of animals ingesting certain things in order to get high, as a human would, but cant remember them now.

So, I dont think its safe to say that humans are the only species that ingest chemicals to get high.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1478793 - 04/21/03 01:01 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

you will trip more from 3 grams of aborts than 3 grams of mature fruit.




This has been my experience also.

-Diploid


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Diploid]
    #1479299 - 04/21/03 04:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"The evidence Im aware of suggested that there was a bigger variation between flushes than anything else in alkaloid content." Im also interested in this. Which flush is most potent?


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1479309 - 04/21/03 04:53 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

the later ones, ime


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1479358 - 04/21/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Which flush is most potent?





My subjective observations have found the first to be least potent and the second to be the most potent.  Your mileage may vary... :tongue:

-Diploid
 


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2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1479922 - 04/21/03 08:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Potency is a range. Variable from individual to individual mushroom. If the range within a population is .1 to 2 percent. I would prefer to eat samples that contain larger quantities of individuals(aborts versus matures).

Would you rather have 1 lottery ticket or 100 lottery tickets. Each ticket has the same odds.



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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1482195 - 04/22/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

No offense, you are an even bigger idiot than I.


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1482207 - 04/22/03 01:46 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

No offense, you are an even bigger idiot than I. 


ex-squeeze me? who are you spouting at and why? :confused: 


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1483008 - 04/22/03 05:37 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

According to the literature, cultivated mushrooms can have a variability from mushroom to mushroom within the same flush. Each mushroom does not produce the same amount. If a flush contains some mushrooms that are lower in potency, and some that are higher in potency, then eating a set amount of weight that contains a higher number of INDIVIDUAL mushrooms will prove to be more potent in the long run.

A cubensis can be as much as 15+ dry grams each. This is three strong doses from one mushroom. If that mushroom is one of the weaker within the flush, you may end up with three weak doses. The same 15+ gram sample could contain 100 aborts. Some of which are weak, some that are strong, and some that are average potency.

COMMON SENSE would state that the abort sample of 15 + grams dry would be more likely to produce more potentcy, over time. JUST BECAUSE IT CONTAINS MORE MUSHROOMS, to yield the same weight.

Would you rather have 1 chance at high potency, or a 100 chances.

Potency within a species is a range!!!! The more samples you experience or test, the more accurate the AVERAGE potency determination is. I can assure you that NOT ENOUGH TESTING has been done, on a GLOBAL SCALE to determine even a remotely accurate scale of WILD CUBENSIS POTENCY, let alone AN ACCURATE DETERMINATION OF SECONDARY METABOLITE PRODUCTION AS IT RELATES TO GROWTH PHASES WITHIN THE SPECIES COMPLEX P. cubensis.

There are many more mushrooms that have been studied in this aspect. Secondary metabolite production and it's correlation to growth. The most common factor that has been linked is that NUTRIENT DEPRIVATION( the most limiting element, becomes limited and it triggers secondary metabolite production). This means that when the Mycelium colony starts getting nutrient deprived, it ceases to GROW, and initiates Fruiting and secondary metabolite production.

This is why on a petri plate, even mycelial colonies that won't fruit invitro, will START to blue. They have used up a single or multiple nutrients that are required for growth, and PRIMARY growth stops, and Secondary metabolite production INCREASES.

Secondary metabolite production begins, speeds up, reaches a peak, and stops. Just like the primary growth phase of the mycelium.


Secondary metabolites serve many possible purposes. Theories exist relating to chemical defense and counteradaptation, theories relating to toxicity avoidance within the mycelial network( trash can theories), and many others are being brought forward. The most common understanding is that no single theory can be excepted because each theory is inconsistent when viewed across the entire mycological, and botanical taxonomy. NOT EVERY SPECIES follows the exact same timeline in secondary metabolite production.

The most common trigger seems to be NUTRIENT DEPRIVATION as both a trigger for primary growth to slow/stop, and secondary metabolism to begin. But there are many exceptions to even that.

PROOF is in a MAJOR all incompassing study. Not a study on a single sample from a single flush, but a study that samples broadly.
Also a study needs to be done that samples individual mushrooms both mature and aborted, independently. Doing this with LOTS of mushrooms.

Simply measuring 5 grams of aborts againts five grams of matures, once or even twice will not be accurate.

Just know that you will have alot easier time eating MANY individuals in a sample of aborts, versus a sample of matures. Your CHANCES of eating a sample containing POTENT shrooms( at the high end of the RANGE for the species) increases with the number of individuals you consume. Smaller mushrooms mean MORE individuals per dried sample.

This common sense understanding EXPLAINS alot when you look at a species like the copelandia complex. These mushrooms are SMALL, and it takes many of them to make up a single dose. When you look at the LITERATURE on POTENCY range, they are not VERY POTENT compared to other SPECIES, but anyone who has eaten them will tell you they SEEM FAR MORE POTENT then the literature would IMPLY. One theory would be that which I am stating. SIZE matters. It matters because the more individuals you consume, the greater the chance of eating some that are at the HIGHER END of the potency RANGE.

Individual to individual, flush to flush, strain to strain, species to species VARIABILITY EXISTS.

My favorite cubensis strain for personal consumption is small in size, and large in pin sets. It produces wall to wall flushes of small cubensis. A five gram dry sample can contain 10+ mushrooms. When eating this strain in comparison to another strain, Isolated from the same PRINT, that produces fewer but larger mushrooms on the same substrate in the same environment, the smaller mushroom strain consitently delivers a stronger punch. BUT not every time. Sometimes the larger strain that is usually less then a single mushroom per dose, is HEAVIER in potency. That PARTICULAR MUSHROOM just happened to be at the TOP end of potency range, and yielded a heavy trip.

OVER TIME though the smaller mushrooms from the same print as the larger mushrooms are coming from, grown in identical conditions, is more potent consistently, but not EVERY TIME.






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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1484080 - 04/22/03 10:30 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Blah Blah Blah.. thanks for repeating yourself like 4 times. You had some really good information about primary and secondary growth that was interesting, but too bad it was just a side track and proved nothing. No offense but you need to learn how to accurately and concisely construct a paper.

?If a flush contains some mushrooms that are lower in potency, and some that are higher in potency, then eating a set amount of weight that contains a higher number of INDIVIDUAL mushrooms will prove to be more potent in the long run.?

If you are eating a set amount, there is no long run. If you are doing this over and over.. than things should average out and each one (small and large) should be equivalent.

?Your CHANCES of eating a sample containing POTENT shrooms( at the high end of the RANGE for the species) increases with the number of individuals you consume.?

As well does the chance of eating a less potent one, so wtf is your point?

?OVER TIME though the smaller mushrooms from the same print as the larger mushrooms are coming from, grown in identical conditions, is more potent consistently, but not EVERY TIME.?

Well, since I?m not even sure what that is trying to say I guess you have no conclusion. Smaller mushrooms (without any other variable) are more potent consistently? I would have to disagree. The smaller ones should more closely resemble the average potency.. the mean, a representation of the whole. Therefor you will have equal number of higher and lower potent mushrooms. In turn means, although smaller ones will be more consistent, they will not be consistently more potent.

As for consuming, I would have to agree that smaller mushrooms (more individual/mass), would have to be better because of the consistency. That way some people aren?t gett?n da ?bunk? sh*t while othas be in lala land (extreme example). But we shouldn?t be testing any type of potency by eating it anyway. That is not an accurate way of doing it. Doing an extraction, even of just five grams, should be sufficient in giving a rough estimation.

Although I agree this will not be accurate, if they are far enough apart one can make at least a good enough guess that one has greater potency than the other, which I think that?s really what we are after here. I agree things vary quit a bit, even when keeping as many variables constant and no conclusive evidence should be formulated from this, but only a good guess.

BTW.. wtf is capitalizing ?key? words.. you do a horrible job of that as well. The point of doing it is to have words jump out. If I see a shit load of random words jump out at me, that doesn?t help.

Ohh and another thing, ?Would you rather have 1 lottery ticket or 100 lottery tickets. Each ticket has the same odds.? That is absolutely THE WORST analogy I have ever seen.


Edited by ExtravagantDream (04/22/03 10:45 PM)


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1485274 - 04/23/03 06:27 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Have some respect mate! Teonan would probably know more about the biology of mushrooms than some academics and probably most of the users on this site. Your input was redudant so how can you critize?
I cant say that ive noticed a difference between aborts and mature fruits, but its been a while.
I'd have to argue there Teonan.
Certainly potency in terms of fruitbodies may hold sound for some species, but when you get woodlovers like Subaeruginosa where you eat three and lose all connection with reality, watch your friend's turn into blue demons and travel to jupiter, you realise that cubensis isnt really in any way potent. If i ate ten pans I would expect a significantly more interesting experience than off ten fresh cubensis fruits of medium size.
Id agree with your small stocky cubies being nicer in terms of potency - the big ones are usually stringie.
For those that give a fuck:
Heim and Hoffman's study of flush alkaloid contents in 1958 was by no means conclusive, it mearly suggested that the content of psilocin tended to descrease while psilocybin increase.
The most conclusive studies i am aware of were Gartz study that indicated that psilocin could be increased by adding tryptophan precursors to the substrate and Strivje and Demeijer found significant difference in potency between two spore-races ("amazonian and mexican")


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Edited by Zen Peddler (04/23/03 06:36 AM)


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1485972 - 04/23/03 02:09 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"just not by weight" - exactly. So you don't have to eat as much, hence the perceived notion that they are more potent.


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1488048 - 04/24/03 02:29 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If your wood lover's range is 1-2 percent goodies per dry gram, then YOU are right.  No mushroom that has a range of .5-1 percent is going to be stronger regardless of mushroom size. It could prove significant when the potency ranges overlap between two species. .5-1.5 and .75-1.75.

I was talking here about a single species and comparing small mushrooms or aborts to large mushrooms.  Comparing eating an equal dry weight sample of small mushrooms to large mushrooms.  A sample of 10 mushrooms to a sample of one mushroom, and stating that 10 chances will closer reach the AVERAGE potency within the range, and lessen your chances of EATING a low potency mushroom as your entire 5 gram sample. 

The one mushroom samples will result in highly variable potencies. From trip to trip.

It took a few posts but hopefully it makes some sense now.  :confused:

 


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1488228 - 04/24/03 03:36 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Doing an extraction, even of just five grams, should be sufficient in giving a rough estimation

No, that has about the same accuracy of eating them, you just have two sets of numbers to show other people, versus two different experiences to tell other people about.  More then a single sample of aborts and matures would need to be tested(not eaten of course) for it to be even remotely SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE, until proven wrong of course.

I managed to get through school just fine.  This is a opinion forum not a scientific journal.  If you want scientific journals entries you would have to pay me for them.

AND I WILL CAPITALIZE WHAT EVER WORDS I WANT. Be as Grammatically incorrect as I wan't.

A question was asked an opinion was given. :tongue:



 


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OfflineWahoo
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1488307 - 04/24/03 04:17 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Besides, wouldn't the extraction be comparing the weights of all water-soluble alkaloids, not just the one's we're concerned with? You could use the resulting ratio to extrapolate or compare relative psilocybin content, but only if you assume that the ratio of psilocybin to all other water-soluble alkaloids is the same in both mature fruits and aborts. I'm pretty sure the foundation of the "Aborts are more potent" argument states that said assumption is not true. So, I don't think a simple extraction would really answer this question either since it will extract more than just the materials we're interested in.

Seems to me that if one is concerned with potency, they'd want to generate the most psilocybin they possibly could, not the most "efficient" mushrooms. Unless you think that psilocybin content actually GOES DOWN as the mushroom matures, then the mature fruit will always have at least as much psilocybin as it would have had it aborted. And even if it _almost_ stops at an early stage, you've still got a little more magic despite a lot more fruit. Maybe if your mushrooms were so weak that ingesting enough to trip causes pain or something, then you'd actually consider causing aborts to get a "more potent" result. I doubt that is actually the case with anyone though.

And if you're like Teonan (and myself) and would like to have the most consistent experiences from one trip to the next, taking that idea a step farther would be grinding and making gel-caps. This is what my monkey does. He makes caps from each flush, grinding all the mushrooms together. Then he knows that all the pills are as close as you can get to "Average" for that flush. The potency of the caps varies with each strain/batch/flush, but there isn't much you can do about that except grinding up several batches/flushes/strains together, and that's probably taking the idea of constency a bit too far.


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1488316 - 04/24/03 04:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Why throw insults into a discussion...it serves no point in establishing a productive discussion.

Teonan-

I agree with Extravagant to the point that sampling of higher fruit/weight doses would only result in more consistant chemical levels/dose...not necessarily higher chemical levels/dose.


Wahoo-

Gas chromatography would allow both the identification and quanitification of all alkaloids present.

Joshua


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1488479 - 04/24/03 07:16 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"No, that has about the same accuracy of eating them, you just have two sets of numbers to show other people, versus two different experiences to tell other people about"

Not the same at all. Eating them and telling a story about it is totally subjective, even if you could compare them, based on setting and so on. A set of numbers is data and is arrived at by scientific procedures. Quite far different indeed.

Wahoo, one good reason for growing only aborts, given that they do contain more alkaloid content/weight (have higher potency), would be to be more efficient. Since you are only using a certain amount of nutrients to grow these aborts, much less than a full mature mushroom, you can grow many more (If it's done correctly). This way you would eventually have more 'magic' content overall, even when only growing the same amount of fruit weight.

Joshua, I agree insults serve no purpose. But I was not trying to insult anyone, only questioning the credibility of a person.


Edited by ExtravagantDream (04/24/03 07:18 AM)


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1489552 - 04/24/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

No offense, you are an even bigger idiot than I.





You have a strange way of questioning credibility.

Joshua


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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Joshua]
    #1492379 - 04/25/03 10:37 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)


'No offense, you are an even bigger idiot than I. '



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a productive post...
Someone should read the quality of their own posts before insulting others...


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1492710 - 04/25/03 12:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

hey we can't all have productive posts all the time. Besides, what is wrong with it? It is clear, concise, straight to the point. You do realize what I was responding to correct?

And the phrase, "You are an even bigger idiot than I," constitutes absolutely no direct harm. It is just how it is interpreted. Just means that if "you" feel that "I" am an idiot, then "you" are more so of one.


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OfflineAmanita_Dreamer
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1493299 - 04/25/03 03:16 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I do know that Roadkill is'nt a "idiot". Taking that into account....once The Hooligans asked HIM which He preffered. Considering that he has acsess to some of the best starins IN THE WORLD he said Cambodians are his favorite....And Cambos are TINY. The Hooligans did notice that the Cambos bruised ALOT bluer than Kreepers (in this case). Then would follow, I think, that because of the EXTREME blueing reaction there is a higher concentration of Psilocibin/Psilocin. Thats just my opinion .....I could be wrong.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Amanita_Dreamer]
    #1494092 - 04/25/03 07:52 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I think that it may just be the strain..coincidence that they are smaller. I do agree, cambos are some of my favorite cubensis


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1494447 - 04/25/03 11:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Yawn...


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1494513 - 04/26/03 12:15 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yawn...




"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What a productive post...
Someone should read the quality of their own posts before insulting others... "


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Offlineback_room_farmer
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1495653 - 04/26/03 01:07 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Ok, I have read through this post and there is some good and some redundant knowledge, and more then enough ego trips going on here. I can say that from my personal experimenting, I have taken several strains of cubies, and a cubie by anyother name is not the same if you catch my drift, I have noticed several differences, and I have also experimented with strait aborts. I can say that by wieght the aborts were much more intense, scarry even, and as for cubes, The creepers myself and a few other friends tried were the most potent I have yet to try from the cubies, and that is 8 strains so far. The only thing with the aborts was the fact that they came from different strains so the experiment wasn't "pure" however I can say that I went to the edge and back and I was lucky to come back. I give any aborts I get from a friend to the braver of heart then me now.
But just my two cents and please don't flame me over this post I am just trying to add to the actual experimental knowledge and not the academic knowledge as I have found some of that to be false.


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Offlineresin
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: back_room_farmer]
    #1495828 - 04/26/03 02:29 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I think tolerance is the biggest difference in potency that you will find. My buddy ate 3 medium shrooms and a good sized one. He also ate 18 aborts. He did not trip at all. It was about 4 dry grams. Me and my other buddy just ate 2 good sized ones (about 2-2 1/2 grams) and tripped hard. I had the best visuals ive ever seen. Do you think that by handeling the dry shrooms you loose potency? Is the only potency loss through bruising? (If it dosent bruise does that mean no potency loss??) What about flushes past 2nd? Josh said a buddy had a 10th flush! Would you think the potency increases as the flushes continue?


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InvisibleTerrapinSunrise
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1496084 - 04/26/03 04:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i ate 1.2g of aborts once and i tripped quite nicely... much stronger than 1.2g of mature mushrooms.


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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1496136 - 04/26/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Tolerance builds up very quickly when eating mushrooms, but also declines quickly. After about two weeks you should have no tolerance. I do know however that some ppl are naturally "immune." I'm not sure if that would be the right word to use, but some ppl need alot to really trip. For instance I need very little, only about 1.5 grams (of an "average" cubensis) while a few of my friends need upwards of 4 to 5g's. This goes for actual effects as well, some people are more visual and some people will only get visuals on a "hard" trip. Since alot of that is subjective, take it as so.

I do not believe properly dried shrooms will loose any potency by handling. If they were heated enough, some of the alkaloids would start breaking down.. probably also if they were hydrated and then just left laying out to deteriorate.

Bruising does not show the only loss in potency, since it is only oxidization and breaking down of one main chemical (psilocin.. or was it the other?.. always get mixed up). Handle them as little as possible when fresh, dry them properly to "cracker" dry and keep them in an air tight bag for prolonged storage. (the cooler the better.. and since i doubt you will be keeping them in the open, I'm not mentioning light.)

I can't answer your question on potency differences on successive flushes. I've never eaten any just from one specific flush.


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