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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: fugu]
    #1477312 - 04/20/03 09:53 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

As Anno has suggested - this concept gets debated a fair bit and there is no evidence that aborts are any more potent than mature cubensis. The evidence Im aware of suggested that there was a bigger variation between flushes than anything else in alkaloid content.
Since the overall contention from the above is that the alkaloids are present to protect the mushroom from predation, wouldnt it make more sense that the alkaloids would increase production to protect the fruit up until the point of sporelation?


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Offlinejakeholman
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1477329 - 04/20/03 10:02 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

since there isnt any hard data to go off of-i would like to think you are right blue meanie:)-and they look awesome!!!
Jake H :smile:


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The above statement is fictitious and for entertainment purposes only. I do not use or condone the use of illegal substances, nor do I use or condone the use of legal substances in an illegal manner.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: jakeholman]
    #1477384 - 04/20/03 10:16 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

I think Gartz did suggest that alkaloid production decreased right before sporelation, but i don think this was definitive.


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Offlinefugu
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1477438 - 04/20/03 10:30 PM (18 years, 6 months ago)

debii have you got smtng to say.?


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Edited by fugu (04/20/03 10:32 PM)


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InvisibleFloydian
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1478759 - 04/21/03 12:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

and I know animals use natural remidies.. but usually not to get f*ckin f*cked the f*ck up if you know what I mean.





I've actually seen videos of the monkeys in Africa eating the rotten apples that was mentioned earlier. And one can tell just from looking at their behavior that this is no "natural remedy". Those monkeys were DRUNK man, and they were loving every second of it. Going back for more even.

And sure catnip is something we feed cats, but who is to say that they wouldnt seek it out if they were wild animals and catnip grew in their natural environment?

I also remember a few other examples of animals ingesting certain things in order to get high, as a human would, but cant remember them now.

So, I dont think its safe to say that humans are the only species that ingest chemicals to get high.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1478793 - 04/21/03 01:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

you will trip more from 3 grams of aborts than 3 grams of mature fruit.




This has been my experience also.

-Diploid


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlineresin
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Diploid]
    #1479299 - 04/21/03 04:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"The evidence Im aware of suggested that there was a bigger variation between flushes than anything else in alkaloid content." Im also interested in this. Which flush is most potent?


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1479309 - 04/21/03 04:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

the later ones, ime


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: resin]
    #1479358 - 04/21/03 05:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Which flush is most potent?





My subjective observations have found the first to be least potent and the second to be the most potent.  Your mileage may vary... :tongue:

-Diploid
 


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1479922 - 04/21/03 08:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Potency is a range. Variable from individual to individual mushroom. If the range within a population is .1 to 2 percent. I would prefer to eat samples that contain larger quantities of individuals(aborts versus matures).

Would you rather have 1 lottery ticket or 100 lottery tickets. Each ticket has the same odds.



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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1482195 - 04/22/03 01:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

No offense, you are an even bigger idiot than I.


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1482207 - 04/22/03 01:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

No offense, you are an even bigger idiot than I. 


ex-squeeze me? who are you spouting at and why? :confused: 


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1483008 - 04/22/03 05:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

According to the literature, cultivated mushrooms can have a variability from mushroom to mushroom within the same flush. Each mushroom does not produce the same amount. If a flush contains some mushrooms that are lower in potency, and some that are higher in potency, then eating a set amount of weight that contains a higher number of INDIVIDUAL mushrooms will prove to be more potent in the long run.

A cubensis can be as much as 15+ dry grams each. This is three strong doses from one mushroom. If that mushroom is one of the weaker within the flush, you may end up with three weak doses. The same 15+ gram sample could contain 100 aborts. Some of which are weak, some that are strong, and some that are average potency.

COMMON SENSE would state that the abort sample of 15 + grams dry would be more likely to produce more potentcy, over time. JUST BECAUSE IT CONTAINS MORE MUSHROOMS, to yield the same weight.

Would you rather have 1 chance at high potency, or a 100 chances.

Potency within a species is a range!!!! The more samples you experience or test, the more accurate the AVERAGE potency determination is. I can assure you that NOT ENOUGH TESTING has been done, on a GLOBAL SCALE to determine even a remotely accurate scale of WILD CUBENSIS POTENCY, let alone AN ACCURATE DETERMINATION OF SECONDARY METABOLITE PRODUCTION AS IT RELATES TO GROWTH PHASES WITHIN THE SPECIES COMPLEX P. cubensis.

There are many more mushrooms that have been studied in this aspect. Secondary metabolite production and it's correlation to growth. The most common factor that has been linked is that NUTRIENT DEPRIVATION( the most limiting element, becomes limited and it triggers secondary metabolite production). This means that when the Mycelium colony starts getting nutrient deprived, it ceases to GROW, and initiates Fruiting and secondary metabolite production.

This is why on a petri plate, even mycelial colonies that won't fruit invitro, will START to blue. They have used up a single or multiple nutrients that are required for growth, and PRIMARY growth stops, and Secondary metabolite production INCREASES.

Secondary metabolite production begins, speeds up, reaches a peak, and stops. Just like the primary growth phase of the mycelium.


Secondary metabolites serve many possible purposes. Theories exist relating to chemical defense and counteradaptation, theories relating to toxicity avoidance within the mycelial network( trash can theories), and many others are being brought forward. The most common understanding is that no single theory can be excepted because each theory is inconsistent when viewed across the entire mycological, and botanical taxonomy. NOT EVERY SPECIES follows the exact same timeline in secondary metabolite production.

The most common trigger seems to be NUTRIENT DEPRIVATION as both a trigger for primary growth to slow/stop, and secondary metabolism to begin. But there are many exceptions to even that.

PROOF is in a MAJOR all incompassing study. Not a study on a single sample from a single flush, but a study that samples broadly.
Also a study needs to be done that samples individual mushrooms both mature and aborted, independently. Doing this with LOTS of mushrooms.

Simply measuring 5 grams of aborts againts five grams of matures, once or even twice will not be accurate.

Just know that you will have alot easier time eating MANY individuals in a sample of aborts, versus a sample of matures. Your CHANCES of eating a sample containing POTENT shrooms( at the high end of the RANGE for the species) increases with the number of individuals you consume. Smaller mushrooms mean MORE individuals per dried sample.

This common sense understanding EXPLAINS alot when you look at a species like the copelandia complex. These mushrooms are SMALL, and it takes many of them to make up a single dose. When you look at the LITERATURE on POTENCY range, they are not VERY POTENT compared to other SPECIES, but anyone who has eaten them will tell you they SEEM FAR MORE POTENT then the literature would IMPLY. One theory would be that which I am stating. SIZE matters. It matters because the more individuals you consume, the greater the chance of eating some that are at the HIGHER END of the potency RANGE.

Individual to individual, flush to flush, strain to strain, species to species VARIABILITY EXISTS.

My favorite cubensis strain for personal consumption is small in size, and large in pin sets. It produces wall to wall flushes of small cubensis. A five gram dry sample can contain 10+ mushrooms. When eating this strain in comparison to another strain, Isolated from the same PRINT, that produces fewer but larger mushrooms on the same substrate in the same environment, the smaller mushroom strain consitently delivers a stronger punch. BUT not every time. Sometimes the larger strain that is usually less then a single mushroom per dose, is HEAVIER in potency. That PARTICULAR MUSHROOM just happened to be at the TOP end of potency range, and yielded a heavy trip.

OVER TIME though the smaller mushrooms from the same print as the larger mushrooms are coming from, grown in identical conditions, is more potent consistently, but not EVERY TIME.






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OfflineExtravagantDream
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1484080 - 04/22/03 10:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Blah Blah Blah.. thanks for repeating yourself like 4 times. You had some really good information about primary and secondary growth that was interesting, but too bad it was just a side track and proved nothing. No offense but you need to learn how to accurately and concisely construct a paper.

?If a flush contains some mushrooms that are lower in potency, and some that are higher in potency, then eating a set amount of weight that contains a higher number of INDIVIDUAL mushrooms will prove to be more potent in the long run.?

If you are eating a set amount, there is no long run. If you are doing this over and over.. than things should average out and each one (small and large) should be equivalent.

?Your CHANCES of eating a sample containing POTENT shrooms( at the high end of the RANGE for the species) increases with the number of individuals you consume.?

As well does the chance of eating a less potent one, so wtf is your point?

?OVER TIME though the smaller mushrooms from the same print as the larger mushrooms are coming from, grown in identical conditions, is more potent consistently, but not EVERY TIME.?

Well, since I?m not even sure what that is trying to say I guess you have no conclusion. Smaller mushrooms (without any other variable) are more potent consistently? I would have to disagree. The smaller ones should more closely resemble the average potency.. the mean, a representation of the whole. Therefor you will have equal number of higher and lower potent mushrooms. In turn means, although smaller ones will be more consistent, they will not be consistently more potent.

As for consuming, I would have to agree that smaller mushrooms (more individual/mass), would have to be better because of the consistency. That way some people aren?t gett?n da ?bunk? sh*t while othas be in lala land (extreme example). But we shouldn?t be testing any type of potency by eating it anyway. That is not an accurate way of doing it. Doing an extraction, even of just five grams, should be sufficient in giving a rough estimation.

Although I agree this will not be accurate, if they are far enough apart one can make at least a good enough guess that one has greater potency than the other, which I think that?s really what we are after here. I agree things vary quit a bit, even when keeping as many variables constant and no conclusive evidence should be formulated from this, but only a good guess.

BTW.. wtf is capitalizing ?key? words.. you do a horrible job of that as well. The point of doing it is to have words jump out. If I see a shit load of random words jump out at me, that doesn?t help.

Ohh and another thing, ?Would you rather have 1 lottery ticket or 100 lottery tickets. Each ticket has the same odds.? That is absolutely THE WORST analogy I have ever seen.


Edited by ExtravagantDream (04/22/03 10:45 PM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1485274 - 04/23/03 06:27 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Have some respect mate! Teonan would probably know more about the biology of mushrooms than some academics and probably most of the users on this site. Your input was redudant so how can you critize?
I cant say that ive noticed a difference between aborts and mature fruits, but its been a while.
I'd have to argue there Teonan.
Certainly potency in terms of fruitbodies may hold sound for some species, but when you get woodlovers like Subaeruginosa where you eat three and lose all connection with reality, watch your friend's turn into blue demons and travel to jupiter, you realise that cubensis isnt really in any way potent. If i ate ten pans I would expect a significantly more interesting experience than off ten fresh cubensis fruits of medium size.
Id agree with your small stocky cubies being nicer in terms of potency - the big ones are usually stringie.
For those that give a fuck:
Heim and Hoffman's study of flush alkaloid contents in 1958 was by no means conclusive, it mearly suggested that the content of psilocin tended to descrease while psilocybin increase.
The most conclusive studies i am aware of were Gartz study that indicated that psilocin could be increased by adding tryptophan precursors to the substrate and Strivje and Demeijer found significant difference in potency between two spore-races ("amazonian and mexican")


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Edited by Zen Peddler (04/23/03 06:36 AM)


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Invisiblesoochi
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1485972 - 04/23/03 02:09 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

"just not by weight" - exactly. So you don't have to eat as much, hence the perceived notion that they are more potent.


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O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1488048 - 04/24/03 02:29 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

If your wood lover's range is 1-2 percent goodies per dry gram, then YOU are right.  No mushroom that has a range of .5-1 percent is going to be stronger regardless of mushroom size. It could prove significant when the potency ranges overlap between two species. .5-1.5 and .75-1.75.

I was talking here about a single species and comparing small mushrooms or aborts to large mushrooms.  Comparing eating an equal dry weight sample of small mushrooms to large mushrooms.  A sample of 10 mushrooms to a sample of one mushroom, and stating that 10 chances will closer reach the AVERAGE potency within the range, and lessen your chances of EATING a low potency mushroom as your entire 5 gram sample. 

The one mushroom samples will result in highly variable potencies. From trip to trip.

It took a few posts but hopefully it makes some sense now.  :confused:

 


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Anonymous

Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1488228 - 04/24/03 03:36 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Doing an extraction, even of just five grams, should be sufficient in giving a rough estimation

No, that has about the same accuracy of eating them, you just have two sets of numbers to show other people, versus two different experiences to tell other people about.  More then a single sample of aborts and matures would need to be tested(not eaten of course) for it to be even remotely SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE, until proven wrong of course.

I managed to get through school just fine.  This is a opinion forum not a scientific journal.  If you want scientific journals entries you would have to pay me for them.

AND I WILL CAPITALIZE WHAT EVER WORDS I WANT. Be as Grammatically incorrect as I wan't.

A question was asked an opinion was given. :tongue:



 


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OfflineWahoo
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ]
    #1488307 - 04/24/03 04:17 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Besides, wouldn't the extraction be comparing the weights of all water-soluble alkaloids, not just the one's we're concerned with? You could use the resulting ratio to extrapolate or compare relative psilocybin content, but only if you assume that the ratio of psilocybin to all other water-soluble alkaloids is the same in both mature fruits and aborts. I'm pretty sure the foundation of the "Aborts are more potent" argument states that said assumption is not true. So, I don't think a simple extraction would really answer this question either since it will extract more than just the materials we're interested in.

Seems to me that if one is concerned with potency, they'd want to generate the most psilocybin they possibly could, not the most "efficient" mushrooms. Unless you think that psilocybin content actually GOES DOWN as the mushroom matures, then the mature fruit will always have at least as much psilocybin as it would have had it aborted. And even if it _almost_ stops at an early stage, you've still got a little more magic despite a lot more fruit. Maybe if your mushrooms were so weak that ingesting enough to trip causes pain or something, then you'd actually consider causing aborts to get a "more potent" result. I doubt that is actually the case with anyone though.

And if you're like Teonan (and myself) and would like to have the most consistent experiences from one trip to the next, taking that idea a step farther would be grinding and making gel-caps. This is what my monkey does. He makes caps from each flush, grinding all the mushrooms together. Then he knows that all the pills are as close as you can get to "Average" for that flush. The potency of the caps varies with each strain/batch/flush, but there isn't much you can do about that except grinding up several batches/flushes/strains together, and that's probably taking the idea of constency a bit too far.


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InvisibleJoshua
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Re: Do aborts have more psilocybin?? [Re: ExtravagantDream]
    #1488316 - 04/24/03 04:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Why throw insults into a discussion...it serves no point in establishing a productive discussion.

Teonan-

I agree with Extravagant to the point that sampling of higher fruit/weight doses would only result in more consistant chemical levels/dose...not necessarily higher chemical levels/dose.


Wahoo-

Gas chromatography would allow both the identification and quanitification of all alkaloids present.

Joshua


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