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 Darwin23
INFJ
 
Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 3,282
Loc: United States 
Last seen: 12 days, 14 hours
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 Re: Swedish Preschool Eliminating Gender Roles  [Re: LunarEclipse]
#14684916 - 06/28/11 07:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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I might have to bow out a little bit on this one. I think I'm running on an emotional response.
My fear is that these teachers will be overzealous and try to force the children into not following gender roles at all, meaning when they see a girl playing house and they'll ask (direct) her "Are you sure you don't want to play with those building blocks?" I just don't want kids being forced into gender roles in an attempt to not force them into gender roles. I've seen it happen before. There was a hippie couple on wife swap that forced their son into acting like a girl in a desperate attempt to free him from gender roles. They claimed it was all his choice, but coaching from the mom was obvious. It's the same thing with Jazz Witterick. His parents want him to be raised with no pressure to be either gender. Yet he looks, acts and talks like a girl. If there was truly no pressure to be gendered, wouldn't it make sense that he'd be partly gendered female and partly gendered male? That he'd go play sports and be rough but express his feelings as well?
In a nut shell, I'm scared of this school because I'm afraid the teachers will be like Jazz Witterick's parents.
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Take a look at my journal
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 Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Swedish Preschool Eliminating Gender Roles [Re: Darwin23]
#14684964 - 06/28/11 08:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said:
I might have to bow out a little bit on this one. I think I'm running on an emotional response.
It is very mature of you to accept and recognize this..it is very rare indeed for a person to do that in this forum.  
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
My fear is that these teachers will be overzealous and try to force the children into not following gender roles at all, meaning when they see a girl playing house and they'll ask (direct) her "Are you sure you don't want to play with those building blocks?" I just don't want kids being forced into gender roles in an attempt to not force them into gender roles.
It doesn't seem like that's what this school is doing..to me, it just seems like they're merely trying to prevent children from being brainwashed into following certain gender roles.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
I've seen it happen before. There was a hippie couple on wife swap that forced their son into acting like a girl in a desperate attempt to free him from gender roles. They claimed it was all his choice, but coaching from the mom was obvious.
Yeah, IMO encouraging a boy to follow a traditionally female gender role is essentially the same thing as encouraging him to follow a traditionally male gender role..parents should just let their kids be whomever they want, without forcing them to follow any type of gender role. IMO, the school is not forcing anything on their kids, but rather, it's exposing them to a lifestyle where traditional gender roles are nonexistent..this seems to be a good way to allow them to choose how they wish to behave, without forcing any sort of gender-based social expectations on them.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
It's the same thing with Jazz Witterick. His parents want him to be raised with no pressure to be either gender. Yet he looks, acts and talks like a girl. If there was truly no pressure to be gendered, wouldn't it make sense that he'd be partly gendered female and partly gendered male? That he'd go play sports and be rough but express his feelings as well?
It's possible that he is a boy who just so happens to naturally behave like an individual who follows the traditional female gender role, and that he was not conditioned to behave in that manner. I can't say for sure, though, because I don't know how his parents raised him. 
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Darwin23 said:
In a nut shell, I'm scared of this school because I'm afraid the teachers will be like Jazz Witterick's parents.
What kind of pressure did his parents put on him, and what makes you think that this school is putting, or is going to put similar pressures on their students?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum
Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
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Re: Swedish Preschool Eliminating Gender Roles [Re: Darwin23]
#14685410 - 06/28/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said:
I might have to bow out a little bit on this one. I think I'm running on an emotional response.
My fear is that these teachers will be overzealous and try to force the children into not following gender roles at all, meaning when they see a girl playing house and they'll ask (direct) her "Are you sure you don't want to play with those building blocks?" I just don't want kids being forced into gender roles in an attempt to not force them into gender roles.
A good point, while I disagree with much of the other things you have said in this thread I agree with you here. Moreover I think that trying to "engineer" kids socially misses the point that children organize themselves socially as a matter of biology. We should give them more of a role and more of a choice in these things, which is kind of the whole point, I think. Its prudent to have gender be dynamic and fluid right now. The only thing I would want to see in a school that (hypothetical) children of mine would go to would just be open-mindedness about gender and sexuality, so however my kid wanted to be a crazy little ball of confused problems s/he would have freedom.
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There was a hippie couple on wife swap that forced their son into acting like a girl in a desperate attempt to free him from gender roles. They claimed it was all his choice, but coaching from the mom was obvious. It's the same thing with Jazz Witterick. His parents want him to be raised with no pressure to be either gender. Yet he looks, acts and talks like a girl.
I heard from someone in show business that wife swap was completely scripted. I wouldn't believe what you saw. I was meant to agitate you so you wouldn't change the channel.
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Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
- Thomas Paine
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: Swedish Preschool Eliminating Gender Roles [Re: Poid]
#14685791 - 06/28/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
I've seen it happen before. There was a hippie couple on wife swap that forced their son into acting like a girl in a desperate attempt to free him from gender roles. They claimed it was all his choice, but coaching from the mom was obvious.
Yeah, IMO encouraging a boy to follow a traditionally female gender role is essentially the same thing as encouraging him to follow a traditionally male gender role..parents should just let their kids be whomever they want, without forcing them to follow any type of gender role. IMO, the school is not forcing anything on their kids, but rather, it's exposing them to a lifestyle where traditional gender roles are nonexistent..this seems to be a good way to allow them to choose how they wish to behave, without forcing any sort of gender-based social expectations on them.
I highly agree with this. Something I see far more often than poor children starved of a gender are poor children expected to want to roll around in the mud and get buff like Ah-nold when they'd prefer to play "House" and put on makeup. It happens more often than you think.
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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.
Edited by Tchan909 (06/28/11 11:44 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Yup, poor kids. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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AlphaFalfa
imagine
Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 3,857
Loc: 3 Seconds Ago. 
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Re: Swedish Preschool Eliminating Gender Roles [Re: Poid]
#14688854 - 06/28/11 09:45 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Darwin23 said:
...in fact that number even translates to other animals...
Many animals are either gay, or bisexual..I don't see, though, why the sexuality of other animals is relevant to this discussion, which is regarding human nature.
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Darwin23 said:
Don't you think it would be kind of fucked up if 90% of the kids in preschool were Hispanic, yet all of the books had white or black protagonists?
Sounds just like the preschool I went to. 
This analogy doesn't quite fit..the kids in this Swedish school are just being taught that, contrary to most cultures' opinions, a person's sex isn't as important as who they truly are inside. As for preschools with a predominantly Hispanic student body, that their books only have either white or black protagonists is merely incidental..they are not trying to teach kids a lesson by only showing them books that have white or black protagonists in the same way that this Swedish school is trying to teach their kids a lesson by mostly showing them books that center around acceptance of LGBT individuals.
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Darwin23 said:
Biologically we are predisposed to being straight. If we weren't, humanity wouldn't continue.
That's not true..humanity could still continue if we were biologically predisposed to being bisexual.
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Darwin23 said:
Did you read the full post? I'm fine with them showing books with all different sexualities as long as straight is represented. A majority of the kids will be straight because we don't choose our sexualities. Gay children of religious families struggle for years with their sexualities before finally coming out. Many of them desperately desperately want to be straight, but they can't. They don't choose to be disowned by their families or to be hated by the many bigots that live in our society. I want those gay kids to be told "gay is okay" just like I want the straight kids in this preschool to be told "straight is okay."
Quote where it says in that article that they're trying to teach their kids that being straight is not OK.
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Darwin23 said:
The third question is assuming I hate other cultures, I don't. I'm all for supporting other cultures, but if they're damaging cultures, I'm not supporting them.
What evidence do you have that this school is damaging their kids?
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Darwin23 said:
South Korea has the highest suicide rate in the world because children are told they must meet these ridiculous standards or they will bring shame on the family. In other words these Koreans are feeling that there is something wrong with them and so they must kill themselves. The same way American homosexuals feel there is something wrong with themselves before they kill themselves. The same way these straight kids are going to feel when they're told there is something wrong with them.
I read the entire article..nowhere did it say that they're telling their straight kids that there's something wrong with them. In fact, sexuality is not even explicitly mentioned..all they want is to avoid teaching their kids to follow the traditional gender roles, they're not trying to engineer their kids' sexuality.
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Darwin23 said:
I'm not angry because they have a different culture, I'm angry because they're going to make kids who are straight feel like shit, by not telling them heterosexuality is okay.
So, by them not explicitly mentioning that heterosexuality is OK (it was never mentioned in the article that they don't mention that heterosexuality is OK, BTW), this will cause straight kids to feel like shit about being heterosexual? How do you figure? The school is not explicitly discouraging heterosexuality, I don't know where you're getting this.
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Darwin23 said:
Quote:
Poid Said:
Where in the article does it say this? Are you OK with how our culture tells LGBT people that there is something wrong with them?
The quote from the article that I posted says it.
"Nearly all the children's books deal with homosexual couples, single parents or adopted children. There are no Snow White, Cinderella or other classic fairy tales seen as cementing stereotypes."
Key word "nearly"..just because most of the books they show their kids don't deal with heterosexuality, doesn't mean they're saying there's something wrong with heterosexuality. This is an assumption on your part.
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Darwin23 said:
It goes back to what I said a second ago. It would be wrong if 90% of the preschool was Hispanic yet almost all of the books had white or black protagonists. That's sending a message to the Hispanics, there is something wrong with you, you're weird and abnormal.
No it isn't..I grew up in schools that didn't have any books with Hispanic protagonists (I'm Mexican), and I didn't get the message that there was something wrong, weird, or abnormal about me. Back then, I didn't even see race as being that important, and I still don't.
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Darwin23 said:
Quote:
Poid Said
What makes you think that the suicide rate among these kids will be higher than the general poopulation? 
The same reason there are higher suicide rates among members of the LGBT community then of the straight community.
The difference here is that members of the LGBT community are often harassed, ostracized, belittled, etc. by others for being what they are..there is nothing in that article which explicitly states that straight children are being either harassed, ostracized, or belittled for being straight.
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Darwin23 said:
The books are geared towards LGBT kids, not straight kids. When I say that, I don't mean the books should be geared towards only straight kids, but heterosexual kids do need representation.
There is nothing in that article which states that they don't show their kids books which include heterosexual couples..all it says is that nearly all their books deal with homosexual couples, single parents, or adopted children. That they don't show books which push the traditional female stereotype (like Snow White or Cinderella) is by no means an indication that they don't show books which include heterosexual couples.
This school is trying to erase gender stereotypes, that is all..it doesn't seem like they're pushing certain sexualities on their children, most people would find that to be highly inappropriate because they don't believe that children are ready to learn about sexuality. This school believes that showing books with homosexual couples will help them accept that homosexuality is normal, and OK..I don't think they're showing them those books in order to to brainwash them to become homosexuals.
Show me a quote from that article which explicitly states that, instead of obliterating traditional gender roles from their kids' minds, this school's goal is to adjust their sexual preferences.
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Poid said:
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
However around 90% of the world's population is straight...
Source?
Even if that's true, how do you know that's not mostly due to culture (as opposed to being due to people's inherent nature)? It's possible that people hide their true sexual nature so as to avoid being ostracized by others.
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Darwin23 said:
...in fact that number even translates to other animals...
Many animals are either gay, or bisexual..I don't see, though, why the sexuality of other animals is relevant to this discussion, which is regarding human nature.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
Don't you think it would be kind of fucked up if 90% of the kids in preschool were Hispanic, yet all of the books had white or black protagonists?
Sounds just like the preschool I went to.
This analogy doesn't quite fit..the kids in this Swedish school are just being taught that, contrary to most cultures' opinions, a person's sex isn't as important as who they truly are inside. As for preschools with a predominantly Hispanic student body, that their books only have either white or black protagonists is merely incidental..they are not trying to teach kids a lesson by only showing them books that have white or black protagonists in the same way that this Swedish school is trying to teach their kids a lesson by mostly showing them books that center around acceptance of LGBT individuals.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
Biologically we are predisposed to being straight. If we weren't, humanity wouldn't continue.
That's not true..humanity could still continue if we were biologically predisposed to being bisexual.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
Did you read the full post? I'm fine with them showing books with all different sexualities as long as straight is represented. A majority of the kids will be straight because we don't choose our sexualities. Gay children of religious families struggle for years with their sexualities before finally coming out. Many of them desperately desperately want to be straight, but they can't. They don't choose to be disowned by their families or to be hated by the many bigots that live in our society. I want those gay kids to be told "gay is okay" just like I want the straight kids in this preschool to be told "straight is okay."
Quote where it says in that article that they're trying to teach their kids that being straight is not OK.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
The third question is assuming I hate other cultures, I don't. I'm all for supporting other cultures, but if they're damaging cultures, I'm not supporting them.
What evidence do you have that this school is damaging their kids?
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
South Korea has the highest suicide rate in the world because children are told they must meet these ridiculous standards or they will bring shame on the family. In other words these Koreans are feeling that there is something wrong with them and so they must kill themselves. The same way American homosexuals feel there is something wrong with themselves before they kill themselves. The same way these straight kids are going to feel when they're told there is something wrong with them.
I read the entire article..nowhere did it say that they're telling their straight kids that there's something wrong with them. In fact, sexuality is not even explicitly mentioned..all they want is to avoid teaching their kids to follow the traditional gender roles, they're not trying to engineer their kids' sexuality.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
I'm not angry because they have a different culture, I'm angry because they're going to make kids who are straight feel like shit, by not telling them heterosexuality is okay.
So, by them not explicitly mentioning that heterosexuality is OK (it was never mentioned in the article that they don't mention that heterosexuality is OK, BTW), this will cause straight kids to feel like shit about being heterosexual? How do you figure? The school is not explicitly discouraging heterosexuality, I don't know where you're getting this.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
Quote:
Poid Said:
Where in the article does it say this? Are you OK with how our culture tells LGBT people that there is something wrong with them?
The quote from the article that I posted says it.
"Nearly all the children's books deal with homosexual couples, single parents or adopted children. There are no Snow White, Cinderella or other classic fairy tales seen as cementing stereotypes."
Key word "nearly"..just because most of the books they show their kids don't deal with heterosexuality, doesn't mean they're saying there's something wrong with heterosexuality. This is an assumption on your part.
Quote:
Darwin23 said:
It goes back to what I said a second ago. It would be wrong if 90% of the preschool was Hispanic yet almost all of the books had white or black protagonists. That's sending a message to the Hispanics, there is something wrong with you, you're weird and abnormal.
No it isn't..I grew up in schools that didn't have any books with Hispanic protagonists (I'm Mexican), and I didn't get the message that there was something wrong, weird, or abnormal about me. Back then, I didn't even see race as being that important, and I still don't.
Well put.
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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...
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tokinman21
Stranger
Registered: 07/28/10
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Re: Swedish Preschool Eliminating Gender Roles [Re: Darwin23]
#14691242 - 06/29/11 11:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said:
I might have to bow out a little bit on this one. I think I'm running on an emotional response.
My fear is that these teachers will be overzealous and try to force the children into not following gender roles at all, meaning when they see a girl playing house and they'll ask (direct) her "Are you sure you don't want to play with those building blocks?" I just don't want kids being forced into gender roles in an attempt to not force them into gender roles. I've seen it happen before. There was a hippie couple on wife swap that forced their son into acting like a girl in a desperate attempt to free him from gender roles. They claimed it was all his choice, but coaching from the mom was obvious. It's the same thing with Jazz Witterick. His parents want him to be raised with no pressure to be either gender. Yet he looks, acts and talks like a girl. If there was truly no pressure to be gendered, wouldn't it make sense that he'd be partly gendered female and partly gendered male? That he'd go play sports and be rough but express his feelings as well?
In a nut shell, I'm scared of this school because I'm afraid the teachers will be like Jazz Witterick's parents.
Bingo. I have to go to do some cleaning and then go to work, but at some point I'll find those studies, I was recently reading a book on this called "Why Gender Matters" that was basically all about the inherent biological differences between males and females.
Edited by tokinman21 (06/29/11 11:33 AM)
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Swedish Preschool Eliminating Gender Roles [Re: Darwin23]
#14692350 - 06/29/11 03:30 PM (12 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darwin23 said:
they're fucking with delicate minds of children.
Maybe they're just messing with yours. 
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And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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