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Offline4896744
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The Struggle
    #14660332 - 06/23/11 02:39 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

We all face the constant struggle of trying to create meaning for ourselves. Every thing we strive for is something we view as meaningful. By viewing things as meaningful we are attempting to deny our inherent lack of meaning and unavoidable demise. It is too much for us to accept. We all feel too special to accept it.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

Edited by iThink (06/23/11 02:39 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
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Re: The Struggle [Re: 4896744]
    #14660558 - 06/23/11 03:19 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Isn't meaning just an anthropomorphized concept of 'cause and effect' ?
And why would humans not have any influence on this ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinetimelapses
Life in free form
Male


Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 4,600
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Re: The Struggle [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14660687 - 06/23/11 03:46 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, your avators look so simular.  But to the point why put such thought in it.  The here and now, keep it simple and enjoy it.  You can have your beliefs, opionions, and truthful experiences, but learn to enjoy the meantime during this life and quest for growth experience without over anaylyzing it IMO.


--------------------

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Struggle [Re: timelapses]
    #14660734 - 06/23/11 03:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"But to the point why put such thought in it."
Because I go so far as to see meaning as 'cause and effect', what is as inherent in an interactive environment as it is within us while we interact.
Most users here deny the inherence of meaning anywhere.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetimelapses
Life in free form
Male


Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 4,600
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Re: The Struggle [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14660762 - 06/23/11 04:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I find meaning in music, poetry, writing, and intoxication and many different substances.  I love creativity and depths of expression and the bounds of human experience.

But I am the fool, like to experience the limits of extremes of human experience, positivey and creativity and depths of oblivion.  Celebration of the Lizard King.

Ha, ha, ha, the depths of the human experience and still such a sliver of it.


--------------------

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Invisibleunam sanctum
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Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 6,703
Re: The Struggle [Re: 4896744]
    #14661116 - 06/23/11 05:12 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
We all face the constant struggle of trying to create meaning for ourselves. Every thing we strive for is something we view as meaningful. By viewing things as meaningful we are attempting to deny our inherent lack of meaning and unavoidable demise. It is too much for us to accept. We all feel too special to accept it.




Why do you think that our death (demise) necessarily dictates an inherent lack of meaning?  Actions create legacies and then myths which live on through time. And even if you have no belief in the after life, then the worst case it it's all over and nothing else happens. Silence and peace for eternity doesn't sound too bad right now.

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Offlinenoobieman
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Registered: 05/03/10
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Re: The Struggle [Re: unam sanctum]
    #14661171 - 06/23/11 05:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Any meaning our existence has in physical-land would be incomprehensible compared with the meaning we might have in nonphysical-land. The presumption is that in the hierarchy of meaning, nonphysical-land holds the more accurate grasp of WTF is going on down here.

The struggle, IMHO is the development of skills and tools that enable us to get a taste of what things mean outside our physical perspective.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: The Struggle [Re: unam sanctum]
    #14661179 - 06/23/11 05:26 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

unam sanctum said:
Quote:

iThink said:
We all face the constant struggle of trying to create meaning for ourselves. Every thing we strive for is something we view as meaningful. By viewing things as meaningful we are attempting to deny our inherent lack of meaning and unavoidable demise. It is too much for us to accept. We all feel too special to accept it.




Why do you think that our death (demise) necessarily dictates an inherent lack of meaning?  Actions create legacies and then myths which live on through time. And even if you have no belief in the after life, then the worst case it it's all over and nothing else happens. Silence and peace for eternity doesn't sound too bad right now.




Agreed. Lack of meaning to life does not necessarily follow from the fact that we die.

Actually, I think life is pretty sweet. The struggle is the best part. If life is easy then you're doing it wrong.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: The Struggle [Re: noobieman]
    #14661189 - 06/23/11 05:28 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

noobieman said:
Any meaning our existence has in physical-land would be incomprehensible compared with the meaning we might have in nonphysical-land. The presumption is that in the hierarchy of meaning, nonphysical-land holds the more accurate grasp of WTF is going on down here.

The struggle, IMHO is the development of skills and tools that enable us to get a taste of what things mean outside our physical perspective.




Your positing that the nonphysical is somehow above the physical is just as fallacious as the positing that the physical is somehow above the nonphysical.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Offline4896744
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Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
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Re: The Struggle [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14661314 - 06/23/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

unam sanctum said:
Quote:

iThink said:
We all face the constant struggle of trying to create meaning for ourselves. Every thing we strive for is something we view as meaningful. By viewing things as meaningful we are attempting to deny our inherent lack of meaning and unavoidable demise. It is too much for us to accept. We all feel too special to accept it.




Why do you think that our death (demise) necessarily dictates an inherent lack of meaning?  Actions create legacies and then myths which live on through time. And even if you have no belief in the after life, then the worst case it it's all over and nothing else happens. Silence and peace for eternity doesn't sound too bad right now.




Agreed. Lack of meaning to life does not necessarily follow from the fact that we die.

Actually, I think life is pretty sweet. The struggle is the best part. If life is easy then you're doing it wrong.




Nothing matters once your are dead. You can no longer experience. Everything that you will do in life will be meaningless once you are dead as far as you are concerned. Even if you live on as a "legend" in society, that too will be quickly wiped out when humans become extinct. The only "meaning" that can be found is that which humans toss around subjectively in order to make themselves feel special.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offline4896744
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Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
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Re: The Struggle [Re: noobieman]
    #14661316 - 06/23/11 05:52 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

noobieman said:
Any meaning our existence has in physical-land would be incomprehensible compared with the meaning we might have in nonphysical-land. The presumption is that in the hierarchy of meaning, nonphysical-land holds the more accurate grasp of WTF is going on down here.

The struggle, IMHO is the development of skills and tools that enable us to get a taste of what things mean outside our physical perspective.




What makes you think there is anything other than the physical?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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Offline4896744
Small Town Girl
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Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
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Re: The Struggle [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14661324 - 06/23/11 05:54 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Isn't meaning just an anthropomorphized concept of 'cause and effect' ?
And why would humans not have any influence on this ?




How is meaning an anthropomorphic concept of "cause and effect"?


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
Male


Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
Re: The Struggle [Re: 4896744]
    #14661337 - 06/23/11 05:56 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

unam sanctum said:
Quote:

iThink said:
We all face the constant struggle of trying to create meaning for ourselves. Every thing we strive for is something we view as meaningful. By viewing things as meaningful we are attempting to deny our inherent lack of meaning and unavoidable demise. It is too much for us to accept. We all feel too special to accept it.




Why do you think that our death (demise) necessarily dictates an inherent lack of meaning?  Actions create legacies and then myths which live on through time. And even if you have no belief in the after life, then the worst case it it's all over and nothing else happens. Silence and peace for eternity doesn't sound too bad right now.




Agreed. Lack of meaning to life does not necessarily follow from the fact that we die.

Actually, I think life is pretty sweet. The struggle is the best part. If life is easy then you're doing it wrong.




Nothing matters once your are dead. You can no longer experience. Everything that you will do in life will be meaningless once you are dead as far as you are concerned. Even if you live on as a "legend" in society, that too will be quickly wiped out when humans become extinct. The only "meaning" that can be found is that which humans toss around subjectively in order to make themselves feel special.




Instead of viewing life as meaningless try viewing it as entirely full of meaning. That way you can justify responding to my posts or even creating posts of your own. As it stands now you are essentially contradicting yourself in your actions.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Offline4896744
Small Town Girl
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Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
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Re: The Struggle [Re: timelapses]
    #14661338 - 06/23/11 05:57 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

timelapses said:
I find meaning in music, poetry, writing, and intoxication and many different substances.  I love creativity and depths of expression and the bounds of human experience.

But I am the fool, like to experience the limits of extremes of human experience, positivey and creativity and depths of oblivion.  Celebration of the Lizard King.

Ha, ha, ha, the depths of the human experience and still such a sliver of it.




All of these things you listed are perfect examples of distractions humans use to pretend like there is meaning.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleStranger
synthetic rthyme
Male
Registered: 09/06/99
Posts: 496
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: The Struggle [Re: 4896744]
    #14661351 - 06/23/11 06:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
We all face the constant struggle of trying to create meaning for ourselves. Every thing we strive for is something we view as meaningful. By viewing things as meaningful we are attempting to deny our inherent lack of meaning and unavoidable demise. It is too much for us to accept. We all feel too special to accept it.





Interesting, yet maybe it's humans who burdan ourselves by putting meaning into inanimate objects or intangible concepts. Such as when we put that car on a pedestal or when we follow a cult leader in a vain attempt to find answers. Some say this struggle for meaning is a result of our atomized and individualist urban culture, but maybe it's just a human condition of living in this world we do. The gnostics always taught about shedding the body as a useless vesal on the road to higher attainment.


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite." Huxley

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Struggle [Re: SlashOZ]
    #14661356 - 06/23/11 06:01 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:


Instead of viewing life as meaningless try viewing it as entirely full of meaning. That way you can justify responding to my posts or even creating posts of your own. As it stands now you are essentially contradicting yourself in your actions.




How can I view it as full of meaning when I realize that giving things "meaning" is just a game that humans play to make themselves feel important? Also, I am not contradicting myself. I never claimed that the OP doesn't apply to me. It most definitely does. This very debate i am having with you is just an attempt to give meaning to my life. The problem is that I consciously realize what I am doing.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleStranger
synthetic rthyme
Male
Registered: 09/06/99
Posts: 496
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: The Struggle [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #14661365 - 06/23/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
"But to the point why put such thought in it."
Because I go so far as to see meaning as 'cause and effect', what is as inherent in an interactive environment as it is within us while we interact.
Most users here deny the inherence of meaning anywhere.





But what ought to be surely does not always follow what is, therefore, your definition of meaning, is in fact, not meaningful :laugh: :eek:


--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite." Huxley

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Offline4896744
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Re: The Struggle [Re: Stranger]
    #14661375 - 06/23/11 06:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Stranger said:
Quote:

iThink said:
We all face the constant struggle of trying to create meaning for ourselves. Every thing we strive for is something we view as meaningful. By viewing things as meaningful we are attempting to deny our inherent lack of meaning and unavoidable demise. It is too much for us to accept. We all feel too special to accept it.





Interesting, yet maybe it's humans who burdan ourselves by putting meaning into inanimate objects or intangible concepts. Such as when we put that car on a pedestal or when we follow a cult leader in a vain attempt to find answers. Some say this struggle for meaning is a result of our atomized and individualist urban culture, but maybe it's just a human condition of living in this world we do. The gnostics always taught about shedding the body as a useless vesal on the road to higher attainment.




It applies to meaning we attribute to everything. It is also a human condition imo. Humans have such a high level of consciousness that we are in a sense "gods" of our own world. We have the capability to imagine and to create. However, at the same time we realize that we are mortal animals fated for death and decay. We are in a sense trapped in our own bodies, and it terrifies us.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

Edited by iThink (06/23/11 06:06 PM)

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InvisibleSlashOZ
:D
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Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
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Re: The Struggle [Re: 4896744]
    #14661385 - 06/23/11 06:08 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:


Instead of viewing life as meaningless try viewing it as entirely full of meaning. That way you can justify responding to my posts or even creating posts of your own. As it stands now you are essentially contradicting yourself in your actions.




How can I view it as full of meaning when I realize that giving things "meaning" is just a game that humans play to make themselves feel important? Also, I am not contradicting myself. I never claimed that the OP doesn't apply to me. It most definitely does. This very debate i am having with you is just an attempt to give meaning to my life. The problem is that I consciously realize what I am doing.




It sure seems like there is a whole bunch of meaning going on here. This debate is giving meaning to your life, you admit this. You admit that poetry, music, etc. give meaning to human life. Why do you insist that there is no meaning because we die?

I guess I just don't see why you would want to propagate the negative side of the coin here. The fact that we die gives this life meaning by giving us a short time frame to do thangs. If we lived forever nothing would matter, there would be no necessity or urgency to do anything. Death is meaningless, life is meaningful.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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InvisibleStranger
synthetic rthyme
Male
Registered: 09/06/99
Posts: 496
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: The Struggle [Re: Stranger]
    #14661391 - 06/23/11 06:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If meaning is something that people imbue into things that affect us, and the people around us, on a personal level, than what characteristic of that meaning is important to us besides our own selfish inclinations?



--------------------
"If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite." Huxley

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