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Offlinethebeesknees
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first pan cyan grow
    #14653882 - 06/22/11 12:33 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hey friends..... I have successfully completed a few bulk cube grows and would like to move on to pan cyans.

At the moment my plan is to create a malt dextrose LC from a multispore syringe.  Then I will use this LC to colonize quart jars of rye soaked in a coffee solution.  After these finish I plan to spawn them to a mixture of 60% cow pop 30% verm 10% coffee in a monotub. After colonization I will case with a peat verm mix.  In the monotub I am hoping to keep humidity relatively high until I see pins and then loosen my polyfill in order to allow for more FAE during the fruiting stage.

Now for my questions

1. I have been looking at spores for both Panaeolus cyanescens, and Panaeolus cambodginiensis.  How exactly do they compare to each other? From my research I believe that they are grown the same way but Panaeolus cambodginiensis are slightly more potent. 

2. Should I try to use agar? I have been thinking about it but it seems pans are difficult to isolate and I don't want to end up with a non meeting strain.  Should I try agar with cubes first to get the hang of it?

3. Is using a monotub a bad idea? It seems most people use trays but for cubes I have always done much better with tubs.  I was thinking 3-4 inches deep, I know recommendation is 1.5-2 but I believe the depth corresponds to surface area.

4. Can I dunk my bulk substrate between flushes?

If there are any other tips you could add it would be greatly appreciated.

-thebeesknees

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InvisibleUnnamedGrower
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14653910 - 06/22/11 12:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

1 pan cambo grow the same as cyans but are more potent
2. dont fuck around with agar for pans you might end up with a non fruiting isolate and you should have experienced isolating a cube first off
3.bad idea imho and that depth of sub is way too deep dont go deeper than 1.5 inches with pans
4. yes dunk for sure or heavy misting

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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14653994 - 06/22/11 12:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the quick reply.  Could you elaborate on why you would not use a mono tub and what you believe is optimal.  I was under the impression that with pan trays you should have 1.5 inch depth but that as you increase surface area you should also increase depth accordingly... was I misinformed?

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14654010 - 06/22/11 01:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ive never heard this depth according to surface area:shrug:  I know for a fact that mono's dont work too well for pans and wouldnt suggest something difficult like this for your first pan grow

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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14654061 - 06/22/11 01:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Alright so would you recommend 1.5in trays in a shotgun?

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14654091 - 06/22/11 01:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes this is what I suggest for sure

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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14659226 - 06/23/11 12:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for all the help... One more question.. when I make my LC should I shake it or not.  I've heard pans don't really like to be shaken but I was unsure if that only applied to grains.

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OfflineManicMongrel
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14660346 - 06/23/11 02:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Pan mycelia is very fragile, I dont think shaking the culture is a good idea. Considering that the oxygen level could be very low in a LC, its probably not best to shock the mycelia.

There is no point in shaking colonizing substrate, all pan grow very fast anyway. If you shake it there will be a recovering period before they start spreading again.

One thing to keep in mind with all panaeolus is that they consume a LOT of oxygen, that is why they love fluffy airy substrates. They are very prone to mold if you have bad air exchange its also the #1 reason of stalled colonization, if the circulation and CO2 ventilation is good they have pretty good resistance, especially in dung substrates.

If you want to use deep substrates you need a shallow substrate like straw with lots of big air pockets for convection currents to travel through, top surface area is also important so again keep in mind that this fungus breath heavily.


--------------------
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Edited by ManicMongrel (06/23/11 02:42 PM)

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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: ManicMongrel]
    #14660618 - 06/23/11 03:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the info that is very interesting.  I am wary to use straw because I have heard it contact easily.  I think I will keep my trays shadow for this grow and maybe try a mini monotub to compare results.

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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14660667 - 06/23/11 03:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry I meant contam not contact and shallow not shadow

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InvisibleUnnamedGrower
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14661597 - 06/23/11 07:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

thebeesknees said:
Thanks for all the help... One more question.. when I make my LC should I shake it or not.  I've heard pans don't really like to be shaken but I was unsure if that only applied to grains.



Uhm thats bs advice yes pan myc is weak but you need to shake your LC up to break apart the glob of myc your gonna get:shrug:  Or if your high class use a stir plate

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14662212 - 06/23/11 09:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

UnnamedGrower said:
I know for a fact that mono's dont work too well for pans




Check your facts, because people do it, and there's no reason not to. I made a few monotubs for my first attempt at pan cambos, and it turned out fine. If you have a martha then I would use it, but you don't need one.


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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: prismism] * 1
    #14662426 - 06/23/11 09:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

prismism said:
Quote:

UnnamedGrower said:
I know for a fact that mono's dont work too well for pans




Check your facts, because people do it, and there's no reason not to. I made a few monotubs for my first attempt at pan cambos, and it turned out fine. If you have a martha then I would use it, but you don't need one.



I never sd it wont work but why would u suggest an impractical tek for a noob?  One that many exp[eoirenced gropwers have failed at?  You go chk your facts and find out that many more ppl have failed than succeded with mono's of pans?

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: prismism]
    #14664283 - 06/24/11 08:26 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'm a fan of monotubs too, I dont get why so many pro cube growers complain about this. There is easy ways to grow Pan in monotubs, I did my first successful grow ever with pan in a monotub and it worked just fine through two flushes before the substrate was depleted.

I didn't make grow logs or take pictures so I cant really document my previous grows. I will next time though, so I finally have some solid stuff to refer too, so I can annoy naysayers properly.

When I grow pan in monotubs I stick to these principles and it dramatically increased my chance of success. Its all fairly standard.

1. Optimal air exchange
2. fluffy substrate with good air pockets
3. Stable temperature, in the optimal range, one temp for all(they are not cubes, all my grows points to pans actually benefit from a stable temperature. Believe what you want, but I highly recommend trying it)
4. Straw goes with dung, soak the straw in poop juice if you don't like the green meanie.
5. Stable humidity in the 90'ties, they like it damp.


--------------------
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- Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention! New asian pan varieties up for trade [10.july.2013]

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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: ManicMongrel]
    #14665268 - 06/24/11 12:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Wow this has really turned into a debate thread haha.  I guess I should probably add some straw if I wanna do a mono.  Is these a specific type of straw I should be looking for?  Also one of the main reasons I am focused on a monotub is because I actually have a very hard time fruiting cubes in trays (a little embarrassing haha) but my monos have always done stellar.

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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14665663 - 06/24/11 01:58 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

So I have been looking at pan mono grows and a lot of them look quite nice it most seem to produce very small mushrooms.  One thing I am worried about is the fact that I will not be around to fan these all day.  If I set up a cool mist to my mini monos or make a Martha would I be able to get away with fanning around once a day?

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14666540 - 06/24/11 04:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Don't pans need a LOT of FAE? More so that cubes?


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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wing]
    #14666681 - 06/24/11 05:22 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes that is correct

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14666710 - 06/24/11 05:29 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I would get a good misting timer schedule going with a fan in the room. Experiment with hole size and polyfil tightness/looseness. And still fan 1-2 a day to thoroughly remove CO2.


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Offlinethebeesknees
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wing]
    #14666815 - 06/24/11 05:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

When you say a mist timer do you mean a humidifier on a timer? I'm getting slightly turned off from the mono tubs right now can anyone list the pros and cons for pans in.different types of fruiting chambers?

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: thebeesknees]
    #14666836 - 06/24/11 05:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That's exactly what I mean. Do pans like drier conditions? I basically gave advice for automating your setup lol

Man truthfully if I were to try pans in a monotub. I would make 2" holes. stuffed with polyfil to where its barely clinging on. Maybe drill some smaller holes in the bottom like a SGFC and raise your modified SG/Mono off the floor so that air can go through the bottom. I'd add perlite to my sub to make it more airy and try to keep the substrate depth shallow to avoid any packing.

I'd set up a fan in the room to constantly blow air indirectly at the mono. And manually mist if they like drier conditions.


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Offlinestankdank
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wing]
    #14666996 - 06/24/11 06:34 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Good luck im dieing to grow some cyan's.

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: stankdank] * 1
    #14668461 - 06/24/11 11:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I grow pans now, i grew cubes for about 2 months go bored moved onto these. I first made agar plates around 10 different ones, 2 lost to contam other's i isolated 3 times per plate, i then made a LC with an agar wedge and put a piece into the wbs jar. pan myc is fragile but i shook my jars like there was no tomorrow and the recovered perfectly fine.

As for depths im using aluminium trays which are about 1.5inch depth in total, ive heard people say pan myc eat the trays im yet to see this happen and yet to see any form of decomposition against them.

I use a PMP for my fruiting chamber, pumps running 24/7, the lid of my pmp has 4  35cm strips of SMD5050 LED strip's, running on a 12/12 cycle. I am currently in winter so my room drops pretty drastically so i have a submersible aquarium heater in my pmp to create a more "tropical" environment thou i have not used it much lately but i cycle it now and then when i remember.

The trays them selves are prepared with aged horse manure, verm. Pasteurized  for 2 hours, once the jars are ready they are spawned into the trays covered with foil and holes poked in the top with micropore tape covering them. I currently have 6 trays incubating its been a bit slow due to the heat but they're almost ready to be cased with a thin layer of peat moss/fine verm/coir coir. This is left for 24/48 hours then placed into the FC mist like theres no tomorrow let the top layer absorb as much as it can dont water log it. Leave it and keep it reasonably moist, when you see pins stop. And you should see fruits.

First flush, while the yield wasnt amazing i was still happy with the result some fruits are better than none.


Second flush, they look better formed but obviously not as many and the sub look a bit mangled from the initial flushes pickings.



I think my yield for my first time was due to my casing layer it was rather thick so my next few trays will have a much thinner layer applied, and i will wait longer i only waited 12 hours with this tray i will wait 48 this time.

Edited by semaphore (06/24/11 11:40 PM)

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: semaphore]
    #14668722 - 06/25/11 01:10 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Use a shotgun mono hybrid if your going to do bigger subs of pans as it has the best FAE.

Edited by PinsWellWithOthers (06/25/11 01:10 AM)

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: PinsWellWithOthers]
    #14668796 - 06/25/11 01:37 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I was planing on some pans cyan growing, however, it would now seem that pans cambo is more potent so I may try that instead. Is there any reason, aside from potency, that you would grow one instead of the other?

Is damion5050 coir tek suitable for pans or do I have to use straw/poo?

I really want to do a monotub, do pans need a casing layer?

Im rather experienced with agar work by this point, within this thread Iv heard that isolation isnt suitable for pans. Why not simply isolate down to 6 different monocultures and save them in cultubes with strict labeling procedures. Use each of the strains to colonize a grain jar and make that into a casing. The casing that performs the best will be used from then on. Alternatively couldnt you clone the fastest growing pans?

Assuming some of you have managed to get pans on agar, how long do pans take? By that I mean, if you were to make a grain master and use that via G2G to make 10 other jars(which usually takes less than 5 days for me once I have performed the G2G using cubes) how long?

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wise Toad]
    #14668826 - 06/25/11 01:44 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I am going to grow cambo's aswell, but from potency point of view, cyans are still pretty fucking strong.

They are a dung species so a coir only substrate will not be that viable, not sure if anyone has tried thou.

I saw growth on my agar plates within the first 4/5 days

first plate:



isolate of the above plate:

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: semaphore]
    #14668865 - 06/25/11 02:00 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Not coir only, coir/verm(if thats what you mean, if not my bad:ohwell:). I thought that coir/verm was a viable substitute for poo, considering cubes are a dung loving species which grow just fine on coir/verm :confused2:

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wise Toad]
    #14668894 - 06/25/11 02:08 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

coir+verm does not have the beneficial bacteria/minerals that pans need. You can try if you want but i doubt they would fruit.

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: semaphore]
    #14668924 - 06/25/11 02:25 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

maybe use cow manure as supplement ?, since it turns almost in to dirt when water is added .


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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: semaphore]
    #14668952 - 06/25/11 02:47 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe Ill just do some trays, still wondering if pans need casings

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14668964 - 06/25/11 02:52 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

UnnamedGrower said:
Quote:

prismism said:
Quote:

UnnamedGrower said:
I know for a fact that mono's dont work too well for pans




Check your facts, because people do it, and there's no reason not to. I made a few monotubs for my first attempt at pan cambos, and it turned out fine. If you have a martha then I would use it, but you don't need one.



I never sd it wont work but why would u suggest an impractical tek for a noob?  One that many exp[eoirenced gropwers have failed at?  You go chk your facts and find out that many more ppl have failed than succeded with mono's of pans?




What's hard about a pan monotub? I just did a few that I didn't set up any different than I would have for cubes. Easy, no contams, nothing.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14570978

I even made two uncased minitubs just to show how easy it is.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14576636


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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wise Toad]
    #14669112 - 06/25/11 05:06 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wise Toad said:
Maybe Ill just do some trays, still wondering if pans need casings




yes they do, usually  peat/verm/gypsum/hydrated lime


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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wise Toad]
    #14669187 - 06/25/11 05:54 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

semaphore said:
I grow pans now, i grew cubes for about 2 months go bored moved onto these. I first made agar plates around 10 different ones, 2 lost to contam other's i isolated 3 times per plate, i then made a LC with an agar wedge and put a piece into the wbs jar. pan myc is fragile but i shook my jars like there was no tomorrow and the recovered perfectly fine.

As for depths im using aluminium trays which are about 1.5inch depth in total, ive heard people say pan myc eat the trays im yet to see this happen and yet to see any form of decomposition against them.

I use a PMP for my fruiting chamber, pumps running 24/7, the lid of my pmp has 4  35cm strips of SMD5050 LED strip's, running on a 12/12 cycle. I am currently in winter so my room drops pretty drastically so i have a submersible aquarium heater in my pmp to create a more "tropical" environment thou i have not used it much lately but i cycle it now and then when i remember.

The trays them selves are prepared with aged horse manure, verm. Pasteurized  for 2 hours, once the jars are ready they are spawned into the trays covered with foil and holes poked in the top with micropore tape covering them. I currently have 6 trays incubating its been a bit slow due to the heat but they're almost ready to be cased with a thin layer of peat moss/fine verm/coir coir. This is left for 24/48 hours then placed into the FC mist like theres no tomorrow let the top layer absorb as much as it can dont water log it. Leave it and keep it reasonably moist, when you see pins stop. And you should see fruits.

First flush, while the yield wasnt amazing i was still happy with the result some fruits are better than none.


Second flush, they look better formed but obviously not as many and the sub look a bit mangled from the initial flushes pickings.



I think my yield for my first time was due to my casing layer it was rather thick so my next few trays will have a much thinner layer applied, and i will wait longer i only waited 12 hours with this tray i will wait 48 this time.



The myc will eat thru the al foil trays.  It happens to me all the time
Quote:

Wise Toad said:
I was planing on some pans cyan growing, however, it would now seem that pans cambo is more potent so I may try that instead. Is there any reason, aside from potency, that you would grow one instead of the other?

Is damion5050 coir tek suitable for pans or do I have to use straw/poo?

I really want to do a monotub, do pans need a casing layer?

Im rather experienced with agar work by this point, within this thread Iv heard that isolation isnt suitable for pans. Why not simply isolate down to 6 different monocultures and save them in cultubes with strict labeling procedures. Use each of the strains to colonize a grain jar and make that into a casing. The casing that performs the best will be used from then on. Alternatively couldnt you clone the fastest growing pans?

Assuming some of you have managed to get pans on agar, how long do pans take? By that I mean, if you were to make a grain master and use that via G2G to make 10 other jars(which usually takes less than 5 days for me once I have performed the G2G using cubes) how long?



Coir or coir/verm will not work with pans you need manure you can add some coir to it but you need to use the :poop: man and you do need a casing layer

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14669409 - 06/25/11 07:56 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well like i said i have not seen any eating of my trays, and my trays are going through their third flush now. Tray integrity is still 100% perhaps my trays are more durable :shrug:

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: semaphore]
    #14669437 - 06/25/11 08:08 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

semaphore said:
Well like i said i have not seen any eating of my trays, and my trays are going through their third flush now. Tray integrity is still 100% perhaps my trays are more durable :shrug:



Yea that could be it.  I buy cheap trays for this.  3 for a buck with lids

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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: CaptainAhab]
    #14669850 - 06/25/11 10:38 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

eLShaMukO said:
Quote:

Wise Toad said:
Maybe Ill just do some trays, still wondering if pans need casings




yes they do, usually  peat/verm/gypsum/hydrated lime



Now Im even more confused because CA said uncased worked fine for him:
Quote:

CaptainAhab said:
I even made two uncased minitubs just to show how easy it is.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14576636




In any case, Iv only done d5050 coir tek thusfar for monos. Which teks do you guys use to prepare your poo?

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InvisibleUnnamedGrower
The AMUiest
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Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 7,146
Loc: I'll be where I'm at
Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wise Toad]
    #14669915 - 06/25/11 10:53 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wise Toad said:
Quote:

eLShaMukO said:
Quote:

Wise Toad said:
Maybe Ill just do some trays, still wondering if pans need casings




yes they do, usually  peat/verm/gypsum/hydrated lime



Now Im even more confused because CA said uncased worked fine for him:
Quote:

CaptainAhab said:
I even made two uncased minitubs just to show how easy it is.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14576636




In any case, Iv only done d5050 coir tek thusfar for monos. Which teks do you guys use to prepare your poo?



I dont think too many ppl get good results if any with uncased cyans:shrug:

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OfflineCaptainAhab


Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 1,875
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14670544 - 06/25/11 01:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

UnnamedGrower said:
Quote:

Wise Toad said:
Quote:

eLShaMukO said:
Quote:

Wise Toad said:
Maybe Ill just do some trays, still wondering if pans need casings




yes they do, usually  peat/verm/gypsum/hydrated lime



Now Im even more confused because CA said uncased worked fine for him:
Quote:

CaptainAhab said:
I even made two uncased minitubs just to show how easy it is.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14576636




In any case, Iv only done d5050 coir tek thusfar for monos. Which teks do you guys use to prepare your poo?



I dont think too many ppl get good results if any with uncased cyans:shrug:




Try it out for yourself and see. They don't need a casing. It's actually pretty cool watchin' it grow like a cube.

In my tubs, the most dense patches of growth came on the sides, where there was no casing, at all. And in the mini-tubs, well, they weren't cased at all.

In fact, you could say that both my tubs and mini-tubs were experiments. I wanted to test out the monotub idea, since it was so easy, as well as having a ZERO maintenance mini-tub that I completely neglected. Seriously, I walked around the house with the mini-tub, never misted it, didn't give it a lot of FAE, no casing, etc. The pans said "fuck you, I'm growing, anyways."


--------------------

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OfflineWing
The Eye Tyrant
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Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 3,293
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: CaptainAhab]
    #14670591 - 06/25/11 01:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CaptainAhab said:
Seriously, I walked around the house with the mini-tub, never misted it, didn't give it a lot of FAE, no casing, etc. The pans said "fuck you, I'm growing, anyways."





:laugh2:


--------------------
My Old Grow Logs


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InvisibleUnnamedGrower
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Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 7,146
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Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: Wing]
    #14670707 - 06/25/11 02:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Captain Ahab do you have the recipe of what you spawned your pans to and what type of p[ans were they?

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OfflineCaptainAhab


Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 1,875
Last seen: 6 years, 11 months
Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: UnnamedGrower]
    #14671143 - 06/25/11 04:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

UnnamedGrower said:
Captain Ahab do you have the recipe of what you spawned your pans to and what type of p[ans were they?




Yeah, they were pan cyans (Jamaicans), grown on rye berries in quart jars, spawned to

In the tubs:
70% store bought composted cow manure, 30% vermiculite, with no additives. Cased with 50/50 verm/peat and added lime

In the mini tubs:
70% Hoffman's Organic Cow Manure (bought online), 30% verm, no additives.

All substrate was pasteurized in quart jars on the stove. It took a while, but it avoided using a pillow, spawn bags, etc. Easy as can be.


--------------------

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Offlinethebeesknees
Stranger
Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 18
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: first pan cyan grow [Re: CaptainAhab]
    #14691125 - 06/29/11 10:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Ahab, would you mind telling me how many grams your full sized tubs produced.  In your log the you don't show how the tub with better air exchange fruited and I was curious of it did better than the other which appeared to only fruit on the sides. also  did you ever end up experimenting with substrate depth? If so, what were your results?

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